When to count AFL premierships, and NOT AFL/VFL ones?

[ghostbat12]

BINGO!

As much as newbies want this very plain fact to be ignored, the AFL is proud of its 100+ year history and league records will remain intact for as long as the league exists.

haha since when does when someone is a newbie or not matters? does it make you feel like you have made some imaginary point by saying that?

noone is really saying history should be ignored. geelong, carlton etc after all did win those competitions.

question is, say in 50 years time, will AFL premerishops have more of an impact than VFL premierships? will players and fans then, who would most likely will not know and be completely disconnected with old VFL when walking past a trophy cabinet be proud and inspired in same way by cups which have VFL on or AFL on it?

people use premiership tally to knock other fans down but ignore that if another team has a higher tally than them. besides, i doubt most fans know who has won many cups and how many. most fans just want to watch the game. not interested in draft, BF etc.

 

[favourites]

We may as well wait until we get the 18 teams, then we can start counting flags. No point winning the flags in the next few years, they aren't counted.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

question is, say in 50 years time, will AFL premerishops have more of an impact than VFL premierships?

Esssendon has won 16 premierships in a competition it has consistently been in since 1897. All of them count the same.

Time does not diminish whatever they have managed to achieve in the past. A win is a win.

 

[Armitage2Riewoldt]

I found it funny that hardly any (if any at all) Saints or Dogs fans posted in here. Much less Freo, Richmond and Melbourne.

They should still count.

Just don't gloat too much about flags that were won 50 years before you were born, please XD

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Well, no, but that's not what I was asking.

Geelong was originally in the VFA, whilst in the VFA Geelong won 7 premierships,they were then one of the 8 breakaways that formed the original VFL.
The VFA was re-badged as the VFL in whatever year it was. Geelong has a reserves side that plays in the VFL. Does that mean that they can claim the 7 VFA premierships since it's essentially the same comp just with a different name?
If that is the case then either Geelong has 9 VFA premierships or they have 7 VFA premierships and 2 VFL premierships or they have 7 VFA premierships, 8 VFL premierships (6 by the senior team in the then VFL and one by the reserves in the revamped VFA in 2002 and 2007) and 2 AFL premierships.

The VFL premierships count alongside the VFA premierships. For the purposes of this exercise, it would be VFA/VFL premierships whereas in terms of what we are talking about it is VFL/AFL premierships. The VFA changing name to the VFL just needlessly confused the issue.

Having said that, the Geelong VFL side are not the Geelong side that left the VFA to join the VFL, now AFL. They would be more like the Port Magpies side that replaced the old Port side that left the SANFL to join the AFL. The AFL entity has a long and proud history in two different competitions. The now VFL entity has a shorter history. They are two different teams so the Geelong VFL side's history starts from the time they first came into the VFA/VFL. I would separate the two VFA/VFL records on that basis. With Port, some separate, some join them together and quote them as two different sides under the one umbrella entity, that being Port Adelaide Football Club Inc or whatever it is. The right thing is to consider them two separate entities and it also helps to let people know that the Power are the historical Port Adelaide.

 

[tigers_of_old_08]

So we should wipe out a chunk of a clubs histroy? Based the letter "V"?

Good grief, it IS the off-season.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

So we should wipe out a chunk of a clubs histroy? Based the letter "V"?

Good grief, it IS the off-season.

They are not saying to wipe out that history, they are just saying to consign it to history, as in not mention it as part of current records.

It was alluded to earlier but must be restated. Most of the current day AFL clubs that played under the VFL banner, contributed greatly to the success of the VFL competition, and therefore contributed greatly to the product that went national. Without the input of those teams, there either would not be a national competition, or it would be a fairly sterile shell of a manufactured competition.

 

[krusden]

haha since when does when someone is a newbie or not matters? does it make you feel like you have made some imaginary point by saying that?

noone is really saying history should be ignored. geelong, carlton etc after all did win those competitions.

question is, say in 50 years time, will AFL premerishops have more of an impact than VFL premierships? will players and fans then, who would most likely will not know and be completely disconnected with old VFL when walking past a trophy cabinet be proud and inspired in same way by cups which have VFL on or AFL on it?

people use premiership tally to knock other fans down but ignore that if another team has a higher tally than them. besides, i doubt most fans know who has won many cups and how many. most fans just want to watch the game. not interested in draft, BF etc.

if your side played in the vfl then yes. If your side did not then probably not. Also if you are not a keen student of history then probably not.
Most people are aware of the history of the VFL/AFL and therefore shall in 50 years time still nod towards the VFL premierships as much as the AFL premierships.
I also believe that you are wrong. MOST fans would have a keen idea of who won how many cups. If not, you could rightly say they were disrespectful of the history of our game.

 

[zero]

Adding VFL premierships to AFL premierships is a lot like adding 14 apples to 1 orange and saying "we have 15 oranges"

It makes it then hypocritical when they turn around and shout "YOU CANT DO THAT" when port fans add their 34 bananas to their one orange

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Adding VFL premierships to AFL premierships is a lot like adding 14 apples to 1 orange and saying "we have 15 oranges"

It makes it then hypocritical when they turn around and shout "YOU CANT DO THAT" when port fans add their 34 bananas to their one orange

So you are saying that the name change represented such a change so as to become a different product altogether?

You want analogies, how about you tackle my Widget making exercise earlier in the thread?

 

[Rosstickle]

Adding VFL premierships to AFL premierships is a lot like adding 14 apples to 1 orange and saying "we have 15 oranges"

It makes it then hypocritical when they turn around and shout "YOU CANT DO THAT" when port fans add their 34 bananas to their one orange

Wrong.

It would be like taking 14 Grannie Smith apples. Then changing the name of Grannie Smith apples to Grannie Oakley-Nichols and then adding one "Grannie Oakley-Nichols" apple to your collection of 14 Grannie Smiths.

The Port fans would still be adding bananas trying to pass them off as the same.

 

[Monkey King]

haha since when does when someone is a newbie or not matters? does it make you feel like you have made some imaginary point by saying that?

Well if there were no new clubs this wouldn't be an issue. It's relevance is undeniable.

question is, say in 50 years time, will AFL premerishops have more of an impact than VFL premierships?

In 50 years time the 1989 flag will rightly be held in the same esteem as the 1990 flag. The history of the comp will be a continuous 150+ years and the desire to draw distinction will have well and truly faded.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Wrong.

It would be like taking 14 Grannie Smith apples. Then changing the name of Grannie Smith apples to Grannie Oakley-Nichols and then adding one "Grannie Oakley-Nichols" apple to your collection of 14 Grannie Smiths.

The Port fans would still be adding bananas trying to pass them off as the same.

This works for me. Except you change the name of Granny Smith apples and export them to another market. They are still Granny Smith apples when all is said and done.

 

[estibador]

This works for me. Except you change the name of Granny Smith apples and export them to another market. They are still Granny Smith apples when all is said and done.

Actually I'd say it would be more like genetically modifying the Granny Smith apples into an even tastier apple and renaming them Super Granny Smith apples. And then adding your 10 Granny Smith apples to your 1 Super Granny Smith apple and trying to say you have 11 Super Granny Smith apples.

They might share common DNA but they aren't the same thing.

I have no problem with Vic teams counting their VFL flags as long as they count them as such - ie Essendon have X amount of VFL flags and X amount of AFL flags.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Actually I'd say it would be more like genetically modifying the Granny Smith apples into an even tastier apple and renaming them Super Granny Smith apples. And then adding your 10 Granny Smith apples to your 1 Super Granny Smith apple and trying to say you have 11 Super Granny Smith apples.

They are still Granny Smith Apples, just improved with modern technology, and rebranded to make them more appealling to the consumer.

One might argue that Gary Abletts Brownlow is less worthy than Tony Liberatore's Brownlow because Gazza had access to better quality footy boots or a better quality bench press. Not too mention better quality teammates to make him look good!!!! But they still have one Brownlow each and no amount of revisionist history will change that.

Every single season since 1897 has been different to every other. Its called progress. The game even five years ago is unrecognisable - rules, tactics, training methods - the game ten years agp even more foreign. The game 30 years ago is unwatchable. But its still the same game in the same league. Its just different.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Actually I'd say it would be more like genetically modifying the Granny Smith apples into an even tastier apple and renaming them Super Granny Smith apples. And then adding your 10 Granny Smith apples to your 1 Super Granny Smith apple and trying to say you have 11 Super Granny Smith apples.

They might share common DNA but they aren't the same thing.

I have no problem with Vic teams counting their VFL flags as long as they count them as such - ie Essendon have X amount of VFL flags and X amount of AFL flags.

Actually it would be like using the marketing slogan 'best apples in the world', then improving them further. Both statements are true. You can suggest that today's apples taste better than apples from back then but it was the old apple that you improve upon, not some different tree altogether, and thus you have been selling the best apples in the world since 1897.

Does anybody that is not into fruit want to address the NRL example? Do we just accept that Melbourne Storm, Newcastle Knights, Brisbane Broncos supporters are not as insecure as their AFL counterparts?

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

When pressed for an answer none of these interstate nuffnuffs can come up with a definitive answer of when the "AFL" actually started, ie the line in the sand for counting these premierships.

Was it when South Mebourne moved to Sydney?
or when West Coast and the Bears joined?
or when the VFL was rebranded?
or when the Eagles first won a premiership?
or when the Crows joined?
or when the Dockers joined?
or when the Lions merged with the Bears?
or was it the year games were first played in every state and territory?
or was it the year two interstate sides played off against each other in a GF?
or when the GC join?
or when Western Sydney join?
or is it when all these clubs have been in the competiton 10 or 20 years?

 

[estibador]

When pressed for an answer none of these interstate nuffnuffs can come up with a definitive answer of when the "AFL" actually started, ie the line in the sand for counting these premierships.

Go look at the premiership cups and the ones that say AFL are AFL premierships and the ones that say VFL are VFL premierships.

Your argument is like saying a child can never become an adult because there is no definitive line in the sand for when they turn from being a child to an adult. After all, why is an 18 year old suddenly an adult on their birthday but someone who is 17 and 364 days old not an adult? What's the difference right? According to your logic we are all children forever because we are the same person at 15 as we are at 17 and as we are at 19.

That's why we have to create arbitrary, albeit imperfect, cut-offs. In the case of a person it's when your birth certificate says you've turned 18 and in the case of a premiership it's when the cup says it's turned from VFL to AFL.

 

[im_a_lazy_sod]

Go look at the premiership cups and the ones that say AFL are AFL premierships and the ones that say VFL are VFL premierships.

Your argument is like saying a child can never become an adult because there is no definitive line in the sand for when they turn from being a child to an adult. After all, why is an 18 year old suddenly an adult on their birthday but someone who is 17 and 364 days old not an adult? What's the difference right? According to your logic we are all children forever because 15 is no different from 17 which is no different from 19.

That's why we have to create arbitrary, albeit imperfect, cut-offs. In the case of a person it's when your birth certificate says you've turned 18 and in the case of a premiership it's when the cup says it's turned from VFL to AFL.

beat me to it

when VFL became AFL is the best way to look at it

the premierships that we won before that date still count, though they are not as relevant as the ones won after that date

they are VFL and AFL Premierships seperatly NOT combined

e.g. saying Port have 1 AFL/VFL premiership is stupid because they never played a VFL game

I could go on =)

but when the VFL became the AFL is a good line to draw when counting flags

 

[Monkey King]

The funniest component of these threads is gifted by our Port Adelaide brothers, who insist that despite changing:

- their colours
- their name / mascot
- their theme song
- their supporters (life-long PA Magpie supporters who follow the Crows)
- where they play
- their league and therefore opposition clubs and traditional rivals

... are are somehow still the same club.


The AFL however changes one letter between 1989 and 1990 and suddenly it is an entirely new entity despite the following remaining the same:

- same traditional rivalries
- every team remaining except the merged Lions
- same team colours
- same team names / mascots
- same supporters
- same awards (Brownlow, Norm Smith, Coleman etc)
- same premiership cup (-v + a)

All we've done is invited a few new clubs to come and join the fun.


So go figure out how the AFL is an all new competition yet Port Power are a 100yo club

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Go look at the premiership cups and the ones that say AFL are AFL premierships and the ones that say VFL are VFL premierships.

Your argument is like saying a child can never become an adult because there is no definitive line in the sand for when they turn from being a child to an adult. After all, why is an 18 year old suddenly an adult on their birthday but someone who is 17 and 364 days old not an adult? What's the difference right? According to your logic we are all children forever because we are the same person at 15 as we are at 17 and as we are at 19.

That's why we have to create arbitrary, albeit imperfect, cut-offs. In the case of a person it's when your birth certificate says you've turned 18 and in the case of a premiership it's when the cup says it's turned from VFL to AFL.

You raise a good point but in making the analogy you inadvertently argue against what you want. That child becomes an adult at 18, but his next birthday is not his first. He will be 19. When the VFL became an adult, it was 93 years old. It has had 20 birthdays since and is now 113 seasons old. That child grew up, developed, even changed its name by deed poll. It's still the same child though.

 

[Monkey King]

According to your logic we are all children forever because we are the same person at 15 as we are at 17 and as we are at 19.

And according to others logic we become different people once we turn 18yo. I tell you right now, the child and adult are inextricably linked for life in body and mind. A single entity divided by perception of time. I cut you deep enough at you at 17yo and the scar will remain for life. Makes no difference whether you move to a new home town, make new friends or change your name.

This is VFL/AFL. Welcome! We're pleased you accepted the invitation to become a part of this long standing competition. If you like it, please stay and enjoy... if not, don't let the door hit you on the way out

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Go look at the premiership cups and the ones that say AFL are AFL premierships and the ones that say VFL are VFL premierships.

Its a very flimsy argement to rule the line on the basis of a simple name change. The sanfl has had numerous name changes over the years too. So did brian harris. So did "Whiskas" Hocking..

There is no discernable difference in merit betwee the flag won in 1989 and that won in 1990.

You need to come up with some better arguments than a corporate.name change to justify erasing 100 years of history.

 

[PortBrillance]

The funniest component of these threads is gifted by our Port Adelaide brothers, who insist that despite changing:

- their colours
- their name / mascot
- their theme song
- their supporters (life-long PA Magpie supporters who follow the Crows)
- where they play
- their league and therefore opposition clubs and traditional rivals

... are are somehow still the same club.


The AFL however changes one letter between 1989 and 1990 and suddenly it is an entirely new entity despite the following remaining the same:

- same traditional rivalries
- every team remaining except the merged Lions
- same team colours
- same team names / mascots
- same supporters
- same awards (Brownlow, Norm Smith, Coleman etc)
- same premiership cup (-v + a)

All we've done is invited a few new clubs to come and join the fun.


So go figure out how the AFL is an all new competition yet Port Power are a 100yo club

If you read this thread, many port fans agree with keeping the VFL/AFL records. It is funny when non-port people tell us our history.

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

Adding VFL premierships to AFL premierships is a lot like adding 14 apples to 1 orange and saying "we have 15 oranges"

It makes it then hypocritical when they turn around and shout "YOU CANT DO THAT" when port fans add their 34 bananas to their one orange

Wrong.

It would be like taking 14 Grannie Smith apples. Then changing the name of Grannie Smith apples to Grannie Oakley-Nichols and then adding one "Grannie Oakley-Nichols" apple to your collection of 14 Grannie Smiths.

The Port fans would still be adding bananas trying to pass them off as the same.

This works for me. Except you change the name of Granny Smith apples and export them to another market. They are still Granny Smith apples when all is said and done.

Actually I'd say it would be more like genetically modifying the Granny Smith apples into an even tastier apple and renaming them Super Granny Smith apples. And then adding your 10 Granny Smith apples to your 1 Super Granny Smith apple and trying to say you have 11 Super Granny Smith apples.

They might share common DNA but they aren't the same thing.

I have no problem with Vic teams counting their VFL flags as long as they count them as such - ie Essendon have X amount of VFL flags and X amount of AFL flags.

They are still Granny Smith Apples, just improved with modern technology, and rebranded to make them more appealling to the consumer.

One might argue that Gary Abletts Brownlow is less worthy than Tony Liberatore's Brownlow because Gazza had access to better quality footy boots or a better quality bench press. Not too mention better quality teammates to make him look good!!!! But they still have one Brownlow each and no amount of revisionist history will change that.

Every single season since 1897 has been different to every other. Its called progress. The game even five years ago is unrecognisable - rules, tactics, training methods - the game ten years agp even more foreign. The game 30 years ago is unwatchable. But its still the same game in the same league. Its just different.

Actually it would be like using the marketing slogan 'best apples in the world', then improving them further. Both statements are true. You can suggest that today's apples taste better than apples from back then but it was the old apple that you improve upon, not some different tree altogether, and thus you have been selling the best apples in the world since 1897.

Does anybody that is not into fruit want to address the NRL example? Do we just accept that Melbourne Storm, Newcastle Knights, Brisbane Broncos supporters are not as insecure as their AFL counterparts?

Two points.

After all of that can someone please tell me how much it is for a birthday cake and how much for the gst?

Genetically modified crops have been banned.