Society/Culture Why I blame Islam for the fact it's raining today.... part 2

[Chief]

Reminder: This isn't the Israel/Hamas thread. Go to the Israel/Hamas thread if you want to talk about that. Thanks.

Mid East - Israel declare war after Hamas attack II

Part I: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/israel-declare-war-after-hamas-attack.1371828/page-47#post-81443295 Thread Rules: Alright. I recognise that this is a fraught topic for any number of you posting here. Some of you will have family in Israel or Palestine. Some of you will have...

www.bigfooty.com

Thread rules update:

From this point if you're going to make a connection between Islam and the crime rate, you need to demonstrate causation in your post. If you do not, I'm going to infract you for the inherent racism in the position you're taking.

 

[ElectricG]

Hitler - famous Muslim.

Great point chief. Nazis would agree with these nurses about the Jews.

 

[sr36]

So you were saying it’s all about the denomination or sect, and now you’ve completely walked away from that argument after being asked whether you think these individuals fit that description. How can you not see this? All you can do is respond with more babble.

And now you low key justify it with oh they’re upset about this war that probably has Jack shit to do with them.

The pure, unassailable fact is that these people would not be fantasising about the murder of Jews if they did not follow Islam.

Sorry. I over-estimated you I assumed that you were talking about terrorist sects with your claim that Islam is bad. I thought you were just ignorant to the breadth of Islam. I didn't realise that you were that far down the rabbit hole of idiocy that you attribute all negative thoughts and actions done by Muslims to the religion. That's loopy.

Did you bold the last paragraph because deep down you know just how moronic it is?

 

[ElectricG]

I didn't realise that you were that far down the rabbit hole of idiocy that you attribute all negative thoughts and actions done by Muslims to the religion. That's loopy.

You just… can’t be serious. What are you even saying? Of course this thing with the nurses is because of their religion. Having a murderous hatred for a race of people is not within the bounds of normal human imperfection.

 

[sr36]

You just… can’t be serious. What are you even saying? Of course this thing with the nurses is because of their religion. Having a murderous hatred for a race of people is not within the bounds of normal human imperfection.

Are you going to go into an Antisemitic carry on about Judaism being innately awful, if I post videos of Israelis boasting about killing Palestinians - there's lots of those videos around. Or maybe you could let rip about the horror of Christianity if I post some murderous comments from Christians about their opponents in war.

 

[ElectricG]

Are you going to go into an Antisemitic carry on about Judaism being innately awful, if I post videos of Israelis boasting about killing Palestinians - there's lots of those videos around. Or maybe you could let rip about the horror of Christianity if I post some murderous comments from Christians about their opponents in war.

If you want me to look at videos of Israeli soldiers bragging about killing Palestinians and think it’s equivalent on Jews on the other side of the world who have never set foot in Israel bragging about killing Muslims then not quite. Good luck finding that video.

But I won’t be performing the same contortions that you are. There’s an entire school of thought around the idea that all religion is bad and it is a compelling and valid one. Tell me you think Christianity or Judaism is bad because XYZ and I will at least own up to the facts.

 

[liz]

You just… can’t be serious. What are you even saying? Of course this thing with the nurses is because of their religion. Having a murderous hatred for a race of people is not within the bounds of normal human imperfection.

You realise there are plenty of antisemites who aren’t remotely Muslim? Hitler wasn’t a Muslim. I doubt many of the Proud Boys are. How about those (such as RFK Jr) who claimed that Covid was genetically engineered to spare Jews? Or Marjorie and her Jewish space lasers?

 

[sr36]

If you want me to look at videos of Israeli soldiers bragging about killing Palestinians and think it’s equivalent on Jews on the other side of the world who have never set foot in Israel bragging about killing Muslims then not quite. Good luck finding that video.

But I won’t be performing the same contortions that you are. There’s an entire school of thought around the idea that all religion is bad and it is a compelling and valid one. Tell me you think Christianity or Judaism is bad because XYZ and I will at least own up to the facts.

Recognising that there is a sect of Islam with ideology that is very different to most other Islamic sects, whilst also recognising that Islamic people are also motivated by things that sit outside of their religion is a contortion, is it? I'd say not recognising those things is ignorance.

Of course there are some Jews around the world making murderous comments about Palestinians. As there are Christians making murderous comments about followers of both faiths, or in the case of Jews - simply Jewish ancestry. And war can be a big driver of these thoughts. Why do you think there's been a spike in both Antisemitism and Islamophobia all around the world since this war began? Are you that naive that you think only Muslims make murderous comments about other groups?

Yes there is a school of thought making valid critiques from a position of knowledge about religion and even more commonly organised religion(s). You're not part of that school

You've enrolled yourself in a school of bigotry, coming from a position of prejudice, attributing every negative thing done by a Muslim to the religion they're associated with. And sharing anecdotes of wrongdoing by individuals as though it is a valid critique of a religion and its followers. Not seeming to understand that Muslims, like followers of every other faith, are driven by a whole range of thoughts and ideas outside of just their religion.

He's a Muslim. He did something bad. Therefore Islam is bad. The thinking is dumb and purely and simply prejudice. You can do the same for every race on the planet, every nationality, every religion, every broad category that we put people in to. However, you only think that way if you are bigoted and prejudiced and it's most likely to occur if you are ignorant regarding diversity within these groupings and view the grouping as the entirety of the person.

 

[ElectricG]

You realise there are plenty of antisemites who aren’t remotely Muslim? Hitler wasn’t a Muslim. I doubt many of the Proud Boys are. How about those (such as RFK Jr) who claimed that Covid was genetically engineered to spare Jews? Or Marjorie and her Jewish space lasers?

I don’t think is a very strong argument in defence of Islam. Yeah there are other ideologies that could lead someone to hate Jews. It’s not just Islam that leads people to hate Jews, it’s also nazism, fascism, and other offshoots of those.

Not exactly great company for Islam.

 

[sr36]

I don’t think is a very strong argument in defence of Islam. Yeah there are other ideologies that could lead someone to hate Jews. It’s not just Islam that leads people to hate Jews, it’s also nazism, fascism, and other offshoots of those.

Not exactly great company for Islam.

Considering your grouping the 2 billion Muslims with a vast range of different cultures and interpratations of Islam as a whole. An equivalent grouping that includes "Nazism and Fascism and other offshoots" would be Westerners. THe Western World leads to people hating Jews ...

In reality, the Western World is actually a more narrow grouping than the Islamic world.

 

[ElectricG]

Considering your grouping the 2 billion Muslims with a vast range of different cultures and interpratations of Islam as a whole. An equivalent grouping that includes "Nazism and Fascism and other offshoots" would be Westerners. THe Western World leads to people hating Jews ...

In reality, the Western World is actually a more narrow grouping than the Islamic world.

I’m sure there are things that make people in other countries think “bloody westerners” but I don’t think wanting to murder Jews would be one of them.

 

[liz]

I don’t think is a very strong argument in defence of Islam. Yeah there are other ideologies that could lead someone to hate Jews. It’s not just Islam that leads people to hate Jews, it’s also nazism, fascism, and other offshoots of those.

Not exactly great company for Islam.

That post wasn’t about defending Islam, but rather pointing out the inanity of claiming these two nurses must hate Jews because of their religion.

 

[sr36]

I’m sure there are things that make people in other countries think “bloody westerners” but I don’t think wanting to murder Jews would be one of them.

If using your logic, why not?

Centuries of anti-Semitism right across the Western World with the industrialization of massacring Jews a part of the history of the Western World, with groups and individuals right across the Western World still preaching the same tropes and the same hatred that led to that slaughter.

It wouldn't be hard to do what you do with the Islamic world and collect together anecdotes about individuals and groups from the West to create a caricature of the entire West as seeking the massacre of Jews.

Those sort of caricatures are easily believed by those who are ignorant about the diversity in the group that is being negatively stereotyped. Thus it can lead to enormous amounts of discrimination and even massacre and genocide. And it's what you do about the Islamic world.

 

[ElectricG]

That post wasn’t about defending Islam, but rather pointing out the inanity of claiming these two nurses must hate Jews because of their religion.

… well what else would be going on there?

 

[carltonchelsea]

You believe the events are an outlier opinion - you are wrong. Islam is a religion of hate.

As is Christianity and the cult that these two stole all their ideas from, Judaism.
If your going to attempt to appear insightful, at least be consistent.

 

[sr36]

… well what else would be going on there?

How do people form opinions? Do you think it's solely due to one's religious faith?

Do you dislike Islam because of your religious belief/disbelief?

 

[ElectricG]

How do people form opinions? Do you think it's solely due to one's religious faith?

Do you dislike Islam because of your religious belief/disbelief?

I am not religious.

Yes of course people can form opinions on things without the influence of religion. The odds that it’s what’s happened here seems slim to nil. Why else would they have been using so much religious language when talking about what they want to do?

 

[peetoo]

The alleged fire bombers of the synagogue now in custody couldn’t be less Muslim if they tried.

You aren’t hearing this but if the were, Duttons libs would be screaming in every media outlet

The caravan of explosives was nothing to do with semitism either

 

[sr36]

I am not religious.

Yes of course people can form opinions on things without the influence of religion. The odds that it’s what’s happened here seems slim to nil. Why else would they have been using so much religious language when talking about what they want to do?

They're probably using a lot of religious language because they're religious.

There's a brutal war in a long going conflict. People are more likely to side with those they identify with and have stronger feelings about it if the more they identify with one side. It's not a coincidence that Jews are more likely to side with Israel and Muslims are more likely to side with Palestine - they're more likely to identify with them. And for some, siding with one side crosses over into murderous hatred of the other side. However, those sidings and that hatred is not generally driven by the ideology of the particular religion, it's far more akin to tribalism than any of the modern religions.

It's also not a coincidence that Ireland, with it's history of 'occupation' and the terrorist response by the IRA, has been the Western country that has been the most critical towards Israel and the most sympathetic towards the Palestinian cause. They can more easily identify with the Palestinian perspective - they've lived something with significant similarities. You're more likely to side with what you identify with. It crosses religions, nations, and cultures.

 

[Achy Blakey Heart]

News around this morning that Veifer asked a friend to empty his locker who went to the police regarding the request, they found a vial of morphine in his locker.

 

[ElectricG]

There's a brutal war in a long going conflict. People are more likely to side with those they identify with and have stronger feelings about it if the more they identify with one side. It's not a coincidence that Jews are more likely to side with Israel and Muslims are more likely to side with Palestine - they're more likely to identify with them. And for some, siding with one side crosses over into murderous hatred of the other side. However, those sidings and that hatred is not generally driven by the ideology of the particular religion, it's far more akin to tribalism than any of the modern religions.

That’s just it though. Everyone picks a side. Who hasn’t picked a side in the Russia Ukraine war? But I never hear anyone talking about Russian civilians like they need to be exterminated like insects.

 

[JackOutback]

I don’t think is a very strong argument in defence of Islam. Yeah there are other ideologies that could lead someone to hate Jews. It’s not just Islam that leads people to hate Jews, it’s also nazism, fascism, and other offshoots of those.

Not exactly great company for Islam.

I don’t think there’s a strong argument in defence of any religion, but if you’re picking just one out for criticism, it could just be plain old bigotry.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Apparently, you have to choose to be in opposition to anti-Semitism or Islamophobia. You can't possibly think they both suck. That would be un-Australian. You pick a team and barrack for them. It's the Aussie way.

No, it is not.

 

[Carringbush2010]

That’s just it though. Everyone picks a side. Who hasn’t picked a side in the Russia Ukraine war? But I never hear anyone talking about Russian civilians like they need to be exterminated like insects.

No we don't.

Everyone needs to calm the farm on this 'taking sides bs'. This forum and discussion is NOT a reflection of real world society.

Anyone with a modicum of integrity would condemn islamophobia AND anti semitism or any hatred. That would be the overwhelming majority of our society.

If one has a belief that everyone has 'picked a side' because 'tribalism' is an idiot, this is not a football game. Anyone who does buy into the 'tribalism' is a naive and gullible moron.

 

[sr36]

That’s just it though. Everyone picks a side. Who hasn’t picked a side in the Russia Ukraine war? But I never hear anyone talking about Russian civilians like they need to be exterminated like insects.

You've heard some Israeli's and Palestinians talking about each other as though they should be exterminated - if you haven't, you're living under a rock. Are you on an Antisemitic vent as well?.


I assume you're aware that people don't usually go straight from no prejudice to genocide. There's some steps in between. The step you've taken. The path you want to persuade people to be on, is the path of prejudice that leads first to blatant discrimination and then who knows from there. It's been a long and bitter conflict. 75 years of conflict and a very long history preceding it. The holocaust as another example was a culmination of centuries of voices like yours.

You haven't made one single valid argument to support your claim. Too lazy to even read and repeat the reams of critiques bemoaning the impact of Islam, as there are about all religions. Mind made up without any knowledge.

You seem to think that anecdotes about a few Muslims actually says something meaningful about an entire Religion with 2 billion followers. It doesn't. It only says something meaningful about the way you think.

You're a voice of illogical ignorant prejudice. Fortunately, we in the West know enough about Christianity and Western culture to not blame the Christianity embedded in Western culture for having born your voice.

 

[sr36]

No, it is not.

I was being obtuse. You misunderstood.

I was criticising the nationalist voices that are critical of talking about both Antisemitism and Islamophobia together. Even though the same conflict has caused an increase in both and leaders in both of those Australian communities regularly speak out against both of them together. Apparently that's bad according to Dutton and much of the media.