Who should be the next senior coach of Collingwood?

[barrackers]

I'm surprised there isn't more interest among posters in Tapping. Did really well as our VFL coach and continuing the apprenticeship currently as the Bears midfield coach. I think he's a senior coach in the making. It's just a matter of when/where that will be.

I also wonder what some of the coaches who struggled in their 1st senior tenure might be like 2nd time around. Guys like Richo (@ the Dees) and Vossy (@ Port) in particular. I think like Ratts, they'd be very different 2nd time around.

On the OP, I can't see us changing at the top until at least the end of 2021 so there's time. Whatever happens, I hope they go through a thorough process and appoint the best candidate, not just someone they've head hunted.

There seems to be a desire on this board to step away from a Collingwood connection. Perhaps for others that hurts Tapping? For mine it doesn't and being under Fagan will be good for his CV. Success coaching his own team and fits the trend of older coaches.

A couple others:

Craig McRae is another who was rated highly during his time at Collingwood and has since lead the tigs VFL team to a GF loss and flag. '20 is his first year with their AFL program. Not sure how he is tactically, but McRae would be a good fit in a young side looking for a coach. Not sure that's us.

David Rath 15 years at Hawthorn where he was known as a biometrics guru introducing a kicking program that we tried to copy. He's also known to have a good strategic mind. Briefly at the AFL in an innovation and education role and he's now the saints head of footy. Could he be lured into a head coach role as Brisbane did with Fagan?

Saints hire AFL's top football guru David Rath

Rath will become head of football program at the Saints and in doing so leave his role as the AFL's coaching innovation and education manager.

www.theage.com.au

Rath will oversee St Kilda's assistant coaches, development coaches and football analysts. He will also be in charge of game plan, coach education and development, training, player skill acquisition, training analytics, game analysis and IT, leadership and player development.

 

[gouki88]

A GF loss is disappointing, sure, but we lost that one by 5 points ... hardly a reason to throw the baby out with the bath water?

Apart from head hunting Clarkson, Hardwick, or maybe Simpson, hard to put together any cogent arguments about how replacing Buckley will make us better?



Anything is possible in this season from here.

Why is that? Buckley has put forth many more disappointing seasons than ones that exceed expectations, and has completely dropped the ball in one or two. The season isn't over yet, obviously, but if we miss the finals this season after losing in such miserable fashion to not particularly flash teams he deserves to be on the hotseat.

Anything is possible, but the chances of us winning a final is slim as it stands. We need some luck health-wise

 

[No SPIN]

Next year will be 10 years for no flag.People forget bucks inherited a young premiership team, unlike other coaches who start at the bottom, he was gifted a good team. That’s a failure. Nothing less. End of next year will be time for change.

tigers close to 3 flags, pushing for another this year, I’m over this we made the gf and pf talk. it’s accepting of failure. We need to be ruthless.

Read the post that I was responding to offering clear criteria to assess Buckley which fits . The absurd reliance on his early coaching to make the case he can’t coach, while ignoring dramatic team improvement since 2017 is hollow and naive.
It lacks credibility and insight - it’s just a straw clutching exercise with no perspective from his biased critics.

 

[Roverjg]

Surely Buckley has demonstrated since the start of the 2018 season that he falla into this category?



Absolutely!

Which has me scratching my head about why we are having a conversation about replacing a competitive coach with one who likely won’t put us in a position to challenge (Clarkson and Hardwick aside)

Buckley has been coach for 9 years. Not since 2018. Despite all his qualities it does not make his tenure at the Pies successful. If Buckley had been a coach at any other club he would have been gone by now.

Ratten over achieved with a poor list at Carlton. He got them into the 8 in 3 of his 5 years. But when they missed the finals in his 5th year he was gone.

Eade got the Bulldogs to the finals in 4/7 years incl. 3 PFs. But when they missed the finals in 2011 Eade was gone.

Maybe 2018 was the outlier year for Buckley?. We had significantly more injuries/ games lost to senior players in 2018. However we had a game plan that although not sustainable long term and that had been found out by GF, played to our players strengths. In 2018, with basically the same list of players and more depth, we have reverted back to the pre 2018 game plan. It didn't play to our strengths then and it definitely doesn't now

On SM-N975F using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[gouki88]

Read the post that I was responding to offering clear criteria to assess Buckley which fits . The absurd reliance on his early coaching to make the case he can’t coach, while ignoring dramatic team improvement since 2017 is hollow and naive.
It lacks credibility and insight - it’s just a straw clutching exercise with no perspective from his biased critics.

If his supposed 'improvement' had been sustained then your point might be valid. As it stands now his 'improvement' seems more to be a flash in the pan because he had his ass on the line

 

[No SPIN]

If his supposed 'improvement' had been sustained then your point might be valid. As it stands now his 'improvement' seems more to be a flash in the pan because he had his ass on the line

So you do admit it is improvement - finally

 

[76woodenspooners]

Why is that? Buckley has put forth many more disappointing seasons than ones that exceed expectations, and has completely dropped the ball in one or two.

Buckley has been coach for 9 years. Not since 2018. Despite all his qualities it does not make his tenure at the Pies successful. If Buckley had been a coach at any other club he would have been gone by now.

Ratten over achieved with a poor list at Carlton. He got them into the 8 in 3 of his 5 years. But when they missed the finals in his 5th year he was gone.

Eade got the Bulldogs to the finals in 4/7 years incl. 3 PFs. But when they missed the finals in 2011 Eade was gone.

Maybe 2018 was the outlier year for Buckley?. We had significantly more injuries/ games lost to senior players in 2018. However we had a game plan that although not sustainable long term and that had been found out by GF, played to our players strengths. In 2018, with basically the same list of players and more depth, we have reverted back to the pre 2018 game plan. It didn't play to our strengths then and it definitely doesn't now

On SM-N975F using BigFooty.com mobile app

I don’t see any point in grading Buckley down for 2013 to 2017 seasons, they’re in the past. The point is did Buckley learn from them and have demonstrable improvement?

Sure, there are people engaged in competitive pursuits who are, and will always be rubbish.

But there are also some folks who learn, who get better, who are driven to continually get the best out of themselves.

Nathan Buckley the player was clearly in the latter category, it’s not a stretch that he would have the same drive for self-improvement as a coach?

We had a review in the second half of 2017 and the club’s performance before and after have been like night and day.

Geelong did the same thing in the mid 2000’s, they could have gotten rid of Mark Thompson, but they hung into him and the rest is history.

 

[gouki88]

So you do admit it is improvement - finally

It was, but I fear he's reverted back to what he was. Similar pitfalls of being unable to adjust on gameday, picking players that hurt the team, and a general stubbornness. If so, that low level of coaching is the norm

 

[No SPIN]

It was, but I fear he's reverted back to what he was. Similar pitfalls of being unable to adjust on gameday, picking players that hurt the team, and a general stubbornness. If so, that low level of coaching is the norm

yes - the same criticism from the detractors in the past 2 years whenever we have a lean patch.

 

[Carringbush2010]

At the end of the day the coach can only do his best with the cattle he has available.
Bucks has achieved that to me.
Considering we have a lot of good ordinary players.

You're forgetting that Dekka and co went recruiting the type of players that Bucks wanted, he finally got his team and got to within a kick of the flag. The purpose of this team was to play a game style that is / was difficult to defeat - very difficult. In other words Nathan's 'vision'. Watch 2018.

Tactically brilliant, but just as equally difficult to sustain. The oppo are now adept to countering it.

Yes absolutely he's squeezed everything out of this group, but I fear he does not have adaptability to tweak changes to the game when needed, this year and last year glaring examples.

 

[gouki88]

yes - the same criticism from the detractors in the past 2 years whenever we have a lean patch.

That doesn't make it invalid. It's been a trend of Buckley's near decade of being the boss. He loosened with it in 2018 to great results, but we seem to be reverting back to it.

Of course, that could be the result of the shitshow that 2020 has been, especially for us (injuries and off-field distractions). But next year will be very telling. I hope I'm wrong

 

[Carringbush2010]

Next year will be 10 years for no flag.People forget bucks inherited a young premiership team, unlike other coaches who start at the bottom, he was gifted a good team. That’s a failure. Nothing less. End of next year will be time for change.

tigers close to 3 flags, pushing for another this year, I’m over this we made the gf and pf talk. it’s accepting of failure. We need to be ruthless.

This this and this!!! Couldn't care less what the fans accept, personally I don't accept gf losses as success - it's failure. Defeat is failure to learn from.

My biggest fear is the club may be viewing these as successes or even finals appearance. I also fear the clubs priority focus is on being a business more than what the end game should be - winning flags. It feels like money and memberships is the priority not what should be.

 

[AndrewShawble]

I’d rather keep Bucks

My fear is that if he goes, Eddie will put his best mate Sam Newman in.

 

[Carringbush2010]

A GF loss is disappointing, sure, but we lost that one by 5 points ... hardly a reason to throw the baby out with the bath water?

Apart from head hunting Clarkson, Hardwick, or maybe Simpson, hard to put together any cogent arguments about how replacing Buckley will make us better?



Anything is possible in this season from here.

Are you expecting or hoping we will improve enough to flag under Buckley? Injuries aside it doesn't look likely does it. Sure you'll bring up the if we get players back argument but rarely if ever are we at full strength - so in reality it's moot.

The term 'doing the same thing over and over and expecting change is the first sign of insanity' or however it goes. So keeping the same coach for another year or however long without success is likely to give the same result. No success.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Why is that? Buckley has put forth many more disappointing seasons than ones that exceed expectations, and has completely dropped the ball in one or two. The season isn't over yet, obviously, but if we miss the finals this season after losing in such miserable fashion to not particularly flash teams he deserves to be on the hotseat.

Anything is possible, but the chances of us winning a final is slim as it stands. We need some luck health-wise

Winning a final is no better than losing one, only a flag is success - this group has been there done that (played and lost finals). Time to make the improvement and win the flag. That's the whole idea.

Now I'm not delusional and see this group winning it this year or believe the window is still open. I'm realistic enough to know it isn't.

Would a change of coach improve our chances? Maybe maybe not, would keeping Bucks take us to a flag? - can't dismiss that completely but is very unlikely it seems.

 

[No SPIN]

Are you expecting or hoping we will improve enough to flag under Buckley? Injuries aside it doesn't look likely does it. Sure you'll bring up the if we get players back argument but rarely if ever are we at full strength - so in reality it's moot.

The term 'doing the same thing over and over and expecting change is the first sign of insanity' or however it goes. So keeping the same coach for another year or however long without success is likely to give the same result. No success.

keeping the coach when supporters were revolting worked for Mick, Choco, Bomber, Hardwick, Clarko- so keeping the same coach has proven very successful.
In fact I would suggest it provided more immediate success, than replacing the coach, because if you look at the above examples, most won flags around 2 years after reappointment.

 

[domus]

yes - the same criticism from the detractors in the past 2 years whenever we have a lean patch.

Be fair-we have had a lot of lean patches under Buckley whatever the reasons may be.

 

[No SPIN]

Be fair-we have had a lot of lean patches under Buckley whatever the reasons may be.

Read my response in the context of the series of posts - it’s not about lean patches but about using those times to detract from what have been very good Full seasons since 2017.

 

[HeadInTheSand]

The absurd reliance on his early coaching to make the case he can’t coach, while ignoring dramatic team improvement since 2017 is hollow and naive.
It lacks credibility and insight - it’s just a straw clutching exercise with no perspective from his biased critics.

It's amusing that so many with your point of view claim that the succession plan spurred Malthouse to make changes within himself, his coaching and thoughts on the type of players required that enabled the team to win the 2010 Grand Final, but then attempt to wipe the idea that this might have happened to Buckley in 2018.

If there were no variables from 2017 to 2018 - eg no coaching changes - then it might be possible to say it was Buckley (and the coaching panel at the time) that was responsible for the success of 2018, but there was.

There were, of course, other variables - Buckley was told to allow more delegation, he was only given a further two years, he took up yoga, grew a beard - so it can't be said definitively that it would have been entirely him even if there had been no coaching changes.

Regardless of 2018/19, I find it difficult to believe that people can't think much of last year, and certainly this year, represent those horrific 2014-2017 years in the way this team play.

After winning a Premiership in 2010, I fully expected the team to celebrate during 2011, but in fact the team actually played better, apart from the one game that mattered.

After 2018, the team was materially worse. They were gifted a double chance courtesy of Hawthorn beating WC, barely scored in the second half of the final against Geelong - thus continuing a season long trend - and then were smashed by an undermanned GWS outfit in the Preliminary final.

So much for wanting to atone for the previous year's disappointment.

This year is even worse. It's far too tempting for Collingwood supporters to blame the draw, the strangeness of the season, moving to another state, and yet Brisbane, Geelong and West Coast occupy the top four, similar to last season, and Richmond are also in the eight (and the coach sitting on top of the ladder was told in no uncertain terms last year he wouldn't last another if they missed finals this year).

In short, 2018 was quite clearly an outlier. It's irrelevant to discussing about whether Buckley is the coach that can win this club a Premiership. He clearly can't - and every year, the opposition only get better, and the pool of coaches who might be capable of coaching a Premiership grows smaller.

 

[Vicky Park]

I’d rather keep Bucks

My fear is that if he goes, Eddie will put his best mate Sam Newman in.]

 

[No SPIN]

It's amusing that so many with your point of view claim that the succession plan spurred Malthouse to make changes within himself, his coaching and thoughts on the type of players required that enabled the team to win the 2010 Grand Final, but then attempt to wipe the idea that this might have happened to Buckley in 2018.

If there were no variables from 2017 to 2018 - eg no coaching changes - then it might be possible to say it was Buckley (and the coaching panel at the time) that was responsible for the success of 2018, but there was.

There were, of course, other variables - Buckley was told to allow more delegation, he was only given a further two years, he took up yoga, grew a beard - so it can't be said definitively that it would have been entirely him even if there had been no coaching changes.

Regardless of 2018/19, I find it difficult to believe that people can't think much of last year, and certainly this year, represent those horrific 2014-2017 years in the way this team play.

After winning a Premiership in 2010, I fully expected the team to celebrate during 2011, but in fact the team actually played better, apart from the one game that mattered.

After 2018, the team was materially worse. They were gifted a double chance courtesy of Hawthorn beating WC, barely scored in the second half of the final against Geelong - thus continuing a season long trend - and then were smashed by an undermanned GWS outfit in the Preliminary final.

So much for wanting to atone for the previous year's disappointment.

This year is even worse. It's far too tempting for Collingwood supporters to blame the draw, the strangeness of the season, moving to another state, and yet Brisbane, Geelong and West Coast occupy the top four, similar to last season, and Richmond are also in the eight (and the coach sitting on top of the ladder was told in no uncertain terms last year he wouldn't last another if they missed finals this year).

In short, 2018 was quite clearly an outlier. It's irrelevant to discussing about whether Buckley is the coach that can win this club a Premiership. He clearly can't - and every year, the opposition only get better, and the pool of coaches who might be capable of coaching a Premiership grows smaller.

You have unsuccessfully used these selective examples to bag Buckley previously - but as has been said, Top 4 a GF and PF in successive years renders your criticisms hollow. They don’t give away Top4 , GF or PF places as you are naively implying - they are earned.

 

[Carringbush2010]

keeping the coach when supporters were revolting worked for Mick, Choco, Bomber, Hardwick, Clarko- so keeping the same coach has proven very successful.
In fact I would suggest it provided more immediate success, than replacing the coach, because if you look at the above examples, most won flags around 2 years after reappointment.

Do you expect to improve enough under Buckley to win the flag/s?

It took Bomber 7 years to succeed at Geelong, Clarko 3 years, Dimma 7 years, Choco 5 years, Mick 10 years.

Buckley is in his 9th year and does not look likely to flag, I can't dismiss that completely (flag) but you can't just use other coaching examples of why you should keep the coach. You need to look at why they succeeded not purely because they stayed in the job.

For Bucks to flag we'd see major change that leads to enough improvement to succeed, I don't know what that looks like but he won't flag if things stay the course.

So the question is, if he is to stay (which seems likely) does he and the panel have the required change in them to achieve success. I don't know, I hope so, just doesn't look likely.

Lastly I'll request from you to keep it civil and not make things personal like last time please.

 

[No SPIN]

Do you expect to improve enough under Buckley to win the flag/s?

It took Bomber 7 years to succeed at Geelong, Clarko 3 years, Dimma 7 years, Choco 5 years, Mick 10 years.

Buckley is in his 9th year and does not look likely to flag, I can't dismiss that completely (flag) but you can't just use other coaching examples of why you should keep the coach. You need to look at why they succeeded not purely because they stayed in the job.

For Bucks to flag we'd see major change that leads to enough improvement to succeed, I don't know what that looks like but he won't flag if things stay the course.

So the question is, if he is to stay (which seems likely) does he and the panel have the required change in them to achieve success. I don't know, I hope so, just doesn't look likely.

Lastly I'll request from you to keep it civil and not make things personal like last time please.

To be clear you made the point in the earlier post that doing the same thing ie keeping Buckley and expecting a different result is insanity - or words to that effect.
I gave you examples where that was exactly what clubs had done and won flags by backing Coaches that supporters wanted sacked.
So your premise was unsound.

My posts are always civil - saying you were trolling was not uncivil by any definition- but you will also recall, I nonetheless apologized if you had taken any offense.

 

[Carringbush2010]

To be clear you made the point in the earlier post that doing the same thing ie keeping Buckley and expecting a different result is insanity - or words to that effect.
I gave you examples where that was exactly what clubs had done and won flags by backing Coaches that supporters wanted sacked.
So your premise was unsound.

Yeah I get that, but you're not taking into account that those coaches made changes within themselves and their panels to achieve success - mostly in much shorter time spans I might add. Just purely 'backing' the coach in blind faith doesn't achieve anything, there needs to be signs that improvement will come. At the moment or ever since the gf loss I haven't seen improvement to suggest a flag is likely.

You seem to be confident this improvement will happen, do you know something the rest of us don't? Do you have some inside info? Or are you just blindly hoping?

 

[HeadInTheSand]

keeping the coach when supporters were revolting worked for Mick, Choco, Bomber, Hardwick, Clarko- so keeping the same coach has proven very successful.

Your premise is nonsense.

Williams actually won a Premiership (in his fifth year). They were top of the ladder for two seasons prior to the flag, and in the flag winning year.

Hardwick improved the team each year apart from 2016, and then they recruited Caracella and Leppitsch to modify the way they played. They have won two out of the last three Premierships, and made a Prelim in 2018, and are still in the hunt.

Thompson had too many additional duties, which is why the club hired Balme as Football manager in 2007 - to take some of the workload off him.

Clarkson won a Premiership in his first year coaching in SA, and won one with Hawthorn in his fourth year. They made finals in 2010/11, including a Prelim in 2011, then played in the next four Grand Finals and won three.

All of those clubs improved, and then stayed at that level.

That's the complete opposite of this team. And yes, whilst finals appearances aren't gifted, it doesn't matter what the Pies did last year - if Hawthorn hadn't beaten WC, there's no double chance and every likelihood of not even making the Prelim.

Good teams don't rely on luck (although they may accept it).