Society/Culture Why I blame Islam for the fact it's raining today.... part 2

[Chief]

Reminder: This isn't the Israel/Hamas thread. Go to the Israel/Hamas thread if you want to talk about that. Thanks.

Mid East - Israel declare war after Hamas attack II

Part I: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/israel-declare-war-after-hamas-attack.1371828/page-47#post-81443295 Thread Rules: Alright. I recognise that this is a fraught topic for any number of you posting here. Some of you will have family in Israel or Palestine. Some of you will have...

www.bigfooty.com

Thread rules update:

From this point if you're going to make a connection between Islam and the crime rate, you need to demonstrate causation in your post. If you do not, I'm going to infract you for the inherent racism in the position you're taking.

 

[sr36]

But everyone in the world knows the difference between Catholicism and Christianity.

As for my imaginary conversation, it’s about associating wrongdoing with that religion or church. Nobody in their right mind would deny a historical association between Catholicism (as opposed to every practicing individual) and child sex abuse. You wouldn’t get bogged down with all these clarifications and caveats even though I’m sure there are subsets and specific churches of Catholicism which did not have this particular problem.

Any attempt to speak generally about Islam is met with the type of obfuscation you don’t see when criticising other religions.

Let me ask you this: would you be more accepting of criticising Islam (re: extremism mostly) if people specified Sunni Islam before speaking?

Many from non-Christian cultures differentiate between different branches of Christianity to the same extent that you differentiate between different branches of Islam - eg. not at all. Not everyone has the knowledge base around christianity expected of a Westerner. Just as many Westerners don't have the knowledge base aroung Islam that you'd expect in an Islamic society.

No qualms at all with a lack of knowledge or you criticising apects of Islam or particular Islamic groups and individuals and their actions or things you don't like about scripture or interpretations of it. But taking valid criticisms of sections of the islamic world and then applying it to all of Islam is the equivalent of calling all Christians kiddy fiddlers due to the scandals of the Catholic Church - it's ignorant and inaccurate. Just criticise the groups and the individuals rather than the whole of Islam - like you would if they were Christian groups or individuals doing things you don't like.

It's really not hard to understand that all countries and cultures have debate and disagreement - a huge variety of beliefs and ideas - you actually don't need any understanding of individual cultures or groups to know that one section of that group doesn't represent the whole group.

 

[faible]

Many from non-Christian cultures differentiate between different branches of Christianity to the same extent that you differentiate between different branches of Islam - eg. not at all. Not everyone has the knowledge base around christianity expected of a Westerner. Just as many Westerners don't have the knowledge base aroung Islam that you'd expect in an Islamic society.

No qualms at all with a lack of knowledge or you criticising apects of Islam or particular Islamic groups and individuals and their actions or things you don't like about scripture or interpretations of it. But taking valid criticisms of sections of the islamic world and then applying it to all of Islam is the equivalent of calling all Christians kiddy fiddlers due to the scandals of the Catholic Church - it's ignorant, inaccurate and hate filled. Just criticise the groups and the individuals rather than the whole of Islam - like you would if they were Christian.

It's really not hard to understand that all countries and cultures have debate and disagreement - a huge variety of beliefs and ideas - you actually don't need any understanding of individual cultures or groups to know that one section of that group doesn't represent the whole group.

People criticising Islam convenient forget the single biggest Islamic population is the ~ 240m Indonesian Muslims. It's always the trope of the Arab Muslim Jihadi as being representative of all Muslims and the total and utter refusal to learn or acknowledge anything.

You've got the best part of 2/3 of the worlds Muslim population living in Asia (Indonesia, Pakistan, India, Bangladesh alone have around ~ 800 million of the ~ 1.9 billion global Muslim population).

 

[10571z]

how an anyone possibly defend this?

 

[Ghost Patrol]

how an anyone possibly defend this?

I don't think anyone is trying to defend Drew Pavlou.

 

[JackOutback]

Umm, not to be pedantic but you get charged with conspiracy to murder/attempted murder if it's unsuccessful, so it's still a crime.

Attempted murder, pfft, can you win a Nobel Prize for attempted chemistry?

 

[10571z]

I don't think anyone is trying to defend Drew Pavlou.

Maybe watch the video. Laughable anyone dares trying to defend this. Should be condemned…

 

[Ghost Patrol]

Maybe watch the video. Laughable anyone dares trying to defend this. Should be condemned…

Do you think it's as bad as that time Drew Pavlou threatened to blow up the Chinese embassy?

Australian China critic detained in UK over alleged bomb threat

Drew Pavlou says he was kept in custody overnight by British police and held incommunicado over allegations he had emailed a bomb threat to the Chinese embassy before a protest in London.

www.abc.net.au

Do you condemn Drew Pavlou?

 

[carltonchelsea]

I'm no psychiatrist , but i suspect that part of the issue is that those with .... certain urges, dealt with it by joining the Priesthood where their urges would be safely repressed. Oops.

And while they Priesthood didn't encourage that sort of thing, they did tend towards forgiveness.

Scouts, sporting orgs, teachers/education, government agencies, religion etc.
Anywhere that gives you access to the young and vulnerable=predators!
Religion differs however, as it gives the perpetrators a sense of security, or protection.
The only other groups that had the realisation of protection like religion did was the government agencies or the “scouting fraternity”
of which me and my family have personal knowledge of.

 

[schneebly111]

So Sky cookers are blaming the nurses and midwives union for anti Semitism.....

After they condemn anti Semitism.......

https://www.skynews.com.au/australia-news/jewish-association-unleashes-on-nurses-union-over-mention-of-islamophobia-in-woke-response-to-antisemitic-video-of-nsw-health-workers/news-story/55780cfe26c390f7804c80b492bc2578

 

[sr36]

So Sky cookers are blaming the nurses and midwives union for anti Semitism.....

After they condemn anti Semitism.......

https://www.skynews.com.au/australia-news/jewish-association-unleashes-on-nurses-union-over-mention-of-islamophobia-in-woke-response-to-antisemitic-video-of-nsw-health-workers/news-story/55780cfe26c390f7804c80b492bc2578

Apparently you can't condemn Islamophobia in relation to events that we can clearly see are being used to push Islamophobic ideas.

 

[Sinjin Smith]

how an anyone possibly defend this?

I dont find her video concerning.

 

[schneebly111]

Apparently you can't condemn Islamophobia in relation to events that we can clearly see are being used to push Islamophobic ideas.

It's like how post Oct 7 the right lost their marbles at anyone calling for Israel to show restraint in their retaliation or abide by the rules of war.

Reminds me of this published 24 years ago but still so true

https://theonion.com/we-must-retaliate-with-blind-rage-vs-we-must-retaliate-1819594273/

 

[peetoo]

And the guys who are the alleged fire bombers are nothing remotely like muslim

 

[sr36]

It's like how post Oct 7 the right lost their marbles at anyone calling for Israel to show restraint in their retaliation or abide by the rules of war.

Reminds me of this published 24 years ago but still so true

https://theonion.com/we-must-retaliate-with-blind-rage-vs-we-must-retaliate-1819594273/

Apparently, you have to choose to be in opposition to anti-Semitism or Islamophobia. You can't possibly think they both suck. That would be un-Australian. You pick a team and barrack for them. It's the Aussie way.

 

[peetoo]

Apparently, you have to choose to be in opposition to anti-Semitism or Islamophobia. You can't possibly think they both suck. That would be un-Australian. You pick a team and barrack for them. It's the Aussie way.

They’re all the same to me and I resent either side bringing their bullshit here

 

[ElectricG]

Many from non-Christian cultures differentiate between different branches of Christianity to the same extent that you differentiate between different branches of Islam - eg. not at all. Not everyone has the knowledge base around christianity expected of a Westerner. Just as many Westerners don't have the knowledge base aroung Islam that you'd expect in an Islamic society.

No qualms at all with a lack of knowledge or you criticising apects of Islam or particular Islamic groups and individuals and their actions or things you don't like about scripture or interpretations of it. But taking valid criticisms of sections of the islamic world and then applying it to all of Islam is the equivalent of calling all Christians kiddy fiddlers due to the scandals of the Catholic Church - it's ignorant and inaccurate. Just criticise the groups and the individuals rather than the whole of Islam - like you would if they were Christian groups or individuals doing things you don't like.

It's really not hard to understand that all countries and cultures have debate and disagreement - a huge variety of beliefs and ideas - you actually don't need any understanding of individual cultures or groups to know that one section of that group doesn't represent the whole group.

I feel that this is just more of the exact obfuscation I’ve been complaining about. It is the classic “if you can’t speak generally you can’t speak at all”. If this approach was taken to child sexual abuse in the Catholic Church, nothing would ever have been done because we’d never get beyond the “well it’s not all churches and it’s not all Catholics” phase in the debate.

 

[sr36]

I feel that this is just more of the exact obfuscation I’ve been complaining about. It is the classic “if you can’t speak generally you can’t speak at all”. If this approach was taken to child sexual abuse in the Catholic Church, nothing would ever have been done because we’d never get beyond the “well it’s not all churches and it’s not all Catholics” phase in the debate.

Think about why you specify the Catholic Church when talking about the abhorrent sex crimes and cover ups, rather than broadening it to Catholics or more broadly Christians.

Would you be comfortable with someone saying:

Did you hear about the sexual abuse ring that the Christians have been doing? Christians are paedophiles.

 

[ElectricG]

Think about why you specify the Catholic Church when talking about the abhorrent sex crimes and cover ups, rather than broadening it to Catholics or more broadly Christians.

Would you be comfortable with someone saying:

Did you hear about the sexual abuse ring that the Christians have been doing? Christians are paedophiles.

I don’t agree with you that the difference between Catholics and non-Catholic Christians is some nuance that only westerners would understand.

Would you accept and association with extremism if I specified Sunni Islam? I know I’ve already asked this but I don’t really feel that it was answered.

 

[CM86]

You just keep asking the same question over and over and I would like to discontinue the conversation.

I don't know you. And I was wrong to assume an understanding.

 

[ElectricG]

I don't know you. And I was wrong to assume an understanding.

That is pretty full on CM…

 

[sr36]

I don’t agree with you that the difference between Catholics and non-Catholic Christians is some nuance that only westerners would understand.

Would you accept and association with extremism if I specified Sunni Islam? I know I’ve already asked this but I don’t really feel that it was answered.

How much do most Australians know about the different branches of Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism? Yet you assume that Islamic, Hindu and Buddhist communities have a very strong understanding of the different branches of Christianity?

Sunni Islam isn't centralised like the Roman Catholic church, so the comparison doesn't work. A better example would be to compare a generalised characterisation of Sunny Islam with a generalised Protestant characterisation.

If someone was to find atrocities committed by protestants or Protestant clergy and used them to make broad sweeping statements about protestants, protestant churches and their views and what they preach, I'd think they were ignorant. I think it would be ridiculous to try to portray the diversity of Protestantism with sweeping generalisations or views about protestants and protestant views. It doesn't happen very often in Australia because we know a lot more about the diversity of Christianity, but it happens all the time with Islam.

 

[ElectricG]

Yet you assume that Islamic, Hindu and Buddhist communities have a very strong understanding of the different branches of Christianity?

I don’t think knowing Catholicism exists and is different constitutes a “very strong understanding”.

I think you are living by a set of rules that makes it almost impossible to criticise religion.

 

[sr36]

I don’t think knowing Catholicism exists and is different constitutes a “very strong understanding”.

I think you are living by a set of rules that makes it almost impossible to criticise religion.

I'm happy for people to criticise religions. I've read a lot of informed critiques over the years. But if you think knowing that there is a branch of Christianity called Catholicism and a branch of Islam called Sunni is enough to give you an informed opinion and able to criticise religions from a viewpoint that goes beyond your imagination, you're kidding yourself.

And if you think a valid criticism lumps all Muslims or Christians or huge sections of those faiths together with generalisations as though 1.7 billion Sunni Muslims from a huge range of cultures are a uniform bloc of thought, then your thoughts on the matter are not only imaginary, but ridiculous.

There was an excellent Tooheys add years ago. "Have the traditional Blue with your family this XMas." Families with enormously shared experiences, who've been brought up with the same faith can't agree on matters of politics and argue about how the world should be organised and how we should behave. Yet people try to describe a Bangladeshi living in a slum and a millionaire Arab in a Dubai penthouse as having the same view of the world, with generalisations about how Sunni Muslims think and behave. It's nuts

 

[Ghost Patrol]

I don’t think knowing Catholicism exists and is different constitutes a “very strong understanding”.

I think you are living by a set of rules that makes it almost impossible to criticise religion.

If you put a Toyota badge on a Commodore, it becomes a Lexcen.

 

[ElectricG]

I'm happy for people to criticise religions. I've read a lot of informed critiques over the years. But if you think knowing that there is a branch of Christianity called Catholicism and a branch of Islam called Sunni is enough to give you an informed opinion and able to criticise religions from a viewpoint that goes beyond your imagination, you're kidding yourself.

And if you think a valid criticism lumps all Muslims or Christians or huge sections of those faiths together with generalisations as though 1.7 billion Sunni Muslims from a huge range of cultures are a uniform bloc of thought, then your thoughts on the matter are not only imaginary, but ridiculous.

You don’t need to be an expert on denominations to criticise religion. You’re just throwing sand in the way people always do when they are defending Islam.

“Catholicism is responsible for a lot of child sex abuse”

“Oh really? Even the Roman Catholics?”

“****ed if I know”

“Oof you really should do your research before you generalise”


It’s a way of talking people out of making plainly obvious and correct observations.