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Where we live

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sbagman

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I developed this theory when I was in Italy, I was wondering if people thought it was accurate or not.

I noticed that European cities had much more atmosphere to them than Australian cities. And that Europeans tended to go out alot more than Australians. I attribute this in part to the architecture of the cities in which we live.

In Europe, the housing is dense, so there is a much greater concentration of people than in most Australian cities. As a result, the space in which Europeans live is much smaller than in Australia. This concentration is usually due to historic reasons, ie greater protection from attack if places were clumped together. Anyway, as a result of this lack of space, people tended to want to stay in their houses less and go out more, so that creates this atmosphere. It also means its much easier to get around, as everything is closer together.

In Australia, conversely, we all have whopping big houses with big backyards, so we tend to go straight home after work and relax at home. We usually drive because of the distances involved, so that reduces human contact even further after the working day is over. Entertaining is usually done at home, and going out is not as common, perhaps partly because of the expense of the mortgage. The result? Europeans go out much more than Australians (certainly in my experience anyway) and are much more social.

But it seems things are changing in Australian cities now. I was reading about the densification of the central areas of Melbourne, Sydney and Brisbane. Perhaps this is a response to the sterility of the anonymous suburbs.

So my question to you is this: would you rather have a small apartment in a busy place close to restaurants, cafes, markets, etc etc etc or would you rather live out in the sticks with a big house and big backyard?

From my point of view, I think the densification of our cities is a good thing. I don't really share the Aussie dream of owning my own home; I'd be happy to rent my whole life. If I were to design a city in Australia from scratch, I would have an area adjacent to the CBD with dense housing, where would be located the university, markets, museums, etc etc.... and I would have this area cut off from traffic. Public transport in the form of an underground would be the preferred mode of transport, which would be more viable due to the increased proximity of everything.

Thoughts?

Sbagman.
 
Originally posted by sbagman


In Europe, the housing is dense, so there is a much greater concentration of people than in most Australian cities. As a result, the space in which Europeans live is much smaller than in Australia. This concentration is usually due to historic reasons, ie greater protection from attack if places were clumped together. Anyway, as a result of this lack of space, people tended to want to stay in their houses less and go out more, so that creates this atmosphere. It also means its much easier to get around, as everything is closer together.

So my question to you is this: would you rather have a small apartment in a busy place close to restaurants, cafes, markets, etc etc etc or would you rather live out in the sticks with a big house and big backyard?

Thoughts?

Sbagman.

Another factor to remember with dense housing in Europe and can be found in Sydney's Rocks and I imagine any other near 200 year old areas in aust (few and far between I know) is that pretty much everyone walked everywhere back then. Only the wealthy could afford the horse and cart. So for people to get to and from work they mostly pretty much walked.

For the first time in my life I am living in a free standing house... in a 'suburban' suburb of Sydney... as much as I enjoy waking up to Kookaburras in the morning I do miss being close to the action and not having to travel too far to get anywhere worth going...

On the other side of the coin, when I go to Sydney's eastern suburbs (where I was brought up) I find that I feel claustrophobic with all the people and very narrow streets... I have quickly gotten used to the idea of having lots of space around me... and although the yard ain't that big by my neighbours standards it is bigger than any yard that I have had before.

When if comes to affordability... hmmm, can't see me being able to afford a house in Sydney... actually can't see myself being able to afford a unit in sydney either.... another damn good reason to move to the footy central of the universe if u ask me...

Carol
 
I live out in the 'burbs and would agree that most Australians don't seem to socialise much during the week and probably distance would be the main factor for this. People, having finished uni or work or whatever, tend to just go home and relax during the week, then do the majority of their socialising over the weekend.
Most of my friends don't go out much over the weeknights (Thursday nights the only real exception). A lot of my friends live a fair distance from where I live so it's understable why people don't make too much effort to travel to socialise having just finished a day of work.
I've heard that in Europe, the cities are much more active after working hours during the week and that people often catch up after work to socialise.
I'd like to live in a European city to experience city living over there. I wouldn't mind living in inner-cities areas in Australia in an apartment or town house, close to the city, as long as there was a park nearby (i like the open space).
It's good that Australian cities are starting to consolidate their urban areas, rather than just sprawling over miles and miles of metropolitan area.
European cities are the model which Australia should follow more closely (public tranport oriented, liveable city, compact) rather than the American model which we have largely followed since the 1960s (car reliant, decaying inner city neighbourhoods, sprawled development).
At the moment Australian cities a bit of a hybrid between European and American cities though probably more like American cities with low density and large sprawling metropolitan development.
 
Re: Re: Where we live

Originally posted by ck_nd


Another factor to remember with dense housing in Europe and can be found in Sydney's Rocks and I imagine any other near 200 year old areas in aust (few and far between I know) is that pretty much everyone walked everywhere back then.

I deliberately avoided mentioning Sydney, but I do believe that it may be an exception to the rule. I believe it was built in a much more European/British style, and subsequent cities were much more spacious. This has been used to explain Melbourne's dominance over Sydney on the sporting field, ie the lack of open spaces in early Sydney in which to play sport.
 

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One thing that does give me the absolute sh!ts, SF, is when people say "oh! you've just come back from Italy? I'd love to live there! The lifestyle must be wonderful!" yet these same people won't go out while they live here. You can have that lifestyle in Australia.... its just that it seems precious few people actually get out and do it.
 
Good points you raise, Sbagman.

When I go to France, to visit my family I notice that since the population is more dense, people seem to get along with eachother better. Also on special events such as Christmas, i feel that being in France is much better than being in Australia, because of the atmosphere. Everyone comes out, you have people singing in the streets. Its something that is really hard to describe. You have to see it for yourself.

Living in the suburbs I find it much more peaceful (except with those frigging dogs that keep barking 24/7 next door :p )

I could definetly live in a city that was dense, but with it you lose your privacy. The positives are you are walking distance from everything you need which is tops :)
 
I think the lessening of the desire to do the Aussie thibg and own your own 1/4 block is in direct relation to travel and overseas living experiences. I too have no real desire to own my own house and will be quite happy to rent it out. All I really care about is having the shelter and being comfortable in 'my' area.

In Adelaide I see the densification happening and I think it's a good thing, however we are now getting smaller sattelite cities because of it. What I see happening is people can now stay in the comfort of their own little area without really venturing out, so perhaps this is defeating the purpose of trying to get people off their arses and out into the city to bring life back to it.

I hope this makes sense, I'm a bit tired right now.
 
I guess the distance factor is the main obstacle for people going out during the week. I sometimes go out during the week to the city mainly when I'm still in the city. If I go from home into the city the travel time ranges from half an hour to 45 minutes, I guess most people aren't willing to sacrifice the time to go out and socialise during the week.
I'd like to live somewhere close to the city where you can either walk down to the local or in 10 minutes time you're in the city. In Sydney, good places for this are suburbs like Balmain, the Eastern Suburbs, and Inner West. In Melbourne, places like Richmond, Fitzroy, Carlton, Collingwood.
At the moment for me I guess the biggest obstacle to having a more active social life during the week is living in the 'burbs. I live in a very boring neighbourhood, only around 18 kms north of Sydney CBD but hardly any entertainment facilities and only 2 pubs in the surrounding district . When I get the money I'll be on the move somewhere closer to the city!
 
I'm spewin' about the ever-increasing density of Melbourne's suburbs (my local street has become both a parking lot and a fricking freeway bottleneck).

Can't wait to get back up the bush where there's some sense of community.
 
An interesting topic sbagman. I'm currently living in central Philadelphia which is one of the few American inner city areas which has a European feel (along with Manhattan and .... um .....). Nevertheless it is surrounded on all sides by "no go" zones (and they are real no go zones - friends have been held up at gunpoint) and then beyond them, the 'burbs.

In Sydney I live in Glebe and will be glad to get back there in September. It has a great atmosphere with everything being within walking distance - pubs, cafes, restaurants, bookshops, parks, Chinatown, the CBD, etc. Fortunately we bought a terrace house there 5 years ago as it is rapidly becoming unaffordable - houses along from us have gone for $600-800,000 this year. This sky-rocketing house price environment means that the interesting mix of people and lifestyles which make the area so much fun is in danger of being replaced by a more uniform affluent "gentrified" clientele. Unfortunately it is also these newcomers who are behind the ever-present push to demolish existing buildings for new townhouse developments thus further diminishing the character of the neighbourhood.

One interesting trend in Sydney has been the rapid growth in CBD apartment buildings which means the city centre is livelier at night.

I guess one of the reasons I've come to love Sydney so much since moving there in 1989 is the ability to have a European lifestyle combined with great weather and beaches, the phenomenal diversity of its multi-culturalism, the vibrancy and "coolness" of its gay community, and the positive buzz of the city in general. All these ingredients are a rare combination on planet Earth.
 
Well sbagman I'm like you

I happily live in a tiny rented flat in Sydney's Eastern Suburbs that is only a few hundred metres from Oxford Street in Paddington, The ScG, the CBD, Kings Cross, Bondi Beach etc etc

Iwouldn't swap it for the world. When I was a kid growing up in New Zealnd we used to live in a big free standing house in a very quiet little town about 25 km out of Wellington.

I hated the suburban lifestyle, I hated the lack of amenity, the poor services, the non existant public transport (spent half your life in the damned car !), the lack of friendly neighbours, no culture or entertainment except for TV and Church. Life in the 'burbs back in those days was seriously boring and i vowed that once I got to Australia I would never ever live in the burbs again.

Which is what has happened, both in Adelaide and here in Sydney it was rented apartments as close to the CBD as I could get them. I'm now such an inner city person that for me going to the suburbs and doing the suburban things like mowing lawns and driving down to the Mall for your shopping is like contemplating a trip to the Moon.

The urban consolidation that has gone oj in Australian cities over the last 20 years or so has been fantastic as far as I'm concerned, its what has saved Australian Cities from becoming just pale imitations of North American ones. If consolidation had not happened, I doubt whther I would still be living in Australia actually.

cheers
 
Re: Re: Where we live

Originally posted by ck_nd
[B
For the first time in my life I am living in a free standing house... in a 'suburban' suburb of Sydney... as much as I enjoy waking up to Kookaburras in the morning I do miss being close to the action and not having to travel too far to get anywhere worth going...

Carol [/B]

yea, I suppose you are a fair way from Melbourne, arnt ya! :D :D
 

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Yea, I too have lived over in Italy for a few months as sbagman did, but I sorta have conflicting thoughts.

While it is true that generally Italians (europeans) have a more social lifestyle, with cramped apartments etc, sometimes this isnt what they want.

Having travelled thru Italy, with relations in a lot of the country, it seemed everyone wanted the lifestlyle of a big house in the suburbs, but couldnt afford it. I have cousins who live in Verona (apparently one of the richest areas in Europe), and they live about 25km out of the city in a typical suburban double story house with a backyard and dog! They are fairly well-off, and wouldnt move back to inner city life at all.

I also have wealthy relatives who live in Rome (two doctors married each other!), and they have a huge house about 50km outside of rome, and live in a Toorak-type suburb.

I stayed in Milan for most of my time in Italy, and that city is becoming more westernised everyday. Everyone comes home from work and goes home - the social functions are very few and far between. It is a real hussle-bussle big city with bad traffic problems, crime whatever. It is the opposite to what I thought "Italy" was.

I think it just depends where in Italy you are from, and your economic situation. I have no doubt that in talking to the people there, the majority dont like the small, cramped social lifestyle, but have no choice.

However in Southern Italy, the lifestyle plays a much bigger part and housing is more modest. The weather probably has a bit to do with this, but also economic conditions.

What I found by going there, and what my parents and numerous relatives have found, is that the Italians dont really like the way they live, but wont admit it. Everyone of my relatives said that they wanted to move to Australia or the USA, and were very regretfull that they didnt leave when they had the chance half a century ago. However the 2 wealthy families didnt.

For me, I couldnt live in Europe. However thats just my opinion - I was real keen before I left, however having stayed there and lived their life, the only way I could live there would be if I was a millionaire.

In Australia I sorta live a cross between europe and here anyway. I have a huge extended family (thanks to nonno having over 10 children!), and most of the family live in the same area in Melbourne. Everybody is always over somebody's house, rarely would I go thru a day without seeing about 4 or 5 of my cousins/uncles etc. I like that - many of my aussie mates cant comprehend how we do it.
 
Interesting posts everyone. I guess part of what I am saying is that different things suit different people. Some people want the big backyard, etc etc, and I have no problem with that. What I do have a problem with is when these people want to live like this very close to the city. It just doesn't work like that. If you want a big property... go live on the outskirts of the city or in the country. Last time I looked, there's plenty of land in Australia.... why do you choose inner Brisbane to have your backyard the size of the ACT?
 
Originally posted by sbagman
Interesting posts everyone. I guess part of what I am saying is that different things suit different people. Some people want the big backyard, etc etc, and I have no problem with that. What I do have a problem with is when these people want to live like this very close to the city. It just doesn't work like that. If you want a big property... go live on the outskirts of the city or in the country. Last time I looked, there's plenty of land in Australia.... why do you choose inner Brisbane to have your backyard the size of the ACT?

LOL well u wouldn't want to see inner city living in Darwin

LOL :p
 
A great topic, and one that is close to my heart.

I lived in Damascus for six months, in the old city (two blocks from the Street Called Straight, where St. Paul apparently stayed at the house of Judas). The old city is reputedly THE oldest continuously inhabited city in the world, although it has been destroyed and rebuilt about six times in the last 2000 years. What is there now is distinctly medieval - in architecture and atmostphere. It remains entirely enclosed within city walls, and is a rabbit warren of narrow alleyways leading to nowhere. The old two or three level houses almost touch each other at the top - you can litierally shake your neighbour's hand be leaning out of your window. Below is a fairly constant cacophony of p***ing merchants, selling everything from groceries, diesel and tissues (I can hear it now - 'mahari, mahari, mahari...') on their horse-drawn carts. And five times a day, prayer booms across the city from local mosques (including 5.00 morning prayer). The sense of community and connection with your neighbour was tribal and intense. I was lucky enough to be there during Ramadan - a month during which an even greater sense of kinship is evoked. The breaking of fast at the end of every day is a joyous affair, to be enthusiastically shared with family and friends. Neighbours would turn up out of nowhere, and I have never seen such hospitality.

As much as I love Australia, and particularly Melbourne, I did feel a certain void when I returned. I dunno, it was a certain (at that stage) indefinable unease about the preoccupation with carving out one's little patch of turf in suburbia - where one would sooner tend to their shrubbery than get to know their neighbours. But, I've some to realise that suburbia can never foster the solidarity that I experienced in Syria - where race, religion and - importantly - hardship have moulded community spirit over some 5000 years. Suburbia is multi-cultural, ecumenical, middle-cl***, meticulously planned and developed - all good things per se - and we should never take it for granted. But on a spiritual level, l personally concede that there is something missing. Material infrastructure is one thing, 'vibes' are another.

High density housing? Near the CBD? Great - but it is no guarantee that life will be any less impersonal. You can be alone in a crowd. There may be more things to do, and these things may be more accessible, but I think that the intangible 'sense' of community operates on a deeper level. A unifying iden***y is something that Aussies have grappled with since the mid-to-late 19th century. It is why the ANZAC legend is so important to us, and why issues concerning immigration and indigenous Australians are so hotly contested. We need to work hard to sort these things out - not leave it to the miraculous, one application treats all known diseases, remedy of 'economic rationalism.' Any system which dictates that material well-being MUST equal social well-being is just plain niaive. Anyway, that's another topic ;)
 
Originally posted by september_joffa
WELL I LIVE IN CRANBOURNE...YEAH GO CRANNY !!!

OH MY GOD!
IM SO SCARED....I LIVE TOO CLOSE TO YOU JOFF!!
IM IN NARRE WARREN!! ARG!
 

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I actually experienced this first hand just 2 weeks ago.

I live in the South-East of Melbourne, in a place called Narre Warren. Its your usual suburb, big houses with their big backyards. I go to TAFE, and drive straight home. I spend most of my time there inside, and dont really socialise/interact that much with my neighbours and the other people in my surrounding area.I use my car to go everywhere, because most of the places i go are too far away to walk to.

Then off i trecked to Noosa, with 3 friends of mine. It was so different to my usual lifestyle. The front of our resort was blocked by shops, a bar and a restaurant, and we had to climb stairs to get to the reception (not really climb, but when you're drunk its a climb). We were a 2 minute walk from the beach and we were right in the middle of a long strip of the usual clothes shops and all that jazz.

We stayed for 4 days, and the first day we thought we had better hire a car, as where we all live in Melbourne we all need cars and couldnt live without them............so we did. It turned out that the only times we used the car, were when we went to coles, which was just over a KM away, and we didnt want to walk up and steep hill, and when we trecked off to Underwater World, which was an hours drive!
Anyway, We spent most of our time going around on foot. Down the stairs from our hotel was a bar, a restaurant and most importantly a bottle shop. We were in heaven, there was no use for the car, it was like a whole new style of living. It was not your usual life of just going to school or work and then going straight home and having no social-interaction, everywhere you went, there were people, you couldnt avoid it. And i have to say i loved it.
I might have only been there for 4 days, but when i came back, i felt lost. I loved that style of living so much, and adapted to it so easily, that when i got back, trying to adapt back to the old way felt wrong, and i hated it. The first few nights back i dreamt of living in a place like Noosa. It was like i had been there my whole life, but i hadent even been there a week.

Definitely, if i had the choice, i would live in a place with everything close by. It's so much easier, and youre not doing the same thing all the time, not just going somewhere and going straight home, because you know theres something else to do.
 
Originally posted by Waltzing Woof Biscuit
Thanks Sbagman, what a nice thing to say :)

And Vanders - I too have done time at Narre Warren, but got early parole for good behaviour!

You're one of the lucky ones!
Hopefully i'll be getting out of there soon!
 
Originally posted by Waltzing Woof Biscuit

High density housing? Near the CBD? Great - but it is no guarantee that life will be any less impersonal. You can be alone in a crowd. There may be more things to do, and these things may be more accessible, but I think that the intangible 'sense' of community operates on a deeper level.

Yes, there is no guarantee that life would be any less impersonal. I think this would be only one step towards achieving that sense of community that we speak of. I would love to see the acknowledgement that there is a lack of this "vibe" in our cities, as a first step towards changing the situation. And I would love to be a part of that change. But I think Australians aren't very good at looking at themselves in the mirror.

I'd be very interested to hear about your experiences in Damascus and your views on Australian idenitity, as the latter has been something which has swirled around in my mind since arriving in Italy.

Sbagman.
 

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