Analysis Where to from here?

[My Tilly]

No they won’t. Using that logic hawthorn’s flags from the 80s have an asterisk because there was no interstate travel and 6 less teams to compete with.

May as well scrub away every single flag won up until the mid 80's given many footballers also had a weekly job. Sound good?

 

[PhatBoy]

May as well scrub away every single flag won up until the mid 80's given many footballers also had a weekly job. Sound good?

That’s the logic being applied.

did every team play the same amount of games last year under the same rules with the same clock? We play in a competition where the good get penalised and the poor get helped. Every year there is something circumstantial that helps some clubs and disadvantages others. Richmond came out of that the best, they won, they deserved it.

 

[Turbocat]

Where to from here??
Onwards towards 2022.
Simple answer to a silly question.
Too many DOOM & GLOOM FALLING SKY WOLF CALLERS on here for my liking.
So we finished up the 3rd or 4th best team in 2021.
Yes Yes we lost the Prelim to Melb.
But in all seriousness how many thought we'd win?? Not me!! Maybe 10% 20%... thats pretty much sums it up.
Majority on this board without blinkers on would have thought after the loss of Stewart MOC and then Parfitt we were pushing the proverbial shish kebab up hill.
We lost... yes we lost. I really couldn't give a rats if it was by 80 points 50 points or 2 points. same result. people for some reason think coz it was 80 points it somehow means we are at the cliffs edge. I say bollocks!
We were beaten by a better team on the night. Congrats to them, well deserved.
So where do we go from here you ask?
Scotty & Co will go away and start on the tweaking, adjusting, formulating a new strategy of a game plan.
U don't like Scotty u say?? Well bad luck .... he's got another year. If he leaves it will his replacement with his ideas. either way the game plan/s will be different. How much?? How so?? Don't know, we shall see.


What i am sure of is...
They will add most likely 3 extra young ones to the mix and maybe a veteran thru free agency or via trade.
If Clark & Narkle stay under these circumstances great... If not so be it. We move on.
The likes of Krueger, SDK, Stephens, Stevens, Evans & even Okunbor will get plenty of looks along with maybe 1 or 2 we bring in through the draft.
What i'd like to see is us 2 target a mid or two in the free agent market or via trade as that's where games are won and lost IMO.
FWIW the name Paddy DOW has been mentioned to me a few times... but take that as u will.
Anyway... Are we a basket case??
NO! Far from it.
The haters are doing a great PILE ON at the moment through various media platforms. Great. Good on them. That'll give us more motivation.
Our 3 days of mourning is over.
Move On.
Cheers & GO CATS!

If put aside the chicken little idea for a second... yes you can take this years results and make justifications about they whys we failed. Me personally I had not great hopes and by the second quarter it was obvious that we were Port in the 07 GF. ..but its not just about this year imo. Most of the avalanche of commentary , even in the media is an accumulation of being ignored, and cast aside as (whatever carter called the unhappy grumblers) ... to me it was only a confirmation that we have attempted to do.. will not work, has failed. We have had a decade of alchemy attempts ... and have yet to produce a grain of gold. The mature approach and the way we play is now as valid as Beta and laserdisc. I do nkt believe CS could suddenly take the pledge and convert to a new way of playing. We have been tweaking at the edge for years and in the end its the same stuff.

the bottom of your post..

3 extra young ones of questionable standard. Has to be this year unless you are early but lets be hopeful. We get two right. A vet thru FA. Insane. Please no more
Id expect Clark and Narkle to go..and all we get is an open number to give to the next kid.

The term "plenty of looks" need specifics .. one game or two games like this year is just a insincere platitude towards a look. They need to decide who is our next best tall and play him..and persist. We will only know what we have after 2 or 3 season, and plenty of games where he fails. What is needed is to make at least 1/3rd of the team kids.. with 100 to 200 games ahead of them. Every game Higgins played this year is one someone young did not get.

Most of the commentry I have heard is not from haters. 3 Days and move on. Id say we cant move on. We are locked in...so id bet this type of commentary will be here for the next 365 days. No win next year will be completed without a who cares..if its done with this slow play and with an old side. I have watched a decade of meaningless wins.. and feel its been a waste. Right now id bet that Collingwood and North Melb may win a flag before us.


Dow? Depending on cost ..it would not be the worst trade. At least he is under 25

 

[Strange Cat]

Jimmy still have some relevance for us? Shame a few of these guys seem disassociated with the club... but then again we do have several still here.. but I think when Taylor starts saying something .......

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Geelong game plan needs to change to compete with best, says Jimmy Bartel
Geelong champion Jimmy Bartel says the Cats ‘can play the exact same way and they will be back in the finals’ next year but unless they change there will be no flag.

GEELONG champions Jimmy Bartel and Harry Taylor have both declared the Cats game plan needs a shake up to stop being a finals punching bag.
Geelong’s 83-point evisceration at the hands of Melbourne on Friday night came after a 43-point loss to Port Adelaide two weeks prior, following a pattern since 2016 of heavy defeats in finals.



GEELONG champions Jimmy Bartel and Harry Taylor have both declared the Cats game plan needs a shake up to stop being a finals punching bag.
Geelong’s 83-point evisceration at the hands of Melbourne on Friday night came after a 43-point loss to Port Adelaide two weeks prior, following a pattern since 2016 of heavy defeats in finals.

Patrick Dangerfield and the Cats were destroyed by Melbourne. Picture: Paul Kane/Getty Images
On both occasions Geelong set a new season-low for scoring, kicking a paltry 11 goals combined in the two losses.

In their 10 finals losses over the past six seasons, seven have been by at least 29 points and the Cats hold an average losing margin of 38 points.

Triple-premiership legend Bartel, who the GWS football director, said Geelong’s cautious game style was well suited to get them to finals but didn’t stack up under September heat.

While Bartel only suggested the club needed to “tinker” with its style, “the big question” would be whether this finals series was an aberration and can be easily fixed or a more permeant issue.

AFL Round 22. 17/08/2019. Carlton v St Kilda at the MCG. Jimmy Bartel in the 3AW box
“They can go and play the exact same way and they will be back in the finals (next year),” Bartel told RSN.

“It all depends on how you want to measure success and I don’t know how the board and the football department and the coaching staff and everyone there measures success (but) they will make finals if they go and play the exact same way.

“You go back to 2016 and if you are wanting to win finals by kicking 40 points, you are going to hope it is raining a lot.”

Taylor, who was speaking during the AFL Premiership Cup Tour in West Australia, said the Cats likely wouldn’t have the chance to made drastic list changes given their older brigade is generally contracted so the only way changes would be in game style.

“I do think they need to go and have a look at the game plan potentially and tinker with a few things,” the two-time premiership defender said.

“It is one of those cases potentially where you can’t go and change your list too much, they (Geelong) don’t have the capabilities to do that and it won’t necessarily help them immediately next year.

“It is important to just maybe try a few different things with the game plan over the pre-season and the off-season and front up and have another crack.”

Jordan Clark has been starved of opportunity. Picture: Michael Willson/AFL Photos via Getty Images
Younger players such as Jordan Clark and Quinton Narkle were frozen out of the Cats side at times this year and Bartel said needed to blend the young and old more.

Bartel said the duo could have played in the same side with the majority of the older group to give them a chance to shine.

“Why can’t they play with them? I don’t think it is one or the other,” he said.

“You can have the blend. Why isn’t Jordan Clark part of your back-six mix? You don’t need six players who are all slow with ball in hand and 6”3 on your halfback line.”

We need more of our champions to call it as they see it , hopefully Scott and the board read this article

 

[PhatBoy]

Something I’d like to see whether it is from Scott or the senior players or whoever, is a change in attitude mentally.

we have always been a side that sticks to process and each player trying to perform their role as the game plan dictates etc and our passion only ever seems to spill over when there’s a one on one confrontation on the field or a bit of a dust up.

weve seemingly avoided that snarling, kill anything that moves approach that some players and coaches seem to go for. You can’t make up for a team that is completely outclassed with anger and aggression and passion but you can make up some of the gap. We have some naturally aggressive players that might need to actually pull back a little bit, but overwhelmingly we seem like a team that doesn’t go out there with steam coming out it’s ears to be fierce and fearless. I wish that would change

 

[Jimmy Yamazaki]

Jimmy still have some relevance for us? Shame a few of these guys seem disassociated with the club... but then again we do have several still here.. but I think when Taylor starts saying something .......

No Cookies | Geelong Advertiser

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www.geelongadvertiser.com.au

Geelong game plan needs to change to compete with best, says Jimmy Bartel
Geelong champion Jimmy Bartel says the Cats ‘can play the exact same way and they will be back in the finals’ next year but unless they change there will be no flag.

GEELONG champions Jimmy Bartel and Harry Taylor have both declared the Cats game plan needs a shake up to stop being a finals punching bag.
Geelong’s 83-point evisceration at the hands of Melbourne on Friday night came after a 43-point loss to Port Adelaide two weeks prior, following a pattern since 2016 of heavy defeats in finals.



GEELONG champions Jimmy Bartel and Harry Taylor have both declared the Cats game plan needs a shake up to stop being a finals punching bag.
Geelong’s 83-point evisceration at the hands of Melbourne on Friday night came after a 43-point loss to Port Adelaide two weeks prior, following a pattern since 2016 of heavy defeats in finals.

Patrick Dangerfield and the Cats were destroyed by Melbourne. Picture: Paul Kane/Getty Images
On both occasions Geelong set a new season-low for scoring, kicking a paltry 11 goals combined in the two losses.

In their 10 finals losses over the past six seasons, seven have been by at least 29 points and the Cats hold an average losing margin of 38 points.

Triple-premiership legend Bartel, who the GWS football director, said Geelong’s cautious game style was well suited to get them to finals but didn’t stack up under September heat.

While Bartel only suggested the club needed to “tinker” with its style, “the big question” would be whether this finals series was an aberration and can be easily fixed or a more permeant issue.

AFL Round 22. 17/08/2019. Carlton v St Kilda at the MCG. Jimmy Bartel in the 3AW box
“They can go and play the exact same way and they will be back in the finals (next year),” Bartel told RSN.

“It all depends on how you want to measure success and I don’t know how the board and the football department and the coaching staff and everyone there measures success (but) they will make finals if they go and play the exact same way.

“You go back to 2016 and if you are wanting to win finals by kicking 40 points, you are going to hope it is raining a lot.”

Taylor, who was speaking during the AFL Premiership Cup Tour in West Australia, said the Cats likely wouldn’t have the chance to made drastic list changes given their older brigade is generally contracted so the only way changes would be in game style.

“I do think they need to go and have a look at the game plan potentially and tinker with a few things,” the two-time premiership defender said.

“It is one of those cases potentially where you can’t go and change your list too much, they (Geelong) don’t have the capabilities to do that and it won’t necessarily help them immediately next year.

“It is important to just maybe try a few different things with the game plan over the pre-season and the off-season and front up and have another crack.”

Jordan Clark has been starved of opportunity. Picture: Michael Willson/AFL Photos via Getty Images
Younger players such as Jordan Clark and Quinton Narkle were frozen out of the Cats side at times this year and Bartel said needed to blend the young and old more.

Bartel said the duo could have played in the same side with the majority of the older group to give them a chance to shine.

“Why can’t they play with them? I don’t think it is one or the other,” he said.

“You can have the blend. Why isn’t Jordan Clark part of your back-six mix? You don’t need six players who are all slow with ball in hand and 6”3 on your halfback line.”

Been saying this since 2014, we play a brand of footy that won't win us a flag. The tall backs are one of the reasons we get exposed, as once the ball hits the deck they're too fumbley and slow.

The question is, are we brave enough to change anything at all? Or keep doing the same thing?

 

[Jmac2225]

I don’t disagree with that either but Dangerfield, Guthrie, Selwood, Menegola and Duncan have been together for a long time too

Guthrie would of been in the discussion for AA early in the season before injuries hit, likewise after missing the first few round Duncans form was outstanding as well before injury struck again. Neither really found their best form after returning (although to be fair to Duncan he had to be rushed back).

These 2 guys have really become the barometers for our midfield over the past 2 years and I don't think it can be underestimated how much weight the injuries/form of these 2 put on the rest of the midfield groups shoulders.

 

[Gee Class Loco]

I do nkt believe CS could suddenly take the pledge and convert to a new way of playing. We have been tweaking at the edge for years and in the end its the same stuff.

I'll just pick u up on this point for now Turbo.
What makes you say that?
Do you think Scott is oblivious or ignorant at other plans of attack defence control mayhem ?? Do u think he hasn't try to adapt to other styles but without that X type or Y type of player those variations to our game plan didn't work or pan out as expected.
Does he or did he use what we had (in players) best attributes and talents and formulated game plans to best suit??
We might have over achieved as some say and others think we have under achieved.
Which is correct? We will never know as it's just opinions.
Either way we are where we are with the players we have.
Some rate them highly some don't.
Some have over achieved some have not.
Thats sports in general i guess whether its GDFL GFL or AFL.
Not having a go... just have a different view i guess.
Cheers Turbo.
Keep The Faith.
Remember your Schooner is always half full when your at the bar... Not half empty.

 

[iameviljez]

In fairness to Scott, our game plan looks very different to what it did in the first half of the decade.

I think the majorchanging point for us was that Round 2 loss in about 2017 in that high scoring game against Hawthorn - the one where Roughead caught Zuthrie one on one and kicked the winning point. From there, we went defensive to protect our fragile back six from being exposed in one on ones.

 

[TomsBulgingDisc]

Something I’d like to see whether it is from Scott or the senior players or whoever, is a change in attitude mentally.

we have always been a side that sticks to process and each player trying to perform their role as the game plan dictates etc and our passion only ever seems to spill over when there’s a one on one confrontation on the field or a bit of a dust up.

weve seemingly avoided that snarling, kill anything that moves approach that some players and coaches seem to go for. You can’t make up for a team that is completely outclassed with anger and aggression and passion but you can make up some of the gap. We have some naturally aggressive players that might need to actually pull back a little bit, but overwhelmingly we seem like a team that doesn’t go out there with steam coming out it’s ears to be fierce and fearless. I wish that would change

It's probably a bit obvious, but we really lack a Chapman, Rooke type that actually enjoys hurting the opposition. The closest we have is Atkins and he's not anywhere near that level. At this point I'd settle for a Powell-pepper/Mitch Robinson type and all the other baggage that comes with their persona. We seem a bit, nice.

 

[PhatBoy]

In fairness to Scott, our game plan looks very different to what it did in the first half of the decade.

I think the majorchanging point for us was that Round 2 loss in about 2017 in that high scoring game against Hawthorn - the one where Roughead caught Zuthrie one on one and kicked the winning point. From there, we went defensive to protect our fragile back six from being exposed in one on ones.

Good point.
Does anyone else think that the arrival of Cameron maybe could have led to a totally different attitude to attack, ie. at the moment it seems ‘control the ball, move it methodically, and because we have two elite key forwards, through weight of numbers we will create chances for them because they are good.’
with those two guys there I think in hindsight we could have said ‘we’ve got these two elite forwards, let’s move it at breakneck speed and even if the delivery is not great they are both good enough to make use of that supply and kick big scores.’

I probably haven’t worded that well, I know what I’m trying to say but probably haven’t written it well

 

[PhatBoy]

It's probably a bit obvious, but we really lack a Chapman, Rooke type that actually enjoys hurting the opposition. The closest we have is Atkins and he's not anywhere near that level. At this point I'd settle for a Powell-pepper/Mitch Robinson type and all the other baggage that comes with their persona. We seem a bit, nice.

pretty much exactly what I mean

 

[iameviljez]

Good point.
Does anyone else think that the arrival of Cameron maybe could have led to a totally different attitude to attack, ie. at the moment it seems ‘control the ball, move it methodically, and because we have two elite key forwards, through weight of numbers we will create chances for them because they are good.’
with those two guys there I think in hindsight we could have said ‘we’ve got these two elite forwards, let’s move it at breakneck speed and even if the delivery is not great they are both good enough to make use of that supply and kick big scores.’

I probably haven’t worded that well, I know what I’m trying to say but probably haven’t written it well

Almost every modern coach plays to protect their weaknesses I’m afraid. Even Bomber - our major weakness in that golden era was our tall forwards till 2011.

 

[Drunkcat]

I wonder where we’d be if we have put three full-time years into Constable, Fort, Narkle and Clark.

Nothing improves you faster than playing against better players. What does Chook learn from picking up another 40 in the VFL? What does Narkle get out of another 30 and 3 goals? Nothing. They don’t get better, they just rock up, have fun, get frustrated.

If we had put another forty games into all, they wouldn’t necessarily be great - or even very good - but they would be better than they are now. It would have been better to see that than established but limited vets like Bews, Higgins, O’Connor and Stanley having another anonymous game.

It's the same with Kreuger SDK Evans and others they need games so if they have a bad game you can not drop them, only way to get better is more games

 

[Goggin Our Best]

May as well scrub away every single flag won up until the mid 80's given many footballers also had a weekly job. Sound good?

Bernie Quinlan was an absolute superstar - the Dogs had to sell him - simply to get working capital - cash flow in the till - to pay the day to day bills/outgoings

It was a very unfair comp back then

 

[And_ROOS]

Good point.
Does anyone else think that the arrival of Cameron maybe could have led to a totally different attitude to attack, ie. at the moment it seems ‘control the ball, move it methodically, and because we have two elite key forwards, through weight of numbers we will create chances for them because they are good.’
with those two guys there I think in hindsight we could have said ‘we’ve got these two elite forwards, let’s move it at breakneck speed and even if the delivery is not great they are both good enough to make use of that supply and kick big scores.’

I probably haven’t worded that well, I know what I’m trying to say but probably haven’t written it well

Melbourne, Bulldogs and Port ALL have worse forwards on paper than us, but all give them significantly better chances of success by utilizing quick and direct ball movement.

Our best quarter for the last few months, RD23 against Melbourne, quick and direct ball movement.

Chris Scott has a ferrari and is using it for the school runs in the 40k speed zones.

 

[iameviljez]

Melbourne, Bulldogs and Port ALL have worse forwards on paper than us, but all give them significantly better chances of success by utilizing quick and direct ball movement.

Our best quarter for the last few months, RD23 against Melbourne, quick and direct ball movement.

Chris Scott has a ferrari and is using it for the school runs in the 40k speed zones.

We have better tall forwards but our mediums and smalls are awful.

 

[STPer18]

Knights Departs Cats

Geelong would like to thank Matthew Knights for his 10 seasons as a member of our coaching staff

www.geelongcats.com.au

 

[PhatBoy]

Melbourne, Bulldogs and Port ALL have worse forwards on paper than us, but all give them significantly better chances of success by utilizing quick and direct ball movement.

Our best quarter for the last few months, RD23 against Melbourne, quick and direct ball movement.

Chris Scott has a ferrari and is using it for the school runs in the 40k speed zones.

Pretty much what I thought watching the other night. Brown is a good key forward don’t get me wrong, but he’s not in the same ballpark as Cameron or Hawkins as an all round footballer. But he’s got one strength (well two if you count his very elite kicking for goal) and all it took was a handful of very fast forward thrusts to make use of that strength and allow it to have an impact

 

[Turbocat]

I'll just pick u up on this point for now Turbo.


What makes you say that?


Do you think Scott is oblivious or ignorant at other plans of attack defence control mayhem ?? Do u think he hasn't try to adapt to other styles but without that X type or Y type of player those variations to our game plan didn't work or pan out as expected.


Does he or did he use what we had (in players) best attributes and talents and formulated game plans to best suit??


We might have over achieved as some say and others think we have under achieved.


Which is correct? We will never know as it's just opinions.


Either way we are where we are with the players we have.


Some rate them highly some don't.


Some have over achieved some have not.


Thats sports in general i guess whether its GDFL GFL or AFL.


Not having a go... just have a different view i guess.


Cheers Turbo.


Keep The Faith.


Remember your Schooner is always half full when your at the bar... Not half empty.

I think Scott has mainly tried to use the talent he has to its best advantage... but its now been shown that its a false positive. Will he admit they have been wrong? This is someone who fends off any retrospective assessment. He has been a front man for this period, he has been the voice that hammered down questioners. Crunched doubters .Far easier if we are to change to have someone unaligned and without bias.


On the over achieve underachieve thing.His method might be perfect for Soccer. No finals and its just thru the year...but in the afl , its all about finals that the judgements are made. What we are doing is placing all our faith in mud runners... when the finals are like summer hard turf. It really doesn't matter how they run in mud. One may as well say , he can win 100% games thru the day but at night he is no good... when the finals are nearly all at night. If the style we play with can not win then there is no gauge for how good or bad we are. Play the style that can win and let's see where we are.


Add to that is the false economy of these almost finishes when one lives in a draft universe. Finishing 3rd or 4th is almost the worst place on the ladder to finish..and we have done it far to often.. and now its costing us with a lack of high end talent with the balance of silverware.

 

[Down at K Park]

To me it's the consistency and way we continually lose QFs that we set ourselves up to fail. I'll agree last year we probably kicked ourselves out of it but otherwise it definitely was.
As for last years GF though I still maintain if we met Richmond in the prelim the result would've been the same, the big surprise to me was us beating the Lions in that game - I didn't see that coming.

The lions are as big a finals chokers as we are. No wonder we beat them.

 

[Gee Class Loco]

Melbourne, Bulldogs and Port ALL have worse forwards on paper than us, but all give them significantly better chances of success by utilizing quick and direct ball movement.

Our best quarter for the last few months, RD23 against Melbourne, quick and direct ball movement.

Chris Scott has a ferrari and is using it for the school runs in the 40k speed zones.

U do realise that the Dees had their centre bounce midfield set up all wrong for about 15 minutes there.
Pretty easy centre clearances were there for the taking.
After that 15 minutes we didnt have another worth a pinch of sh__t.

As for the Ferrari... Where is this Ferrari u talk of??

 

[My Tilly]

Guthrie would of been in the discussion for AA early in the season before injuries hit, likewise after missing the first few round Duncans form was outstanding as well before injury struck again. Neither really found their best form after returning (although to be fair to Duncan he had to be rushed back).

These 2 guys have really become the barometers for our midfield over the past 2 years and I don't think it can be underestimated how much weight the injuries/form of these 2 put on the rest of the midfield groups shoulders.

Herein lies our big problem. When you are relying on Cam Guthrie to be carrying your midfield, you are in very big trouble.
No offense, terrific footballer but just like Marc Murphy, not really the type of footballer you want to be a leader of men.

Opposing teams would quite like to play against Cam. It is why he is allowed to waltz around at will and gather 30 disposals on a weekly basis.

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

How do you figure it'll be at least 8 years before there's any possibility of competing again? What proportion of the 2007 team was on Geelong's list in 1999? Successful rebuilds happen a lot faster than that if you don't have a shithouse culture like Carlton, Melbourne, Gold Coast. Having a lot of old blokes on the list only slows the rebuild down by a couple of years. Draft picks plus free agents could turn things around very quickly.

1999 - got Mooney for Colbert, Joel Corey, Paul Chapman (with the pick we got for Mansfield), Cameron Ling, Corey Enright

2000 - got Josh Hunt for Carl Steinfort, Max Rooke (rookie), gave up pick 11 for Justin Murphy.

2001 - got Jimmy Bartel, James Kelly, Stevie J, Gary Ablett.

They were added to the likes of Scarlett, Harley, Milburn who were still a couple of years off hitting their prime. We'll never have a draft haul again like we did with 1999 and 2001.

 

[iameviljez]

1999 - got Mooney for Colbert, Joel Corey, Paul Chapman (with the pick we got for Mansfield), Cameron Ling, Corey Enright

2000 - got Josh Hunt for Carl Steinfort, Max Rooke (rookie), gave up pick 11 for Justin Murphy.

2001 - got Jimmy Bartel, James Kelly, Stevie J, Gary Ablett.

They were added to the likes of Scarlett, Harley, Milburn who were still a couple of years off hitting their prime. We'll never have a draft haul again like we did with 1999 and 2001.

To be fair, we started competing in 2004.