Society/Culture Why I blame Islam for the fact it's raining today.... part 2

[Chief]

Reminder: This isn't the Israel/Hamas thread. Go to the Israel/Hamas thread if you want to talk about that. Thanks.

Mid East - Israel declare war after Hamas attack II

Part I: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/israel-declare-war-after-hamas-attack.1371828/page-47#post-81443295 Thread Rules: Alright. I recognise that this is a fraught topic for any number of you posting here. Some of you will have family in Israel or Palestine. Some of you will have...

www.bigfooty.com

Thread rules update:

From this point if you're going to make a connection between Islam and the crime rate, you need to demonstrate causation in your post. If you do not, I'm going to infract you for the inherent racism in the position you're taking.

 

[Malifice]

I only checked from 2010 onwards, from your example vast majority of these attacks are committed by Islamists.

That wasn't his argument. His argument was that 'illegals' pose a problem. He expressly said that 'illegals' are overrepresented in attacks, rapes, murders etc and that they pose a far greater risk than people legally in the UK.

I want him to prove the risk these 'illegals' pose.

 

[Malifice]

Oh yeah? how many of Jan and Joe public doing that? SFA!

All of them.

Where is the uproar about people that fly in? All the press and the angst is 'stop the boats'.

 

[skipper kelly]

Explain phantom limb pain. That will blow your mind.

 

[evolved2]

Wait so you think getting offended by clothes is pro woman?

Forcing women to wear a hijab or burqa is not an example of womens liberation. I thought that would be obvious, but I guess not.

Are you a Muslim?

I'm not really interested in your whataboutism until we've gotten to the bottom of why you think people should be more offended by clothing than misgendering someone.

Clearly we have different ideas of what is offensive and what isn't. Id rather the women in my life be misgendered than forced to wear a burqa, but I see that you disagree.

Now they I've answered your question, would you care to answer mine. Why is misgendering more offensive than "clothing"?

 

[JackOutback]

What you think this is mainstream? Don't get sucked in by media reports.

Of course it's a problem but it's not a societal threat.

You're alluding that the sentiment of Jan and Joe public is jerry cans and pitch forks.

They're minority fringe groups that DON'T HAVE THE NUMBERS to be a societal threat, as much as you seemingly want it to be so you can grind your evident dystopian axe.

As long as you continue to think it’s not a problem until you see pitchforks (or hoods), you are contributing to the problem by attempting to diminish it. The pitchforks only seem reasonable to some because they know they have plenty that feel the same sentiment behind, just a little more circumspect about how they show it. It’s the final step.

 

[Malifice]

Forcing women to wear a hijab or burqa is not an example of womens liberation.

And neither are laws proposed by conservatives forcing women not to, on pain of criminal prosecution.

Women should be able to choose for themselves what to wear.

Now they I've answered your question, would you care to answer mine. Why is misgendering more offensive than "clothing"?

Misgendering and transphobia increases the feelings of hostility felt by transgender people:

Being misgendered may increase social anxiety, trigger self-conscious and self-critical awareness of an individual’s gender expression, and lead to rumination and hypervigilance about being misgendered in future social situations. Frequent repeated misgendering may therefore increase an individual’s overall anxiety levels. Indeed, previous research has documented how experiences of non-affirmation and invalidation can lead to anxiety, distress, bodily vigilance, emotional dysregulation, and rumination for sexual and gender minority individuals (Cardona et al., Citation2022; Hatzenbuehler, Citation2009; Puckett et al., Citation2023, Citation2022).

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/26895269.2023.2278064#d1e2468

Which contributes to this:

The suicide attempt rate among transgender persons ranges from 32% to 50% across the countries. Gender-based victimization, discrimination, bullying, violence, being rejected by the family, friends, and community; harassment by intimate partner, family members, police and public; discrimination and ill treatment at health-care system are the major risk factors that influence the suicidal behavior among transgender persons.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5178031/

 

[Gralin]

Forcing women to wear a hijab or burqa is not an example of womens liberation. I thought that would be obvious, but I guess not.

Assuming that every woman wearing a hijab or burqa doesn't want to wear it also isn't an example of women's liberation.
Being offended by what women wear isn't an example of women's liberation.

Are you a Muslim?

Are you worried that I might be?

Clearly we have different ideas of what is offensive and what isn't. Id rather the women in my life be misgendered than forced to wear a burqa, but I see that you disagree.

Are you suggesting its an either or scenario? Wear a burqa or you'll get misgendered?
Because that's the kind of argument you're making here.

Now they I've answered your question, would you care to answer mine. Why is misgendering more offensive than "clothing"?

You still haven't said what the result of you targeting the hijab or burqa is, who is most negatively impacted by you doing this, who cops the hatred in person for your and others disgust of the clothing

You could be asking better questions too.

I know you want to go vague and big because you're trying to get the answer you want

A better question would have been do I think following Islam makes you anti woman and anti LGBT and the answer to that would be no, the same way as being Christian or Jewish doesn't.

Being a religious extremist is not all there is to religion, there are many gay Muslims just as there are gay Christians

I don't personally understand why they would want to be part of a religion that frequently demonizes and doesn't want them, but at the end of the day its not the religion doing that, its other followers of the religion and bigots exist among atheist communities as well

you don't have to be religious to be a misogynist or homophobe, in fact there are plenty of people who aren't, enough I would think to prove that the issue is not specifically one of religion

 

[evolved2]

Assuming that every woman wearing a hijab or burqa doesn't want to wear it also isn't an example of women's liberation.
Being offended by what women wear isn't an example of women's liberation.

Oh boy. Wow.

Are you worried that I might be?

I'm not the least bit worried. Why won't you just answer the question - it's a yes or no.

Your two favourite pet topics - Islam and transgender people are a fascinating mix. I don't know how you can defend both at the same time, but cudos for trying.

Are you suggesting its an either or scenario? Wear a burqa or you'll get misgendered?
Because that's the kind of argument you're making here.

No.

You still haven't said what the result of you targeting the hijab or burqa is, who is most negatively impacted by you doing this, who cops the hatred in person for your and others disgust of the clothin

Who said I had disgust for the clothing? I have disgust for the religion that imposes conservative clothing standards on women whether they like it or not.

You could be asking better questions too.

I know you want to go vague and big because you're trying to get the answer you want

Wrong. You make a lot of false assumptions about people, which is why it's difficult to have any sort of discussion with you.

A better question would have been do I think following Islam makes you anti woman and anti LGBT and the answer to that would be no, the same way as being Christian or Jewish doesn't.

Being a religious extremist is not all there is to religion, there are many gay Muslims just as there are gay Christians

I don't personally understand why they would want to be part of a religion that frequently demonizes and doesn't want them, but at the end of the day its not the religion doing that, its other followers of the religion and bigots exist among atheist communities as well

Yes it is the religion. That's where you're wrong.

Have you ever read the Bible or Qur'an? Do you know what Muslims believe?

you don't have to be religious to be a misogynist or homophobe, in fact there are plenty of people who aren't, enough I would think to prove that the issue is not specifically one of religion

The Qur'an and Bible were written by primitive men, so it's not surprising that current standards of morality are different to those of the time when the books were written. Many religious people see their books as better guides for morality than the secular world.

Women are one of the beneficiaries of secular society. If you can't see that Islam is in some way responsible for mysogny and homophobia, I think you could benefit from doing some reading on topic.

 

[10571z]

The Burqa should be banned. Ridiculous concept which in no way assimilates to western culture.

 

[Carringbush2010]

All of them.

Where is the uproar about people that fly in? All the press and the angst is 'stop the boats'.

All of them? If that were the case then society would look a lot worse than it does now.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

The Burqa should be banned. Ridiculous concept which in no way assimilates to western culture.

But isn't Western culture based on some old books from the Middle East?

 

[SaintsSeptember]

The Burqa should be banned. Ridiculous concept which in no way assimilates to western culture.

Should gorilla masks be banned?
I don't normally wear one, but i like to think i could if i wanted to.

 

[evolved2]

And neither are laws proposed by conservatives forcing women not to, on pain of criminal prosecution.

Women should be able to choose for themselves what to wear.

How many non-Muslim women choose to wear a burqa? Do you think all women and girls wearing a burqa or hijab choose to?

Misgendering and transphobia increases the feelings of hostility felt by transgender people:



https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/26895269.2023.2278064#d1e2468

Which contributes to this:



https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5178031/

Yes I'm aware.

Would you be happy, neutral or sad if one of the women in your life - a friend, family, etc, converted to Islam and chose to wear a burqa?

 

[Ghost Patrol]

How many non-Muslim women choose to wear a burqa? Do you think all women and girls wearing a burqa or hijab choose to?

Yes I'm aware.

Would you be happy, neutral or sad if one of the women in your life - a friend, family, etc, converted to Islam and chose to wear a burqa?

Have you ever worn a beanie to the footy?

 

[evolved2]

Have you ever worn a beanie to the footy?

No. I like to show off my big bald beautiful head!

 

[Ghost Patrol]

No. I like to show off my big bald beautiful head!

If we gonna ban the burqa, should we ban head wear from other religions?

 

[Malifice]

How many non-Muslim women choose to wear a burqa? Do you think all women and girls wearing a burqa or hijab choose to?

Here in Australia they do, and if they're being forced to wear it that's grounds for a Family Violence Restraining Order against the man that makes them (coercive control) which is also a crime in every jurisdiction outside of WA (where I live).

Criminalizing wearing a Burqua penalizes women who actively choose to wear one (of their own free will) my making their choice of what to wear a crime. And it should not be a crime if my Wife converts to Sunni Islam, goes full on Salaffi and choose to wear the thing.

Women should be free to wear whatever they damn want, as long as it harms no-one else.

If you want to make it a crime for a Man to force a Woman to wear an item of clothing in the private sphere, I'm all ears however.

That makes Nun habits a crime, and fathers telling daughters 'you're not leaving the house in that' a crime as well though.

Would you be happy, neutral or sad if one of the women in your life - a friend, family, etc, converted to Islam and chose to wear a burqa?

Seeing as I'm Agnostic, I'd be sad if a woman in my life (or a man) choose any damn religion. They're all stupid. It's no different if they became in evangelical born again, or joined Scientology.

Islam is among the top of the list in the religions I detest the most as well.

But its her life and her choice. And that's what I ultimately respect.

I'd try and talk her out of it (just like if a mate joined any religion), but if she's happy living her life that way, then good for her.

 

[evolved2]

Here in Australia they do, and if they're being forced to wear it that's grounds for a Family Violence Restraining Order against the man that makes them (coercive control) which is also a crime in every jurisdiction outside of WA (where I live).

Criminalizing wearing a Burqua penalizes women who actively choose to wear one (of their own free will) my making their choice of what to wear a crime. And it should not be a crime if my Wife converts to Sunni Islam, goes full on Salaffi and choose to wear the thing.

Women should be free to wear whatever they damn want, as long as it harms no-one else.

If you want to make it a crime for a Man to force a Woman to wear an item of clothing in the private sphere, I'm all ears however.

That makes Nun habits a crime, and fathers telling daughters 'you're not leaving the house in that' a crime as well though.



Seeing as I'm Agnostic, I'd be sad if a woman in my life (or a man) choose any damn religion. They're all stupid. It's no different if they became in evangelical born again, or joined Scientology.

Islam is among the top of the list in the religions I detest the most as well.

But its her life and her choice. And that's what I ultimately respect.

I'd try and talk her out of it (just like if a mate joined any religion), but if she's happy living her life that way, then good for her.

I wouldn't ban the burqa even though I despise what it represents.

 

[skipper kelly]

If we gonna ban the burqa, should we ban head wear from other religions?

Yes

 

[evolved2]

If we gonna ban the burqa, should we ban head wear from other religions?

They can wear whatever they want.

 

[Malifice]

I wouldn't ban the burqa even though I despise what it represents.

Same here.

Ditto with Scientology.

People can worship who (or however) they want, and it's none of my business as long as they keep their snouts of of lawmaking (Fred Nile and the Christian political parties) and harm no-one else.

We only get one journey through life. It's up to you how you do it.

 

[Malifice]

Yes

So Popes hats and Jewish skullcaps are banned.

What about beanies and baseball caps?

 

[Carringbush2010]

As long as you continue to think it’s not a problem until you see pitchforks (or hoods), you are contributing to the problem by attempting to diminish it. The pitchforks only seem reasonable to some because they know they have plenty that feel the same sentiment behind, just a little more circumspect about how they show it. It’s the final step.

I've never said, suggested or alluded these aren't problems, how many times do I to state this before everyone who makes this claim about me actually reads my posts?

I'm talking about the scale! Not that it's not a problem.

Problem fringe groups are not societal threats. Yes they're a problem, but let's not pretend the world is ending tomorrow.

IF these groups were the majority of society, then we would see Armageddon, but we don't, because they're minority groups.

yet, everyone gets defensive and give the impression Armageddon is going on.

Same as those on here who allude that islam is some sort of bogeyman and is gonna take over our way of life.

You or anyone else are welcome to call it 'diminishing ' or that I'm the 'problem ', just as much as I can call out the ridiculous assertion that neo nazis live on every street corner, or every pom is out to get any poc.

But nah I'm the loony here.

 

[Carringbush2010]

The Burqa should be banned. Ridiculous concept which in no way assimilates to western culture.

Why does everything and everyone have to assimilate to western culture?

This is a rather isolationist view point, no wonder everyone thinks you're a trump fan.

 

[skipper kelly]

So Popes hats and Jewish skullcaps are banned.

What about beanies and baseball caps?

If we gonna ban the burqa, should we ban head wear from other religions?

"Yes".

If hats and skullcaps are head wear from other religions then Yes, ban them, if we are gonna ban the burqa.

If beanies and baseball caps are head wear from other religions then Yes ban them, if we are gonna ban the burqa.