Who is best contested marker in afl?

[Demonated]

I don't think it is though. When you mark on the lead and your direct opponent doesn't have body contact, it doesn't count as a contested mark.

That's what I was trying to say. If he gets separation from his defender, he takes an uncontested mark without body contact.

 

[SJ]

Interesting to note the two biggest one on one body forwards (Hawkins and Cloke) have both been down the last couple of years (I know Hawkins has been injured in that time). Has the game changed enough to make that strategy ineffective with the whole team defence mantra?

No, what has dropped away is Hawkins marks on the lead and in a pack.

His one-on-one wrestle is as productive as ever.

Problem is it's now his only strategy. He is so one dimensional almost every mark he takes is via this mechanism.

This year he had career high contested marks per game and career low uncontested marks per game.

 

[Demonated]

A lot of Fyfe's contested marks happen at Freo's kick-ins, where he is actually up against key backmen. Fair enough that those key backmen are not trying to body him out of the contest, but he's still competing in the air against them.

After Sandilands, Fyfe is the player that Freo look to kick to if they go long at a kick in. In that sense he is playing a key forward role for us in that situation.

I understand this but unless that key backman is specifically trying to stop Fyfe marking it, as they do for a Cloke, it makes his job just that little bit easier.

 

[ydraw]

That's what I was trying to say. If he gets separation from his defender, he takes an uncontested mark without body contact.

Yep, which is why I said the "total contested marks" measure is unkind to forwards who are good at separation, and instead the % on contested situations won should be the measure.

 

[hepd]

No love for Luke Parker?

Edit - as a non-KPP

 

[Back One Out]

Someone on our board said Clarko was dead again marks in the forward 50 because it slowed the game too much. Preferred crumbing quick goals etc. Whilst this sounded silly at the time it looks like this is how they play and post game interviews with players about awesome hangers etc are almost always qualified with "Clarko doesn't want me to mark them".

Then again maybe we're just sh&t at marking....

Nah, it's more like 'contested marks' are overrated as f**k…

People wet themselves whenever one of the power forwards takes a big grab, but it's just a mark. If they kick straight, it's worth the same number of points as someone who drops the mark, but then grabs the ball off the ground and scrounges a goal.

How many times do Cloke, Hawkins, Lynch or Waite take a big contested mark near goal? Once or twice per game? 3 times on a really good day? Does this make them more valuable than a smaller, more mobile CHF who takes only one contested mark per game, but does more work at ground level?

I think it's been one of the keys to Hawthorn's success that they've had tall forwards who play small and small forwards who play tall. Easier to keep the ball locked in there when all six forwards are capable of chasing people down and tackling them. Easier to score goals when all six are capable of chaining 3 or 4 quick handballs together and snapping goals. No big, useless, weak links...

 

[DangerSloane]

Nah, it's more like 'contested marks' are overrated as f**k…

People wet themselves whenever one of the power forwards takes a big grab, but it's just a mark. If they kick straight, it's worth the same number of points as someone who drops the mark, but then grabs the ball off the ground and scrounges a goal.

How many times do Cloke, Hawkins, Lynch or Waite take a big contested mark near goal? Once or twice per game? 3 times on a really good day? Does this make them more valuable than a smaller, more mobile CHF who takes only one contested mark per game, but does more work at ground level?

I think it's been one of the keys to Hawthorn's success that they've had tall forwards who play small and small forwards who play tall. Easier to keep the ball locked in there when all six forwards are capable of chasing people down and tackling them. Easier to score goals when all six are capable of chaining 3 or 4 quick handballs together and snapping goals. No big, useless, weak links...

This shows pure ignorance.

In today's football keeping possession is vitally important. with numbers flooding back its increasingly hard to take a contested mark, and therefore retain possession on a rebound that has been held up.

You're right in saying that its not as important inside 50 any more with forwards streaming towards goal often taking uncontested marks, but the importance of marking around the ground has increased inversely.

Essentially think of it this way, a contested mark is a very hard ball get.

 

[master bate]

No, what has dropped away is Hawkins marks on the lead and in a pack.

His one-on-one wrestle is as productive as ever.

Problem is it's now his only strategy. He is so one dimensional almost every mark he takes is via this mechanism.

This year he had career high contested marks per game and career low uncontested marks per game.

I think Geelong's midfield and subsequently ball movement dropping away and not having a reliable partner as a key forward also made him go for this option more.

Plus playing at Kardinia with the narrow wings he's probably more likely to sit deep and wrestle. In my opinion anyway whilst not exactly a strength of his game he's better than people think when healthy at leading up and using the ball. It's strange to watch such a large human move but he can!

 

[SJ]

I think Geelong's midfield and subsequently ball movement dropping away and not having a reliable partner as a key forward also made him go for this option more.

Plus playing at Kardinia with the narrow wings he's probably more likely to sit deep and wrestle. In my opinion anyway whilst not exactly a strength of his game he's better than people think when healthy at leading up and using the ball. It's strange to watch such a large human move but he can!

He can but he doesn't anymore. I mean, at all.

 

[DangerSloane]

He can but he doesn't anymore. I mean, at all.

The thing about Hawkins is he has absolutely no help. Cant help but feel for a guy who is often playing hurt with absolutely no assistance.

 

[ydraw]

Nah, it's more like 'contested marks' are overrated as f**k…

People wet themselves whenever one of the power forwards takes a big grab, but it's just a mark. If they kick straight, it's worth the same number of points as someone who drops the mark, but then grabs the ball off the ground and scrounges a goal.

The reason contested marks are important is because every team is under enough pressure at times that they have to bomb it in long and hope for the best. If you have someone who is a good contested mark down there, that results in a shot on goal. If you don't, it's a turnover. Which is why contested marking forwards are so important.

 

[Back One Out]

The reason contested marks are important is because every team is under enough pressure at times that they have to bomb it in long and hope for the best. If you have someone who is a good contested mark down there, that results in a shot on goal. If you don't, it's a turnover. Which is why contested marking forwards are so important.

Yeah, I disagree…

I've watched Hawthorn outscore everyone over the past 4 or 5 years and we haven't really had anyone clunking big pack marks.

Occasionally David Hale or Cyril Rioli would take one. Roughead and Gunston (and Franklin) would out-bustle their opponent and take the occasional contested mark, one on one… But for the most part, those guys beat their opponents around the ground - too quick and nimble - they might contest a pack mark, but then they cleverly work their way back towards goal, lose their opponent and run into the open goal. The haters call them 'cherry pickers', but I think they're just too smart.

You can think whatever you like, it's all opinion, but I reckon the big, slow-moving behemoth forwards like Cloke, Casboult, Waite, etc, are dinosaurs. They can often be a liability. They might take 2 or 3 big marks. They may *nearly* take another 4 or 5 big marks that get the commentators excited. But what else do they do?

I really like defenders who back themselves in and take contested marks. They're not only stopping the scoring opportunity, but they giving their side a quality Def50 rebound. Contested marks in the back half are valuable.

As for contested marks around the ground, I think they are also overrated. As that other guy (Danger_Sloane) said to me in the post above, today's game is all about holding onto possession. Games are won or lost by how quickly and efficiently teams move the ball. The big ruckman who takes pack marks is virtually irrelevant to winning & losing. I don't think it really matters much if Naitanui, Sandilands or McEvoy take 2 or 3 marks...

 

[ydraw]

As for contested marks around the ground, I think they are also overrated. As that other guy said to me in the best above, today's game is all about holding onto possession. Games are won or lost by how quickly and efficiently teams move the ball. The big ruckman who takes pack marks is virtually irrelevant to winning & losing. I don't think it really matters much if Naitanui, Sandilands or McEvoy take 2 or 3 marks...

It matters most when kicking in from a behind. Contested marks on the oppositions forward 50 are very important here. Which is why Fyfe is so important to Freo.

 

[Demonated]

Yep, which is why I said the "total contested marks" measure is unkind to forwards who are good at separation, and instead the % on contested situations won should be the measure.

Oh yeah I get you. I agree.

 

[Marc_Remillard]

Jack ****ing Watts

/end thread

 

[Demonated]

Yeah, I disagree…

I've watched Hawthorn outscore everyone over the past 4 or 5 years and we haven't really had anyone clunking big pack marks.

Occasionally David Hale or Cyril Rioli would take one. Roughead and Gunston (and Franklin) would out-bustle their opponent and take the occasional contested mark, one on one… But for the most part, those guys beat their opponents around the ground - too quick and nimble - they might contest a pack mark, but then they cleverly work their way back towards goal, lose their opponent and run into the open goal. The haters call them 'cherry pickers', but I think they're just too smart.

You can think whatever you like, it's all opinion, but I reckon the big, slow-moving behemoth forwards like Cloke, Casboult, Waite, etc, are dinosaurs. They can often be a liability. They might take 2 or 3 big marks. They may *nearly* take another 4 or 5 big marks that get the commentators excited. But what else do they do?

I really like defenders who back themselves in and take contested marks. They're not only stopping the scoring opportunity, but they giving their side a quality Def50 rebound. Contested marks in the back half are valuable.

As for contested marks around the ground, I think they are also overrated. As that other guy (Danger_Sloane) said to me in the post above, today's game is all about holding onto possession. Games are won or lost by how quickly and efficiently teams move the ball. The big ruckman who takes pack marks is virtually irrelevant to winning & losing. I don't think it really matters much if Naitanui, Sandilands or McEvoy take 2 or 3 marks...

Most teams, even most premierships sides, are not able to move the ball by foot like Hawthorn have been able to. They are without any doubt in my mind the best kicking team of all time. However, contested marking can be a huge weapon even in finals. Hawkins in 2011 with his forward marking helped Geelong win the flag. Cloke's contested marking in 2010 helped the Pies push towards their flag. Even the acquisition of Lake helped Hawks in their area of biggest weakness, having big bodied forwards out mark against an undersized Gibson and others. I'd agree there are more important skills, but it is a very useful skill for when defences flood the backline not leaving any space. It can also free up other forwards if a great contested marker demands a 3rd defender to come and help his teammate, thus creating space and time for others.

 

[threesixpio]

This shows pure ignorance.

In today's football keeping possession is vitally important. with numbers flooding back its increasingly hard to take a contested mark, and therefore retain possession on a rebound that has been held up.

You're right in saying that its not as important inside 50 any more with forwards streaming towards goal often taking uncontested marks, but the importance of marking around the ground has increased inversely.

Essentially think of it this way, a contested mark is a very hard ball get.

Bit harsh

I agree with everything you've said about keeping possession but once it's in the forward 50 there is more scope to keep possession without marking it

 

[Trav 20]

Gun key forwards split packs, don't get out marked and create opportunities for themselves and others.

It lacks footy intelligence to say they're not important.

That's not to say sides can't craft other effective avenues if they don't have one, but every club that doesn't have one would love one.

From the Dees point of view, not only is Hogan an aggressive pack marking beast, but he's also incredibly smart, agile and good when the ball is on the deck.

 

[beerbandit]

The last 10 years has been the worst era of key forwards in the last 40-50 years

In your 10 year block yeah he's up there for sure
But the CHFs of the 80s and 90s had him covered

I never said he was the best.... He is one of the best , I think you should take your cap off and probably accept it, otherwise I think you haven't watched enough Collingwood games to make a fair judgement .

 

[beerbandit]

Gun key forwards split packs, don't get out marked and create opportunities for themselves and others.

It lacks footy intelligence to say they're not important.

That's not to say sides can't craft other effective avenues if they don't have one, but every club that doesn't have one would love one.

From the Dees point of view, not only is Hogan an aggressive pack marking beast, but he's also incredibly smart, agile and good when the ball is on the deck.

Hogan will be a superstar mate, you have a good one there.

 

[Andrew Mc]

Matthew Richardson at almost 3 a game leaves them all in his wake.

Would love to see some of the stats for some of the older guys. For the only year that he had them recorded (I'm not counting 2002!), Lockett took 60 contested marks out of 112 total in 1999, in 19 games. For 82 goals.

 

[Topkent]

I never said he was the best.... He is one of the best , I think you should take your cap off and probably accept it, otherwise I think you haven't watched enough Collingwood games to make a fair judgement .

Im not sure if your 14, but there are 20 blokes who played in the 80s and 90s who were WAY better than Travis Cloke

 

[DangerSloane]

Bit harsh

I agree with everything you've said about keeping possession but once it's in the forward 50 there is more scope to keep possession without marking it

Sorry but to essentially say being able to take a contested mark is useless is as far from the truth as it can get.

Well there is, uncontested marks. If they arent available you better hope you have somoene that can bring down one in a pack or 1 on 1

When I said its not as important in the forward line...was probably a bad choice of words. Should have said not as common. We just don't see as many contested marking contests forward now days. We see more across the ground.

 

[vonn]

Cloke for me. Carlisle has great hands too but he doesn't go near it enough.

 

[threesixpio]

Sorry but to essentially say being able to take a contested mark is useless is as far from the truth as it can get.

Well there is, uncontested marks. If they arent available you better hope you have somoene that can bring down one in a pack or 1 on 1

When I said its not as important in the forward line...was probably a bad choice of words. Should have said not as common. We just don't see as many contested marking contests forward now days. We see more across the ground.

No I think we have crossed wires. I think you likely think similarly to me if you're saying contested marks in the Fwd 50 aren't as big a deal these days