Why not Thornton?

[GordonBlue]

Don't make many threads but I feel compelled to talk about this.

Unlike many people... I don't think we're gonna have an issue with kicking goals this year... I think we have enough option to get an even balance of goal kickers between Forwards and Mids... but ever since Sydney last year I've wonder... Why don't we play Thornton as a forward?

He's a fantastic mark and a beautiful kick... he's not slow and big enough to handle a KPP forward spot. I know he is important to our defence... but should say round 5 or 6, we are averaging 60 points for... and Aussie is fit to play... I think should he play say from round 7-22 as a permanent forward... I'm pretty confident he could kick anywhere between 30-40 goals...

 

[Jeremias]

Because he's one of our best defenders and we'd be weakening our defense significantly if we moved him anywhere else on the ground.

That would be a huge case of robbing Peter to pay Paul. Most definitely not worth it.

 

[GordonBlue]

Because he's one of our best defenders and we'd be weakening our defense significantly if we moved him anywhere else on the ground.

That would be a huge case of robbing Peter to pay Paul. Most definitely not worth it.

What if Paul was dirt poor and Peter has other means of generating Wealth?

 

[mickelboy182]

Thornton is too important in the backline. If we plan on having Waite at CHF we need his experience down back.

 

[parrot]

Thorton will definitely be used as a forward on occasions if we're struggling or to target an opposition defensive weakness. He's learnt a trick or 2 by playing on opposition forwards over the years.

 

[Aphrodite]

Thorton will definitely be used as a forward on occasions if we're struggling or to target an opposition defensive weakness. He's learnt a trick or 2 by playing on opposition forwards over the years.

He played forward in his junior years

 

[Bell Ringer]

He played forward in his junior years

Everyone plays everywhere in their junior years.

 

[Aphrodite]

Everyone plays everywhere in their junior years.

Thornton played forward in his junior years & that is fact.

 

[GordonBlue]

Last year we managed to play pretty well defence wise even with the loss of both Waite and Jamo... Thornton and Bower (with Russell and Aussie) held up pretty well... Should we be in need of an option... then I would love to add the extra unknown in the forward line and expect similar (if not better) result in the defence as late last year with Jamo, Bower, AUssie and Russell back there...

Say our forward structure isn't working in the early round... I don't want Thornton to just occasionally go forward... I actually would like a structure involving T-Bird in the forward line. Like i said in the OP... I don't think we will have a problem... however I feel we have a Plan B which maybe as good a proposition as Plan A.

Thornton's long kicks is the best in the team imo. I'm not sure if that equates to kicking goals... but around the ground is he first rate.

 

[Erko Blue]

He has one of the most beautiful "ball-drops" of any player to drop a sherrin (or Burley, or Faulkner) I have ever seen.

If our back line can hold it's own without him....then so be it.

I just hope we dont need him up forward and he dominate the floating back position.

I thought this thread was going to be calling for him to be VC after I read the title

 

[GordonBlue]

I thought this thread was going to be calling for him to be VC after I read the title

I think the question "Who's gonna kick the goals?" has been echoed a lot more this off season than "Who's gonna be VC?"

But come to think of it... why not T-Bird for VC... he shows tremendous leadership down back... he's one of the longest serving players and players look up to him... I think he'd be the perfect candidate

 

[OldBlueFan]

I can only see it working if it's a "rotate Thornton with Waite" thing. These 2 have the "leave your man to help out a teammate" down pat, they seem to know just how to either get in the hole or be the 3rd man up. I don't think the others have quite perfected that skill yet (Bower is trying though, as shown in the practice match when he left Brown to block Fev's run).

Personally, I think our defence needs another year together to really gel (Russell, Joseph and Armfield were only really added last year) so since they've done OK learning to live without Waite, I reckon he's the guy to play mainly forward and only try the switch if things are desperate.

 

[BlueGibbs2011]

Has been discussed in two posts before about Thornton going fwd.

If they plan on keeping Waite back, then i'd be all for them trialing Thornton in the preseason games up fwd to see what he offers. However, if Waite is meant for the forward line in 2010, then i'd much prefer him helping Bower down back.

But def see your point. A good contested mark, and def one of Carlton's better kicks.

 

[Bell Ringer]

Thornton played forward in his junior years & that is fact.

Considering I played junior footy at the same club you don't need to tell me twice.

My point was that although you might play predominantly 1 position as a junior you invariably get shuffled around a fair bit as well.

Also, when punters point out that player X was a forward/backman/midfielder as a junior they think that this means a player will be a natural at this position at AFL level.
As a rough guess-timate I'd reckon that +75% of an AFL footballer's on-field knowledge is learnt after they are drafted, therefore rendering their ability to kick 10 goals a game in under 15's redundant when you consider they've played fullback since their AFL debut.

 

[Erko Blue]

But come to think of it... why not T-Bird for VC... he shows tremendous leadership down back... he's one of the longest serving players and players look up to him... I think he'd be the perfect candidate

Thats what I was getting at, it just came to mind when I saw his name.
might be a bit too much of a quiet achiever though

 

[HBF]

Thornton, along with Bower and Jamison make up the backbone of our defence, and that's where he should stay. Utilities like Waite and Austin can go forward should we need to re-structure our talls in our forward line, not to mention Kreuzer and Hampson can also push forward.

 

[AlecDuncan]

If he was as comfortable shooting for goal as he is with his field kicking I wouldn't mind seeing him play either end a la Adam Hunter. But he isn't, and at this stage of his career he's not likely to change. He's excellent down back, others will have to do the job up forward.

 

[Bluebear]

Because he's one of our best defenders and we'd be weakening our defense significantly if we moved him anywhere else on the ground.

That would be a huge case of robbing Peter to pay Paul. Most definitely not worth it.

Correct.
Great teams are built on great defences and midfields......and they find ways to kick goals.

T-Bird stays put.

Why, after the two games we have seen are people still worried about our forward line?

We had just as many shots as the Swans and the night was clearly dewy and not good for tall marking forwards (and if Yarran had his boots on straight we would have won by 3 goals)......and we had MORE shots that the Lions at goal and kicked plenty........without Waite and with Setanta underdone..


What's the worry?

 

[Beloved]

Because he does what he does well. Why change that?

 

[gbatman]

We don't play him forward for the same reasons we don't play many differnet individuals on the ball enough. Our coach doesn't back all our players and we don't back ppl like jamison, austin and bower to hold down the defence. Maybe we are right not to back our players but I think it's a weakness in our coaches mentality. But yes it would be a bit of robbing peter to pay paul but not as big as you would think.

The reason I wouldn't send him forward is because with Waite, Henderson and O'hAilpin I don't think we need it, if those guys happen to struggle some time then by all means swing him forward. Perhaps swing Waite back and him forward at times.

 

[Faz 2000]

I think sending Thornton forward is a terrible, terrible idea.

In at least the first 6 years of his 7 year career to date, Thornton has been holding down a key defensive post that's probably above his station. In nobody's opinion is he a #1 defender at any club - look at how important we all agree Jamison is. But he's been there, and done it.

He's been absolutely shelled in a pitiful defence in one of the worst teams of the decade. He's done battle with Lloyd, Brown, Neitz, Hall and a swag of other outstanding forwards. And he's absolutely tried his guts out.

Now, finally, he's able to play "3rd tall" in defence, a role I think he's superbly suited to with his ability to read the play and be third man up, courage to take the overhead mark and neat skills out of the backline, and we want to turn him into a forward?! Whaaaaaaaaaat? He's our most experienced guy back there. He's our backline general. And you want to turn him into a FORWARD?

For the first time in a while, I think our defence looks fine. I think Jamison-Bower-Thornton is a great 1-2-3 combo. Whilst we're discussing our midfield needing to get more accountable and how we're going to generate goals now that Fev's gone, I think the general consensus is the defence looks OK.

So why mess with it?

Here's a 25yo defender who has spent 7 years honing his craft in the AFL. Finally he has the support to do his job well. Let's let him do it!

We don't know how the forward line will pan out, exactly, but I would be trying every possible combination of the below before I would even consider Thornton:

Waite - he's done it before, should be a Riewoldt-Lite HFF/CHF.
Henderson - young, big, top-pedigree, KPF prospect. Umm... this isn't hard, guys.
Setant - has played his best football, IMHO, as third tall forward option. A seriously hard matchup if he's fit and focussed, close to goal.
Hampson - Warnock really cuts this guy's lunch in the ruck, but Hammer has size and pace. He's a long way from being the answer in the forward line... but he's a fair way from being the answer anywhere else, too.
Walker - I don't even know what sort of player Walker is any more, but I hope it's a tremendously athletic HFFer.
Casboult - literally never seen him play. I know he's a rookie. I'd definitely try him before moving Thornton out of the backline.

And that's just the vaguely tall guys.

No to Thornton forward. I'm getting badges made. And bumper stickers.

 

[OldBlueFan]

Hampson - Warnock really cuts this guy's lunch in the ruck, but Hammer has size and pace. He's a long way from being the answer in the forward line... but he's a fair way from being the answer anywhere else, too.

No to Thornton forward. I'm getting badges made. And bumper stickers.

An excellent analysis of the situation Faz, but I must take exception to your Hampson assessment.

Firstly, the guy did a commendable job for most of last year, playing an excellent support role to Kruezer. And this year we haven't even seen him in the ruck in the games that Warnock has played, so on what basis can we say that Warnock "cuts his lunch in the ruck"? At the very least he has demonstrated a much better ruck leap than Warnock in the games that I've seen.

Secondly, we've seen him in the forward line for 1/4 of one game against Sydney (as opposed to say, Henderson, who's got to play there for 2 whole games and Setanta, who's had nearly a season up there).

I agree that he has some work to do to prove that he can be a lead up forward, but you seem to be painting him as though he has no talent at all and almost no place in the side.

For people who think that young, big guys can't improve their decision making and disposal, I reckon you only need to mention 1 name ... Jarrad Waite. I can remember groaning on many occasions early in his career thinking that a guy with his potential had to be more capable than his skills demonstrated at the time. Hell, he was almost as reliable as Wiggins in front of goal! Well, look at how important we all feel he is to the club now.

 

[JuddFevGoal]

I think sending Thornton forward is a terrible, terrible idea.

In at least the first 6 years of his 7 year career to date, Thornton has been holding down a key defensive post that's probably above his station. In nobody's opinion is he a #1 defender at any club - look at how important we all agree Jamison is. But he's been there, and done it.

T-Bird has been good when he's been forward, but I agree in principle that he belongs in the backline for most part. His ability to take an uncontested mark back there is actually kind of astonishing.

For me, he should go forward every now and then when we need a mix up or to rub it in on his opponent.

Speaking of Jamo, I agree, he's awesome. But going by B&F results, the MC rate Bower over him. Nothing against Bower, but I would've thought Jamo had the edge at the moment.

 

[Faz 2000]

An excellent analysis of the situation Faz, but I must take exception to your Hampson assessment.

Re: Hammer... I am thinking from the point of view of guys who have been suggested as forwards, Hammer has probably shown the least/spent the least time there. To be fair, I DID post this whilst drunk, so a few things come off as even more off the cuff than usual .

For Kreuzer, Warnock and Hampson to play in the same side, one of them must be a permanent forward. I've heard nothing to suggest Warnock is that guy, the Kreuzer to CHF idea seems to be running out of juice already, so that leaves Hammer who, as you say, has really only spent a very short amount of time up there.

I think of the three big men, he's the best suited to a forward role, due to his serious turn of speed that the others do not have. Hampson ain't no Kurt Tippett yet, though.

 

[AlecDuncan]

An excellent analysis of the situation Faz, but I must take exception to your Hampson assessment.

I agree - Hampson was even better than Kreuzer at centre bounces last year, and I think it's more likely he'd be a key forward than Special K would, not to mention Thornton.

Bear with me, but I think goal scoring is as much about attitude as it is ability. Hampson comes from a soccer background and is catching up to the pace of AFL quite nicely. We all know the marking and kicking need to improve, but I think they will.

The thing is, in soccer he was a striker:

The striker however varies greatly from the centre-forward. Strikers are more known for their ability to peel off defenders and to run into space via the blind side of the defender and to receive the ball in a good goalscoring position. They are typically fast players with decent ball control and dribbling abilities. A good striker should be able to shoot confidently with both feet, possess great power and accuracy, and have the ability to slot the ball under pressure in breakaway situations.

He's been a forward most of his sporting life, and that's something to build on. He's well used to being up front and taking shots on goal. God knows, he's got the pace and height for a full forward. We need to teach him how to lead and direct players upfield.