Who's closer to a flag, Fremantle or West Coast?

[captain cotch 9]

ATM the WCE are closer to a flag. They could pop up in the next 1-2 years and steal one.
Long term though (3-8 years) Freo are better set up.
Just my opinion

 

[tonygeeks]

Can't see west corp winning one before September so Freo obviously


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[Forward Press]

Can't see west corp winning one before September so Freo obviously

It would be quite an achievement by any team to win a game a month before it's played.

 

[Sully90]

In an effort to get this thread back on track:

Pretty happy where Freo are at at the moment, but if Eagles were to fall off a cliff this year, I think that they'll have an easier time getting back up thanks to their KFPs and ruck strength. Midfield depth will be an issue going forward for them though.

Fremantle: 2020-2021 (2019 if all things go to plan)
Eagles: 2018, failing that probably 2022 onwards

 

[The Gtrain]

You mean the Hamling that carved up Kennedy in the home final that WC couldn't lose.

Mckenzie and Schofield are way past their prime. Barrass is still trying to prove that he is an AFL defender.
You mentioned Pearce coming back from a broken leg and I agree he will struggle but Natanui is in the same boat. A 100 odd kilo leaping ruckman with a dodgy knee coming back after a year out of the game is not the best option to hang your hat on for a successful season.

You mean the same Barrass that took down Adelaide in the same year? or the same Barrass that is 2.5yrs younger only played 13 games less and is statistically better than Hamling? This one or another one trying prove he is an AFL defender

 

[DaveLister]

You mean the same Barrass that took down Adelaide in the same year? or the same Barrass that is 2.5yrs younger only played 13 games less and is statistically better than Hamling? This one or another one trying prove he is an AFL defender

I don't blame you for not watching much of fremantle's season 2017 but did you miss the 2016 finals?
Hamling was the best key defender in that finals series and he has improved in a number areas since then.

 

[Dupogi]

I don't blame you for not watching much of fremantle's season 2017 but did you miss the 2016 finals?
Hamling was the best key defender in that finals series and he has improved in a number areas since then.

Maybe you should start a poll to see who people would take - Barrass or Hamling! Id take Barrass everyday!

 

[Kram]

Badass Barrass goes alright but Hamling is better.

 

[The Gtrain]

I don't blame you for not watching much of fremantle's season 2017 but did you miss the 2016 finals?
Hamling was the best key defender in that finals series and he has improved in a number areas since then.

I watched quite a bit actually, my family has memberships so go to a lot of their games (have done for many years), they are a frustrating side to watch, I am certainly not one-eyed but I definitely play on it at gatherings as I am outnumbered 5-1. meanwhile back at the ranch, I'm not denying Hamling is a good defender and will no doubt get better, I was merely pointing out to the poster who questioned TB as an AFL defender, that he needs to look rather than suggest randomly.

 

[DaveLister]

I watched quite a bit actually, my family has memberships so go to a lot of their games (have done for many years), they are a frustrating side to watch, I am certainly not one-eyed but I definitely play on it at gatherings as I am outnumbered 5-1. meanwhile back at the ranch, I'm not denying Hamling is a good defender and will no doubt get better, I was merely pointing out to the poster who questioned TB as an AFL defender, that he needs to look rather than suggest randomly.

You mean the same Barrass is statistically better than Hamling?

Yeah sure.
TB leads Hamling is a bunch of stats but that really doesn't mean much at all, different roles and defensive structures make it like comparing apples and oranges.
TB's marking is great, I rate him as an intercept defender but his 1v1 defence against key forwards needs a lot of work before he can be considered the better defender.

 

[Dupogi]

Its worked for Masten since day 1, but his time has come surely!?!

I like Sheed, not as much as Duggan though, I really like that kid!!!

If only The Hacksaw had a little more toe!

 

[Dupogi]

two others touch and go but Schofield ????? now come on

Schofield should retire, i cant stand that guy!

 

[The Gtrain]

Yeah sure.
TB leads Hamling is a bunch of stats but that really doesn't mean much at all, different roles and defensive structures make it like comparing apples and oranges.
TB's marking is great, I rate him as an intercept defender but his 1v1 defence against key forwards needs a lot of work before he can be considered the better defender.

It certainly does, has been shown up many times. Yeh stats are terrible I know and have said the same, just arguing the baseless non-afl defender. We really don't do a lot of 1v1 Emac tends to a bit more and gets shown up as well, we rely heavily on the intercept marking, we both had three occasions in the 2017 H&A where a fwd kicked a bag of 5 or more against our teams our bags came from key fwds, yours from small quicker fwds (except JJK who pants Hamling). ( which reinforces the 1v1 shutdown role of Hamling and the team defence.)

 

[DaveLister]

It certainly does, has been shown up many times. Yeh stats are terrible I know and have said the same, just arguing the baseless non-afl defender. We really don't do a lot of 1v1 Emac tends to a bit more and gets shown up as well, we rely heavily on the intercept marking, we both had three occasions in the 2017 H&A where a fwd kicked a bag of 5 or more against our teams our bags came from key fwds, yours from small quicker fwds (except JJK who pants Hamling). ( which reinforces the 1v1 shutdown role of Hamling and the team defence.)

in Hamling's defence, everyone got pantsed by JJK after he came back from injury.

 

[estibador]

Schofield should retire, i cant stand that guy!

Ease up, if we forced every unlikeable eagle to retire they wouldn't be able to field a team.

 

[The Gtrain]

in Hamling's defence, everyone got pantsed by JJK after he came back from injury.

Except in finals

 

[Forward Press]

Ease up, if we forced every unlikeable eagle to retire they wouldn't be able to field a team.

Quality bants.

I do admit we have a fair few punchable faces in our team (even with Sam Mitchell now retired), plus Chris Masten to just generally offend everyone's sensibilities.

 

[Yippy Yi Yeo]

All but Venables played in the last 3 matches of the year for EP, including the incredibly disappointing loss to the hapless Perth and a belting from Subi.

The point is that, other than Partington, you had no young developing players dominating inside at WAFL level. He went on to play AFL, although as usual when they step up, as a half forward. When Venables played his 8 games in the WAFL, he also played as a half forward. Remember you need to replace an average of 25 and 27 disposals from Priddis and Mitchell next year - a high proportion of which are contested.

I think you can be confident that Partington makes it next year, the others will all have to make great strides to make an impact.

Rioli averaged 2 goals and 13 disposals after coming back from an 8 week hamstring and was well overweight, Waterman averaged 2 goals and 14 disposals after spending majority of the season in a moonboot, Watson averaged 27 touches, 6 marks and 6 tackles before he suffered a bad ankle break, and by all accounts has had a good pre season. A bit hard to have anyone "dominating" the WAFL when all the best young prospects spent over half the year injured, and had to build fitness once they came back, but yet still managed to produce more than solid stats for first year players. As far as I know none of them have had an interupted pre season so there's no reason they can't debut early in the season, if not round 1.

Sheed and Redden will have no trouble adding the extra 4 disposals per game they need to reach Mitchell's and Priddis's averages for last year with extra time in the middle. Mitch and Priddis only averaged 22 contested possessions between them last year, Sheed and Redden averaged 18 with far less time in the middle, so I think you are over estimating the impact that Priddis and Mitchell had last year, and the size of the hole that we will have to fill. Yeo/Duggan/Partington/Ah Chee will no doubt increase their averages as well with more time there too.

Naitanui and Lycett in 2016 averaged 17 contested possessions between them, whereas Vardy and Petrie only averaged 12 between them in 2017, so we will also be better off in that respect as well.

As a Fremantle supporter you obviously have a vested interest in us doing badly, so you're clearly overstating our losses and understating what we have to gain from last season. As far as I can tell, we will have a significantly better ruck division this year, a much more rounded and dynamic forwardline, a quality backline with more experience than they had last year. The only question mark remains over the loss of experience in the middle, but with that comes a huge increase in speed and more time in the middle to players who have been crying out for it, who will also benefit from the improved ruck division.

 

[SHill Shall]

Rioli averaged 2 goals and 13 disposals after coming back from an 8 week hamstring and was well overweight, Waterman averaged 2 goals and 14 disposals after spending majority of the season in a moonboot, Watson averaged 27 touches, 6 marks and 6 tackles before he suffered a bad ankle break, and by all accounts has had a good pre season. A bit hard to have anyone "dominating" the WAFL when all the best young prospects spent over half the year injured, and had to build fitness once they came back, but yet still managed to produce more than solid stats for first year players. As far as I know none of them have had an interupted pre season so there's no reason they can't debut early in the season, if not round 1.

Sheed and Redden will have no trouble adding the extra 4 disposals per game they need to reach Mitchell's and Priddis's averages for last year with extra time in the middle. Mitch and Priddis only averaged 22 contested possessions between them last year, Sheed and Redden averaged 18 with far less time in the middle, so I think you are over estimating the impact that Priddis and Mitchell had last year, and the size of the hole that we will have to fill. Yeo/Duggan/Partington/Ah Chee will no doubt increase their averages as well with more time there too.

Naitanui and Lycett in 2016 averaged 17 contested possessions between them, whereas Vardy and Petrie only averaged 12 between them in 2017, so we will also be better off in that respect as well.

As a Fremantle supporter you obviously have a vested interest in us doing badly, so you're clearly overstating our losses and understating what we have to gain from last season. As far as I can tell, we will have a significantly better ruck division this year, a much more rounded and dynamic forwardline, a quality backline with more experience than they had last year. The only question mark remains over the loss of experience in the middle, but with that comes a huge increase in speed and more time in the middle to players who have been crying out for it, who will also benefit from the improved ruck division.

Averages can be deceiving some times. Rioli got 4 goals when EP destroyed Swans by 9 goals but none when EP capitulated against bottom of the ladder Perth. When the chips were down Rioli was worth a goal on average. Waterman was slightly more consistent, but nothing to write home about.

If you’ve convinced yourself that Sheed and Redden will be as good as Mitchell and Priddis then there’s nothing really to debate here. In addition you’re relying on Partington and Ah Chee (or whoever comes into the side to replace the Brownlow medallist’s) to deliver the same output as Sheed and Redden - there’s a question mark there.

NN and Lycett are quality, but they are unlikely to produce the same output post injury. As to your more dynamic and rounded forward line, I assume you’re placing great store on the likes of Rioli and Liam Ryan adding spark. That will only happen if you’re dominating possession - I also have reservations about Ryan given how he performed in finals against Peel (simply got marked out of both games by Nyhuis - who won’t be B22 for Freo unless injury intervenes).

So I’m happy to stand by my prediction that WC is likely to go backwards with a great year equating to 7th or 8th. There’s no chance of a top 4 finish. Please bookmark.

 

[Carson Dial]

Maybe you should start a poll to see who people would take - Barrass or Hamling! Id take Barrass everyday!

Thats why you are trailing in the polls.

 

[Yippy Yi Yeo]

Averages can be deceiving some times. Rioli got 4 goals when EP destroyed Swans by 9 goals but none when EP capitulated against bottom of the ladder Perth. When the chips were down Rioli was worth a goal on average. Waterman was slightly more consistent, but nothing to write home about.

If you’ve convinced yourself that Sheed and Redden will be as good as Mitchell and Priddis then there’s nothing really to debate here. In addition you’re relying on Partington and Ah Chee (or whoever comes into the side to replace the Brownlow medallist’s) to deliver the same output as Sheed and Redden - there’s a question mark there.

NN and Lycett are quality, but they are unlikely to produce the same output post injury. As to your more dynamic and rounded forward line, I assume you’re placing great store on the likes of Rioli and Liam Ryan adding spark. That will only happen if you’re dominating possession - I also have reservations about Ryan given how he performed in finals against Peel (simply got marked out of both games by Nyhuis - who won’t be B22 for Freo unless injury intervenes).

So I’m happy to stand by my prediction that WC is likely to go backwards with a great year equating to 7th or 8th. There’s no chance of a top 4 finish. Please bookmark.

Of course averages can be deceiving, but the same applies to pretty much all players, performing well in a win and poorly in a loss. Regarding Rioli, his hammy injuries prevented him trimming much weight, whereas this year he actually resembles a footballer as he's had an injury free run to get fit this pre season. Amazing what that can do for a player.


If you think Sheed and Redden won't both be better than Priddis's 2017, then you simply have rocks in your head. In majority of the games Priddis played, he probably resulted in a net loss the team due to his weaknesses, he lost even more pace and with the addition of another slow mid in Mitchell, the other mids had to shoulder far more defensive responsibility than they will this year. Mitchell added something that we obviously won't have this year, but even he wasn't as dominant as he had been in previous years. It's not as simple as saying that "oh Priddis and Mitchell are 2 brownlow medallists being replaced by non brownlow medallists, so west coast will be worse off". There is a whole myriad of different factors that will go into it, yet you seem to think black and white.


Naitanui may not have the same output, but he is still the best tap ruckman in the game and will allow the mids to play a more attacking gameplan, especially with the increased pace in the middle. There is no reason Lycett can't come back as good, if not better as he wasn't kept out by an ACL and doesn't rely on his movement or jumping as much as Naitanui. He is also 26 later this year which is coming into his peak as a ruck.


You don't need to dominate possession to have an efficient and skillful forwardline, that's ridiculous. We had one of the most efficient forwardlines last year as it was despite missing JK for 5 weeks, Cripps and Lecras both being out of form and Hill not showing much at all before being permanently dropped. We had no real dedicated crumbers, this year we will have a fit and firing Rioli, Venables who looks like he could be one of the best kicks in the team and knows how to find the big sticks, Ryan who regardless of going goalless in the grand final (the only game he went goalless in last year) managed to kick almost 70 goals throughout the season. From what I've heard he was often double and triple teamed in the games against peel as well, so I think you're giving Nyhuis a bit too much credit. Small forwards don't often do well in grand finals anyway, and I'd imagine that'd be the case even moreso when you're the most dangerous forward in a WAFL team playing against a side that was closer to an AFL team than a WAFL one so that the club can try and fill the bare trophy cabinet with something. He will be our 3rd-5th best forward this year and will get far less attention than he did in the games against the Peelmantle Dockers.


Having those guys playing the crumbing and more attacking roles in the forwardline also allows Cripps to play his more natural defensive game, which he excels at. He was great for us in '15 and '16 and if he can get back to that we will have one of the best few forwardlines in the competition again.


Again with the black and white logic, finishing position isn't the only thing to determine whether we go backwards or forwards. The performances of other teams can affect that, in 2016 we finished 6th with 16 wins and 130%, we would have finished 1st this year with the same output. However instead we finished 8th with 12 wins, 10 losses and 106%. Regardless of finishing position, my expectation is that in 2018 we will win a couple more of the numerous close games that we lost this year, and should finish with around 14 wins and 120% give or take with the increased firepower in the forwardline. Top 4 would be difficult but by no means impossible, and is far more likely than finishing bottom 4 like some "experts" claim. Fremantle are supposedly 3 years into a rebuild this year, and based off of what everyone is saying this will be the first year of our "rebuild", and I can assure you we will still finish higher than Fremantle, you can bookmark that.

 

[SHill Shall]

If you think Sheed and Redden won't both be better than Priddis's 2017, then you simply have rocks in your head. In majority of the games Priddis played, he probably resulted in a net loss the team due to his weaknesses, he lost even more pace and with the addition of another slow mid in Mitchell, the other mids had to shoulder far more defensive responsibility than they will this year. Mitchell added something that we obviously won't have this year, but even he wasn't as dominant as he had been in previous years. It's not as simple as saying that "oh Priddis and Mitchell are 2 brownlow medallists being replaced by non brownlow medallists, so west coast will be worse off". There is a whole myriad of different factors that will go into it, yet you seem to think black and white.

Clearly your coaching staff also have rocks in their head as well, given they consistently preferred Priddis out of the middle to Sheed and Redden. As for my black and white thinking; you didn’t even adddress the point that you have a number of young and untried debutants coming into the B22 to replace Priddis and Mitchell. They rarely dominate as they find their feet.

 

[SHill Shall]

You don’t need to dominate possession to have an efficient and skillful forwardline, that's ridiculous. We had one of the most efficient forwardlines last year as it was despite missing JK for 5 weeks, Cripps and Lecras both being out of form and Hill not showing much at all before being permanently dropped. We had no real dedicated crumbers, this year we will have a fit and firing Rioli, Venables who looks like he could be one of the best kicks in the team and knows how to find the big sticks, Ryan who regardless of going goalless in the grand final (the only game he went goalless in last year) managed to kick almost 70 goals throughout the season. From what I've heard he was often double and triple teamed in the games against peel as well, so I think you're giving Nyhuis a bit too much credit. Small forwards don't often do well in grand finals anyway, and I'd imagine that'd be the case even moreso when you're the most dangerous forward in a WAFL team playing against a side that was closer to an AFL team than a WAFL one so that the club can try and fill the bare trophy cabinet with something. He will be our 3rd-5th best forward this year and will get far less attention than he did in the games against the Peelmantle Dockers.

Having those guys playing the crumbing and more attacking roles in the forwardline also allows Cripps to play his more natural defensive game, which he excels at. He was great for us in '15 and '16 and if he can get back to that we will have one of the best few forwardlines in the competition again.

My comment on Ryan and Rioli was based around them being essentially small forwards. I know plenty of people debate this with Ryan, but I assume WC fans are pretty happy with the marking and goal scoring power of their key talls and see most scope for improvement coming from the smalls. As you allude to, smalls don’t tend to dominate unless their team is also on top. That was the basis for the comment, given my concern for WC’s ball winning ability in 2018.

By the way, Peel did not double or triple team Ryan in both finals. Nyhuis just sat on him and took him out. He will be up against that each and every week at AFL level. That is why many pundits thought pick 50+ was about right for Ryan in the draft.

You also make an intriguing comment about getting back to “one of the best forward lines in the competition again”. What were the factors that caused the forward line to fall away? The personnel were largely the same, were they not? You do have one of the best forward lines, period; just interested in your comment.

 

[SHill Shall]

Again with the black and white logic, finishing position isn't the only thing to determine whether we go backwards or forwards. The performances of other teams can affect that, in 2016 we finished 6th with 16 wins and 130%, we would have finished 1st this year with the same output. However instead we finished 8th with 12 wins, 10 losses and 106%. Regardless of finishing position, my expectation is that in 2018 we will win a couple more of the numerous close games that we lost this year, and should finish with around 14 wins and 120% give or take with the increased firepower in the forwardline. Top 4 would be difficult but by no means impossible, and is far more likely than finishing bottom 4 like some "experts" claim. Fremantle are supposedly 3 years into a rebuild this year, and based off of what everyone is saying this will be the first year of our "rebuild", and I can assure you we will still finish higher than Fremantle, you can bookmark that.

You’ve really outdone yourself here. I’m using black and white logic when I state that I don’t think WC will on average make the eight, but you are not as you make the bolded statement above. They are both simple predictions of what might happen, and please be assured I was implicitly factoring in my own views of whether other teams will improve or fall away (just as you presumably were in determining WC’s win loss for the year, with a percentage prediction thrown in to boot).

You then go on to make the underlined statement above - apparently ignoring the “finishing position is affected by the performances of other teams” plank on which you’d built your first argument. Stunning stuff.

For the record I do think WC will finish above Freo this year, hopefully by only a couple of places though.

 

[ArdentEagle]

Thats why you are trailing in the polls.

Are you sure?
Better have a closer look.