Which combination would you take.

[BlueTouchPaper]

kruezer had a six month head start on cotchin, (first season)...

I'm sorry, care to explain this?

and i would wonder when kruezers surgeory was? preseason as a teenager is more important than any training you will do, sets you up as a league footballer, cotchin was so far behind, and has caught him...

With 12 months off...

on top of that, cotchin is not just good for a youngster, he is good period.

Again, you've forgotten what a 20 year old Kreuzer was like. Big men take time, they said - Not Kreuzer, not at that stage anyway. It's not like he played in the '90s.

It was only a year ago!

 

[TownleyTime]

Kreuzer - dob - may 89'.
Cotchin - dob - april 90'.

Very interesting.

 

[rhaz]

Jeez thats hard. For Melbourne? Cotchin + Kennedy... can never have enough gun mids, and would love a big forward at the moment. However, our ruck stocks are poor when Jamar is down and we dearly need the sort of leadership Judd offers. Tough.

 

[BlueTouchPaper]

Jeez thats hard. For Melbourne? Cotchin + Kennedy... can never have enough gun mids, and would love a big forward at the moment. However, our ruck stocks are poor when Jamar is down and we dearly need the sort of leadership Judd offers. Tough.

Honestly?

A team with no second ruck.

And a team completely bereft of leadership.

They would be good for the future though.

 

[slimdusty4]

I'm sorry, care to explain this?

cotchin got to richmond and didnt run til nearly march, (there in lies the fact in his first six months at the club, he was a bystander)

With 12 months off...

really???? read the rest of it, where it states that cotchin has had as much, if not more time off the track. they were just inured at different times.

Again, you've forgotten what a 20 year old Kreuzer was like. Big men take time, they said - Not Kreuzer, not at that stage anyway. It's not like he played in the '90s.

It was only a year ago!

refer to the comment above, (they have both spent time injured on the sidelines) so its not fair to say kruezer is better because he is injured when cotchin was injured for much of his early days....

my point, take injuries out, and cotchin is on top... even in six weeks when kruezer is back and booming, hell still be behind.

having said that, i think that big men are harder to come by, and if you put them in the same team (like the northen knights days), the results would be crippling.

 

[BlueTouchPaper]

cotchin got to richmond and didnt run til nearly march, (there in lies the fact in his first six months at the club, he was a bystander)

So what did Kreuzer's hip injury allow him to do in that same preseason?

Kreuzer and Cotchin debuted a month (4 games) apart.

The rest is irrelevant.

Kreuzer didn't have a proper preseason in 2008, 2010, and hasn't had one this season either.

really???? read the rest of it, where it states that cotchin has had as much, if not more time off the track. they were just inured at different times.

Simply bullshit.

By the time Kreuzer returns to AFL football, they will have had the same 'time off the track' - not more or less - trying to quantify rubbish like this to prove your argument is fruitless

They'll be on approximately the same games played, give or take two or three.

refer to the comment above, (they have both spent time injured on the sidelines) so its not fair to say kruezer is better because he is injured when cotchin was injured for much of his early days....

Twisting words.

Kreuzer has been better than Cotchin in the first two and a half seasons or so.
Cotchin has been better than Kreuzer for a season, beginning approximately this time last year.

 

[Simmonds2Hislop]

Sorry, that is somewhat misleading.

For the past 3 years we have been excusing Cotchin's inconsistency on his lack of preseason etc, whilst not taking into consideration the hip surgery (or surgeries) that Kreuzer has undergone.

Up until the point where Kreuzer went down injured last year, Kreuzer had shown far, far more.

Cotchin is still trying to peg him back, and has closed the gap significantly.

This is standard BigFooty fare - People forgetting about a player less than a year after him playing...

That's funny, because everyone forgot about Cotchin after Kruezer lifted his game while Cotch was injured in 2009.

 

[dean33]

Cotchin has been playing well for most of this season but is still being overrated a bit. Not in the top 50 players yet, hope he gets there because his creativity is great to watch but there are many midfielders with a lot more runs on the board than him and Richmond haven't been playing against much lately at all.

Kreuzer was the best young ruck in the league before his injury, was still short of the top 2-3 in the league last year and a few like Jolly improved after he went down but he was right up there with the best rucks in the league in just his third season. He's an excellent player and a great team player, Cotchin isn't anywhere near him at the moment.

Cotchin easily.... he will be in the top couple of players in the comp within a couple of years. At the moment he's a chance for all australian, not bad after his first full pre-season.

Very Ablett junior like in the way he plays...

 

[BlueTouchPaper]

That's funny, because everyone forgot about Cotchin after Kruezer lifted his game while Cotch was injured in 2009.

Kreuzer was already ahead...

We'll see if his knee lets him reestablish that superiority.

 

[Hipster Doofus]

Please Carlton supporters, right now you cannot deny that.......

Cotchin>>Kruezer

 

[slimdusty4]

So what did Kreuzer's hip injury allow him to do in that same preseason?

Kreuzer and Cotchin debuted a month (4 games) apart.

The rest is irrelevant.

Kreuzer didn't have a proper preseason in 2008, 2010, and hasn't had one this season either.


Simply bullshit.

By the time Kreuzer returns to AFL football, they will have had the same 'time off the track' - not more or less - trying to quantify rubbish like this to prove your argument is fruitless

They'll be on approximately the same games played, give or take two or three.

Twisting words.

Kreuzer has been better than Cotchin in the first two and a half seasons or so.
Cotchin has been better than Kreuzer for a season, beginning approximately this time last year.

well if they are going to have played nearly the same amount of footy, you lose by more, cotchin is at the top of the game in inside 50's and clearances....

kruezer went ahead when cothin was injured....
cotchin went ahead when kreuzer was/is injured....

bottom line cotchin is in front....

cotchin top 50 2011 mike sheehan (okay its opinion, but kreuzer hasnt been in there).

cotchin is in the best five midfielders in the game (on form) atm.

probably behind pendlebury watson judd and swan. and half of those are on reputation, not stats.


i can name 5 ruckman better than kreuzer easily (mumford, sandilands, ottens, clark, cox, jolly, jamar, brogan)...

if you want to play the "hes a forward card", then theres a dozen/ 2 dozen forwards infront of him...

how many promising big men do we see crippled by injury? as of yet he hasnt amounted to anything special... cotchin IS establishing himself as one of the best in the caper. (and backing it up with stats).

no argueing kreuzer is a talent, but you need to let this go, at the time, and maybe even now, for the carlton football club Matt kreuzer was the right pick at number one.... even if you had to trip over your own feet several times to get that number 1 pick

 

[BlueTouchPaper]

well if they are going to have played nearly the same amount of footy, you lose by more, cotchin is at the top of the game in inside 50's and clearances....

Where exactly?

Where is he for goal assists? Lemme guess?
Not in the top two or three dozen despite having one of the best full-forwards to aim for and "at the top of the game in inside 50's"?

kruezer went ahead when cothin was injured....p
cotchin went ahead when kreuzer was/is injured....

bottom line cotchin is in front....

Cotchin was behind Kreuzer until midway through 2010 - That is all. 2 and a half seasons of consistently better output.

Cotchin has to consolidate on eight rounds of exceptional form for another 6 months at least.

cotchin top 50 2011 mike sheehan (okay its opinion, but kreuzer hasnt been in there).

How does this at all validate anything.

That is a prediction, and that is one man's prediction

cotchin is in the best five midfielders in the game (on form) atm.

probably behind pendlebury watson judd and swan. and half of those are on reputation, not stats.

What are you talking about?

Your bias is pathetic and depriving extremely skilled and consistent performers of the recognition they deserve.

Murphy is ahead of Judd, and Mundy is ahead of both of them.

Fyfe, Mitchell, Embley, Kelly, Selwood and a plethora of others are all there or thereabouts.

Cotchin is playing well - but it's 8 games.

Kreuzer has been ahead of him for a good 30+ games

i can name 5 ruckman better than kreuzer easily (mumford, sandilands, ottens, clark, cox, jolly, jamar, brogan)...

if you want to play the "hes a forward card", then theres a dozen/ 2 dozen forwards infront of him...

If you knew anything about him then you would definately not say that he's a forward.

No-one with an ounce of credibility would play that card, or even bother mounting a defense against it.

He's a better ruckman than Clark, even this year - Clark has played as a forward.
Your knowledge of players other than your own is non-existent.
Your ignorance is astounding.

how many promising big men do we see crippled by injury? as of yet he hasnt amounted to anything special....

Pretty poor form.

 

[Happy Mastenator]

Also for all the Kruezer love, comparing the two players at the same age

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/...d1=3108&tid2=4&pid2=2301&type=A&fid1=O&fid2=O

Nic Nat leads him in most categories, and Nic Nat has been playing this year with a dud shoulder.

Kruezer may have some more footy smarts than Nic Nat but Nic Nat will own him athletically. Give me Nic Nat or JK ove Kruezer anyday. Nothing good comes from a ruckman having a full reco at young age.

 

[Phenotype]

How does this at all validate anything.

That is a prediction, and that is one man's prediction



Pretty poor form.

And you are also one man, predicting that Kreuzer will come back and demolish Cotchin. Hypocrisy? I am seeing many more neutral supporters flocking towards the Cotchin end of the field than Kreuzer.

However the comparison between these two are unbelievably stupid. They play paramountly different roles, and they shouldn't be compared against each other. The way one player impacts on the game is different to another's.

 

[Simmonds2Hislop]

Kreuzer was already ahead...

We'll see if his knee lets him reestablish that superiority.

Was he?

The rising star voters didn't think so. It was pretty much universally accepted on this site that Cotchin was better by the end 08 too (except for Carlton supporters).

 

[BlueTouchPaper]

And you are also one man, predicting that Kreuzer will come back and demolish Cotchin. Hypocrisy? I am seeing many more neutral supporters flocking towards the Cotchin end of the field than Kreuzer.

Have you even read the posts? We are arguing about their pasts.

Sheahan was predicting the future.

However the comparison between these two are unbelievably stupid. They play paramountly different roles, and they shouldn't be compared against each other.

Whilst your choice of words is completely baffling, your point is very valid.

 

[slimdusty4]

Where exactly?

Where is he for goal assists? Lemme guess?
Not in the top two or three dozen despite having one of the best full-forwards to aim for and "at the top of the game in inside 50's"?

Cotchin was behind Kreuzer until midway through 2010 - That is all. 2 and a half seasons of consistently better output.

Cotchin has to consolidate on eight rounds of exceptional form for another 6 months at least.

How does this at all validate anything.

That is a prediction, and that is one man's prediction



What are you talking about?

Your bias is pathetic and depriving extremely skilled and consistent performers of the recognition they deserve.

Murphy is ahead of Judd, and Mundy is ahead of both of them.

Fyfe, Mitchell, Embley, Kelly, Selwood and a plethora of others are all there or thereabouts.

Cotchin is playing well - but it's 8 games.

Kreuzer has been ahead of him for a good 30+ games

If you knew anything about him then you would definately not say that he's a forward.

No-one with an ounce of credibility would play that card, or even bother mounting a defense against it.

He's a better ruckman than Clark, even this year - Clark has played as a forward.
Your knowledge of players other than your own is non-existent.
Your ignorance is astounding.

Pretty poor form.

ican only go on current form and stats, and in that department, trent cotchin is dominating!

refer to afl.com.au

4th in the league for i50's

http://www.pro-stats.com.au/psw/web/player_rankings?team_id=0&yr=2011&sp=SE&rt=LA&fc=E3

^(second in the league for clearences).

those are the two stats that won juddy the brownlow....

hes not just "a good young kid with potential"
hes a bona-fied gun...

kreuzer isnt that yet....

if we are gonig on stats you cannot win this arguement... and i mean, seriously, WHAT ELSE CAN YOU GO ON?

 

[BlueTouchPaper]

if we are gonig on stats you cannot win this arguement... and i mean, seriously, WHAT ELSE CAN YOU GO ON?

Wait, what? Try watching the games of both of them.

As I said, the BigFooty modus operandi is forgetting the impact of a player within months.

Not surprised it has happened here.

Assuming all you can go on is stats, tell me where Cotchin is in 1st possessions, assists, tackles, 1%ers, pressured acts, and the rest.
I've already asked a few questions about his statistics that you have conveniently side-stepped
PS : In order to maintain integrity, don't use pro-stats, use respected statisticians.

Tell me which stretch of 10, 15, 20 games Cotchin has had that is superior to any of Kreuzer's whilst you're at it...

 

[juss]

Sorry, that is somewhat misleading.

For the past 3 years we have been excusing Cotchin's inconsistency on his lack of preseason etc, whilst not taking into consideration the hip surgery (or surgeries) that Kreuzer has undergone.

Up until the point where Kreuzer went down injured last year, Kreuzer had shown far, far more.

Cotchin is still trying to peg him back, and has closed the gap significantly.

This is standard BigFooty fare - People forgetting about a player less than a year after him playing...

The view is widely shared by Tigers and most neautral supporters/journos/media that Cotchin is a top 50 player in the comp this year. Some have him as high as top 30 or top 40. For his position, he is statistically one of the best players in the competition. Stats don't mean everything, but they show that he is performing at an elite level in the measurable aspects of being a midfielder.
I love Kruezer and reckon he'l be a star. But has he ever held this standing (top 30/40/50) in the AFL? There are those who have him at around about AA level, or just outside..

Sure Kruez has been injured, but Cotchin isn't "still trying to peg him back", he is ahead of him now. Yes, you can say it's because Kruez isn't on the park, but whatever the reason, it doesn't change the fact that Kruezer will have to catch up to Cotchin once he does return, and he won't be able to do that in one game. He may catch up and overtake, he may not.
For Cotchin to be "still trying to peg him back" would suggest that Kruezer is a top 40 player in the comp, because as of 25th May 2011, that's what Cotchin is.

 

[BlueTouchPaper]

The view is widely shared by Tigers and most neautral supporters/journos/media that Cotchin is a top 50 player in the comp this year.

You say this year, like it means any more than the a block of 5 or so games.
R1 he played 1 good quarter.
R2 was gallant but not as pivotal as Grigg, Martin and probably Jackson in the midfield, Deledio as well.
R3 was overshadowed in very tough conditions for any young player.

He is now in absolutely stunning form, there is no getting around that.

His Round 7 game, was every bit as dominant as Kreuzer's Round 8 game last year.

But my line on this has been that Kreuzer has been better than Cotchin for longer than the inverse.

Cotchin has to sustain form like this for a while and put together a proper season.

This is what makes a player.

Kreuzer's 2009 (that is, 23 games) was superb, especially for a second-year ruck playing the #1 role.

Was Kreuzer ever a Top 30/40/50 player?
Maybe over a stretch of 5 or 6 games like Cotchin, but I'd doubt over a full 22+ games.

 

[Simmonds2Hislop]

Tell me which stretch of 10, 15, 20 games Cotchin has had that is superior to any of Kreuzer's whilst you're at it...

Are you seriously saying Kruezers first 10 games were better than Cotchins last 10.

FWIW the last 10 of Cotchin's are superior to any 10 straight Kruezer has played.

 

[slimdusty4]

R2 was gallant but not as pivotal as Grigg

So when it suits you, you will pay credit to Shaun Grigg, never heard a Carlton supporter admit that they missed him, Only now do we hear such things because it suits your arguement...

Your a joke, I'm done arguing with you. I'm very happy with how well Trent cotchin is going. If I were you I'd be concerned how your "dicky knee-d" forward is going to hold up.

 

[Chism]

Thread is well and truly cooked and going around in circles now.