Society/Culture Why I blame Islam for the fact it's raining today.... part 2

[Chief]

Reminder: This isn't the Israel/Hamas thread. Go to the Israel/Hamas thread if you want to talk about that. Thanks.

Mid East - Israel declare war after Hamas attack II

Part I: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/israel-declare-war-after-hamas-attack.1371828/page-47#post-81443295 Thread Rules: Alright. I recognise that this is a fraught topic for any number of you posting here. Some of you will have family in Israel or Palestine. Some of you will have...

www.bigfooty.com

Thread rules update:

From this point if you're going to make a connection between Islam and the crime rate, you need to demonstrate causation in your post. If you do not, I'm going to infract you for the inherent racism in the position you're taking.

 

[Chief]

the UKs refusal to prosecute the perpatrators.

You mean the trials that were actually happening and that the ****ing idiot tried to derail on a Facebook stream so he could rake in money to spend on seshs with his "mates"?

 

[CM86]

Do you think sympathy towards Hamas would be a fringe view amongst Australian Muslims?

Yes...
How many Muslims do you know or talk to?
I know more Catholics that are sympathetic to Hamas (due to ignorance and apathy) than any Muslims (0).

How many Muslims in Australia do you know, that would like to have Jews killed???

I think it is a trick question as you are trying to get me to stumble on support vs willing to do.

I think the average Australian Muslim would not be a risk of committing terrorism, but would probably be sympathetic to Hamas if you quizzed them on their views.

It's wild that you have this position.
How many Christians do you know, that would like to have non-whites locked up until their citizenship is proven? None? Same...

But you think fellow Aussie Muslims want to exterminate an entire race??
Genuinely??

 

[ElectricG]

Yes...
How many Muslims do you know or talk to?
I know more Catholics that are sympathetic to Hamas (due to ignorance and apathy) than any Muslims (0).

How many Muslims in Australia do you know, that would like to have Jews killed???


It's wild that you have this position.
How many Christians do you know, that would like to have non-whites locked up until their citizenship is proven? None? Same...

But you think fellow Aussie Muslims want to exterminate an entire race??
Genuinely??

You just keep asking the same question over and over and I would like to discontinue the conversation.

 

[sr36]

Here's some homework for you:

How many of the top 30 terrorist organisations in the world are Islamic and how many of them have their stated goal as the complete destruction of Israel and eradication of the Jewish people?

Next, tell us the Jewish populations in Arab nations before the Arab-Israeli war in 1948 compared to after Israel won. Bear in mind, those people were native to those Arab nations, not people of Israel.

Then try rationalising to us why you think it's a 'presumptive' statement.

Nobody's suggesting they represent the opinions of all Muslims but it's naive to think there aren't a lot who do think this way.

It's not like the ones who do think that way are particularly secretive, as evidenced by 2 NSW health workers openly saying it on a live stream, while wearing their uniform.

Nobody's buying it was a 'joke'...

You might want to read the statement I said was presumptive. Nothing you wrote has even the slightest relation to it, yet you referenced presumptive twice and treated it like some sort of smoking gun.

You then might want to follow the conversation back and look at how many of the organisations that you speak of in the first paragraph stem from the countries I spoke of.

 

[bzparkes]

You might want to read the statement I said was presumptive. Nothing you wrote has even the slightest relation to it, yet you referenced presumptive twice and treated it like some sort of smoking gun.

You then might want to follow the conversation back and look at how many of the organisations that you speak of in the first paragraph stem from the countries I spoke of.

Pakistan and Indonesia?

Here's some research from the Pew institute for you to ponder. It's from 2010 but I can't imagine it's be too different today.

Doesn't mention the other 2 countries but data would suggest similar results.

Chapter 3. Views of Religious Groups

In the predominantly Muslim nations surveyed, views of Jews are largely unfavorable. Nearly all in Jordan (97%), the Palestinian territories (97%) and

www.pewresearch.org

 

[sr36]

Pakistan and Indonesia?

Here's some research from the Pew institute for you to ponder. It's from 2010 but I can't imagine it's be too different today.

Doesn't mention the other 2 countries but data would suggest similar results.

Chapter 3. Views of Religious Groups

In the predominantly Muslim nations surveyed, views of Jews are largely unfavorable. Nearly all in Jordan (97%), the Palestinian territories (97%) and

www.pewresearch.org

There's about 14 Jews combined in Pakistani and Indonesia. Pakistani and Indonesian terrorist groups aren't killing Jews. Like most Islamic terrorist groups, they're mainly killing liberal Muslims.

Fundamentalism in the Islamic world is about conservative control of the Islamic world. By an enormous percentage, Muslims are the victims of islamic terrorist groups. You're not the one really at threat it's liberal Muslims who are actually at threat.

And do you know the arguments they run with. That liberal intellectual muslim r*ped someone - they're raping all the woman and destroying our society. That liberal made a video about killing their enemy. Find a liberal Muslim whose done something wrong and it's because they're not adhering to the beliefs we demand of them. Label the entirety who aren't the same by anyone who transgresses. It's the conservative tactic all over the world from Tehran to New York to London to bigfooty.

Many should celebrate Iran. Like most countries in the world at the moment, the conservatives who want to banish and ostacize those who don't fit the conservative mold demanded are winning. Several in this thread would be well at home in that regime. Tehran is doing you proud, upholding the conservative flag.

 

[ZEV]

There's about 14 Jews combined in Pakistani and Indonesia. Pakistani and Indonesian terrorist groups aren't killing Jews. Like most Islamic terrorist groups, they're mainly killing liberal Muslims.

Fundamentalism in the Islamic world is about conservative control of the Islamic world. By an enormous percentage, Muslims are the victims of islamic terrorist groups. You're not the one really at threat it's liberal Muslims who are actually at threat.

And do you know the arguments they run with. That liberal intellectual muslim r*ped someone - they're raping all the woman and destroying our society. That liberal made a video about killing their enemy. Find a liberal Muslim whose done something wrong and it's because they're not adhering to the beliefs we demand of them. Label the entirety who aren't the same by anyone who transgresses. It's the conservative tactic all over the world from Tehran to New York to London to bigfooty.

Many should celebrate Iran. Like most countries in the world at the moment, the conservatives who want to banish and ostacize those who don't fit the conservative mold demanded are winning. Several in this thread would be well at home in that regime. Tehran is doing you proud, upholding the conservative flag.

I can name more than 14 in Bali right now…

Agree with what you say here though

 

[bzparkes]

There's about 14 Jews combined in Pakistani and Indonesia.

Yes, my point exactly. Why do you think there are so few?

Pakistani and Indonesian terrorist groups aren't killing Jews. Like most Islamic terrorist groups, they're mainly killing liberal Muslims.

Of course they aren't killing Jews, there's next to none left in their countries.

Umar Patek said in his parole hearing(bloke who put the bombs together for the Bali bombings) that his intended target was Israelis in retaliation for Palestine.

Fundamentalism in the Islamic world is about conservative control of the Islamic world. By an enormous percentage, Muslims are the victims of islamic terrorist groups. You're not the one really at threat it's liberal Muslims who are actually at threat.

Of course they are victims, because Shiite and Sunni Muslims hate each other and every other minority has been repressed, or fled their countries entirely.

And do you know the arguments they run with. That liberal intellectual muslim r*ped someone - they're raping all the woman and destroying our society. That liberal made a video about killing their enemy. Find a liberal Muslim whose done something wrong and it's because they're not adhering to the beliefs we demand of them. Label the entirety who aren't the same by anyone who transgresses. It's the conservative tactic all over the world from Tehran to New York to London to bigfooty.

You're going to have to explain this part better, in your haste to type it out, it appears you made no sense.

Many should celebrate Iran. Like most countries in the world at the moment, the conservatives who want to banish and ostacize those who don't fit the conservative mold demanded are winning. Several in this thread would be well at home in that regime. Tehran is doing you proud, upholding the conservative flag.

Again, unsure what point you're attempting to make here but as for the Iranian people, I feel immensely sad for them having to live under a brutalist regime that nobody wanted and are powerless to do anything against.

 

[sr36]

I can name more than 14 in Bali right now…

Agree with what you say here though

Pretty sure Bali has been annexed by Aussie bogans and is no longer part of Indonesia - the west coast at least.

 

[sr36]

You're going to have to explain this part better, in your haste to type it out, it appears you made no senese

I'm paralelling the conservatives of the Islamic world with those of the Western world.

The real battle isn't Islam Vs Christianity. It's conservative versus liberal. Whether it's the conservatives in Tehran wanting to banish liberal Muslims, or the conservatives of this thread running the same arguments about Muslims or whoever else they move onto next - it's the same rubbish.

See, a Muslim committed a crime, they're a threat to our way of life. We've got to get rid of Muslims. They all side with terrorists. Or as Khomeini would say: See, a liberal committed a crime, they're a threat to our way of life. They all side with the great terrorists - the USA.

 

[bzparkes]

I'm paralelling the conservatives of the Islamic world with those of the Western world.

The real battle isn't Islam Vs Christianity. It's conservative versus liberal. Whether it's the conservatives in Tehran wanting to banish liberal Muslims, or the conservatives of this thread running the same arguments about Muslims or whoever else they move onto next - it's the same rubbish.

See, a Muslim committed a crime, they're a threat to our way of life. We've got to get rid of Muslims. Or as Khomeini would say: See, a liberal committed a crime, they're a threat to our way of life.

Ok, fair enough but Islam is, by nature, conservative.

You won't see much, if any, support for things like LGBTQ, for example.

 

[Gethelred]

Ok, fair enough but Islam is, by nature, conservative.

You won't see much, if any, support for things like LGBTQ, for example.

I mean, there is a history of homosexuality being accepted with stigma within Islamic circles until the spread of Wahhabism - ie, ultra conservative, fundamentalist Al Saud and oil money backed Islam - outlawed and persecuted people for it.

Wahhabism does that to an awful lot of people for an awful lot of awful reasons. Sykes-Picot (the French and the English) have an awful lot to answer for.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Ok, fair enough but Islam is, by nature, conservative.

You won't see much, if any, support for things like LGBTQ, for example.

None of the old religions are.

 

[bzparkes]

None of the old religions are.

Of course not.

Catholicism appears to be making an attempt to make some inroads in recent years though.

How much is lip-service and how much is actually genuine is another discussion altogether.

 

[bzparkes]

I mean, there is a history of homosexuality being accepted with stigma within Islamic circles until the spread of Wahhabism - ie, ultra conservative, fundamentalist Al Saud and oil money backed Islam - outlawed and persecuted people for it.

Wahhabism does that to an awful lot of people for an awful lot of awful reasons. Sykes-Picot (the French and the English) have an awful lot to answer for.

Well, the fundamentalist oil backed regimes certainly stopped any progressive nature Islam once had, that's for sure.

It's a shame the region has gone so backward since the Islamic revolution in the middle-east, no doubt backed by USA government desperate for unfettered access to oil at the time, I imagine.

 

[sr36]

Ok, fair enough but Islam is, by nature, conservative.

You won't see much, if any, support for things like LGBTQ, for example.

I'm talking conservative and liberal, as the distinction - not conservative and progressive. However, conservative is the wrong term. A better phrase would be "those demanding uniformity" vs liberals. Conservatives/Progressives viewed as a set of beliefs or stances on particular issues can both fall on either side of that divide.

Christianity and Islam are obviously prohibitive doctrines. But Christians and Muslims don't all demand that the whole of the world or the whole of society or the whole of a group adheres to their interpretation of the doctrine. Some obviously do. And those that do are the issue.

 

[carltonchelsea]

Is this sarcasm? Or are you talking about England specifically?

Pick any random country on the planet that has had the Catholic Church as a force in it.
How bout we just say men, men are the problem in regards to child sexual torture.

 

[sr36]

Of course not.

Catholicism appears to be making an attempt to make some inroads in recent years though.

How much is lip-service and how much is actually genuine is another discussion altogether.

The more we know about a group, the more we see diversity. When we discuss Christians we break it up into different sects and understand that different views are being pushed by and within the sect, which is what occurs when comparing churches. Catholicism is a massive sect, but it does have a centralised voice in the pope - however, that voice has never been representative of the whole of catholicism - the Pope's voice comes from an enormous amount of debate amongst Catholics with diverse views, which is why there is the gradual shifts that you're talking about - or the more dramatic split of the protestant movement centuries ago. Obviously this diversity is vast when you factor in all of the other Christian groups in the world and we get that and don't view all Christians as having the same perspective.

Islam also has enormous diversity of views. However, the less people know about Islam or another cultural group the more likely it is that people will view them as a single voice - and if they listen to the far right regarding Islam, that single voice is of Islamic extremists looking to force everyone in society to have the same views. Algorithms then push them more and more similar content and their views built from a lack of knowledge about Islam become an entrenched view of Islam as a single extremist voice.

But it's not just religion with extremists looking to create societies where everyone has the same view. The same way of thinking is present in the views of Tommy Robinson or those pushing the idea that a singular "Aussie way of life" is under threat due to the presence of Islam or any other cultural group. The ridiculous thing is that people pushing this stuff in the West carry on about freedom - when they're opposed to it - freedom and allowing diversity are ultimately the same thing.

 

[ElectricG]

The more we know about a group, the more we see diversity. When we discuss Christians we break it up into different sects and understand that different views are being pushed by and within the sect, which is what occurs when comparing churches.

I don’t think this is true at all. People are free to say that the Catholic Church has a terrible history of child abuse. I never once saw someone bringing any sort of “ahem, Anglican or Greek Orthodox? Huh? Huh?” pedantry into the conversation.

If this conversation were to take place it would be a case of:
1. The person making the initial comment is saying something which is plainly true
2. The other person is trying to muddy the waters by making it so nobody is allowed to criticise the Catholic Church until they are an expert on catholic denominations and sub denominations

But alas this type of thing only happens when discussing Islam.

 

[sr36]

I don’t think this is true at all. People are free to say that the Catholic Church has a terrible history of child abuse. I never once saw someone bringing any sort of “ahem, Anglican or Greek Orthodox? Huh? Huh?” pedantry into the conversation.

If this conversation were to take place it would be a case of:
1. The person making the initial comment is saying something which is plainly true
2. The other person is trying to muddy the waters by making it so nobody is allowed to criticise the Catholic Church until they are an expert on catholic denominations and sub denominations

But alas this type of thing only happens when discussing Islam.

You're illustrating my point. We know and we understand about the diversity of Christian organisations, sects and views. So when criticising a section of Christianity, it's isolated to that section. It is usually "the Catholic Church has a terrible history of child abuse." It's not usually "Christians have a terrible history of child abuse." Nor is it "Catholics have a terrible history of child abuse." We limit it to the organisation itself and individual perpetrators and enablers within that organisation rather than the whole Catholic community - let alone the whole Christian community.

Most know little about diversity within Islam, so it's often "Islam has a terrible history of terrorism." or "Muslims have a terrible history of terrorism." And amongst many, this lack of understanding of Islamic diversity means that it applies to all Muslims, regardless of how far away their views or their mosques or imams or Islamic sects views diverge from that of the terrorist group.

And in terms of your imaginary conversation. There would and should be enormous pushback if the crimes of the Catholic Church were regularly and consistently attributed to all Catholics or all Christian churches or all of Christianity. You are expected to understand that the things done by the Catholic Church aren't attributable to all Catholics, all churches or all Christians. If you live in Western society, you'd be ignorant to think they were.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Pick any random country on the planet that has had the Catholic Church as a force in it.
How bout we just say men, men are the problem in regards to child sexual torture.

I'm no psychiatrist , but i suspect that part of the issue is that those with .... certain urges, dealt with it by joining the Priesthood where their urges would be safely repressed. Oops.

And while they Priesthood didn't encourage that sort of thing, they did tend towards forgiveness.

 

[ElectricG]

You're illustrating my point. We know and we understand about the diversity of Christian organisations, sects and views. So when criticising a section of Christianity, it's isolated to that section. It is usually "the Catholic Church has a terrible history of child abuse." It's not usually "Christians have a terrible history of child abuse." Nor is it "Catholics have a terrible history of child abuse." We limit it to the organisation itself and individual perpetrators and enablers within that organisation rather than the whole Catholic community - let alone the whole Christian community.

Most know little about diversity within Islam, so it's often "Islam has a terrible history of terrorism." or "Muslims have a terrible history of terrorism." And amongst many, this lack of understanding of Islamic diversity means that it applies to all Muslims, regardless of how far away their views or their mosques or imams or Islamic sects views diverge from that of the terrorist group.

And in terms of your imaginary conversation. There would and should be enormous pushback if the crimes of the Catholic Church were regularly and consistently attributed to all Catholics or all Christian churches or all of Christianity. You are expected to understand that the things done by the Catholic Church aren't attributable to all Catholics, all churches or all Christians. If you live in Western society, you'd be ignorant to think they were.

But everyone in the world knows the difference between Catholicism and Christianity.

As for my imaginary conversation, it’s about associating wrongdoing with that religion or church. Nobody in their right mind would deny a historical association between Catholicism (as opposed to every practicing individual) and child sex abuse. You wouldn’t get bogged down with all these clarifications and caveats even though I’m sure there are subsets and specific churches of Catholicism which did not have this particular problem.

Any attempt to speak generally about Islam is met with the type of obfuscation you don’t see when criticising other religions.

Let me ask you this: would you be more accepting of criticising Islam (re: extremism mostly) if people specified Sunni Islam before speaking?

 

[CM86]

But everyone in the world knows the difference between Catholicism and Christianity.

What's the difference?

 

[Ghost Patrol]

But everyone in the world knows the difference between Catholicism and Christianity.

Catholics are christians, but not all christians are catholic.

They all use the same book. Same alleged god etc.

 

[Gethelred]

But everyone in the world knows the difference between Catholicism and Christianity.

As for my imaginary conversation, it’s about associating wrongdoing with that religion or church. Nobody in their right mind would deny a historical association between Catholicism (as opposed to every practicing individual) and child sex abuse. You wouldn’t get bogged down with all these clarifications and caveats even though I’m sure there are subsets and specific churches of Catholicism which did not have this particular problem.

Any attempt to speak generally about Islam is met with the type of obfuscation you don’t see when criticising other religions.

Let me ask you this: would you be more accepting of criticising Islam (re: extremism mostly) if people specified Sunni Islam before speaking?

If people specifically mentioned Wahhabism as the target of their ire, you'd have pretty close to my full support.