Will Labor have another split?

[AsianWithAFro]

I am not saying it will happen shortly but Is it inevitable that the Labor party will once again split. The Labor party is essentially two parties wrapped into one and from my perspective their seems to be a lot of tension from the left and the right. Thoughts?

 

[Contra Mundum]

No chance. What is the "left" in the Labor Party. They are all pragmatic careerists

 

[MightyFighting]

I understand that there's little policy difference between the left and right factions of the ALP at the parliamentry level. It's many just in studemnt politics.

So no.

The Liberal drys and Liberal moderates on the other hand seem more distant than ever.

 

[morgoth]

They have already split, they are called the Greens.

 

[Andre]

They won't split. The problem they have is unlike the Greens people actually pay attention to the major parties policies before deciding to vote for them, so they can't be totally out there.

So they can either try and stay Centre-Left and hope a low primary vote is offset by getting most Greens preferences or shift Left to try and regain some of those votes, but risk losing those close to the Centre to the Coalition.

IMO, the real danger to them is if Optional Preferential voting comes in. Staying Centre-Left they still get Green preferences overwhelmingly, but with OPV if they don't shift further Left they could lose a fair number of those. Then they are damned from the Right or Left whichever way they shift.

OPV is hard to rally against as a concept for the parties that I can see. People still get to choose their first choice, and if they want they can still preference down the list. The 'plague on both your houses' vote where the ALP or Coalition being picked 6th on a ballot instead of 7th becoming part of the 2PP preferred to decide seats when voters want their first preference recognised, but don't want either major to get anything from them goes.

 

[evo]

No chance. What is the "left" in the Labor Party. They are all pragmatic careerists

Parties don't split these days. They just sack the guy in charge of the focus groups!

 

[Caesar]

They have already split, they are called the Greens.

Zing.

 

[AsianWithAFro]

Is it fair to say that Labor and Liberal will continue to pragamatise in the future. From my point fo view there's only one degree of separation between either them

 

[jo172]

No chance. What is the "left" in the Labor Party. They are all pragmatic careerists

This.

 

[Wonaeamirri33]

Zing.

Plenty of good people who used to be amongst the true progressive elements of the ALP, who've given up on that party as it's moved to the right, and are now with the Greens, no question about that.

In many ways, we stand for the kind of values and ideas the ALP used to represent...

 

[The_Reaper]

Plenty of good people who used to be amongst the true progressive elements of the ALP, who've given up on that party as it's moved to the right, and are now with the Greens, no question about that.

In many ways, we stand for the kind of values and ideas the ALP used to represent...

If the greens could isolate the lunatic fringe (Hamilton and that new NSW senator) and move more to the centre, they'd attract a lot more of the ALP vote.

 

[Judge]

Plenty of good people who used to be amongst the true progressive elements of the ALP, who've given up on that party as it's moved to the right, and are now with the Greens, no question about that.

In many ways, we stand for the kind of values and ideas the ALP used to represent...

Actually, that's not quite true, there's still a fair proportion of ****wits
within the ALP, only the biggest zeroes have joined the Greens.

 

[Wonaeamirri33]

If the greens could isolate the lunatic fringe (Hamilton and that new NSW senator)

Agreed about Hamilton, but mate, you don't know enough about our NSW senator, I'd reckon.

For one thing, that malarky about CPA connections is a myth. She was involved in a Marxist group back in the late 60s/early 70s, and her mother was a CPA member at one time back in the distant past, that's it.

Hell, Howes was a Trotskyite up until the mid-90s, when that bastard apparently underwent a rapid political conversion for personal gain. Anna Bligh was involved in a Marxist group in the past as well.

The list of people who've been part of such small militant splinter groups in the past, who are now Labor MPs, is a long list.

And most of them are far from progressive at this point.

Lee Rihannon is well-versed in areas like foreign aid and other social justice matters, and is better when it comes to issues like campaign finance reform, and electoral reform, than anyone I can think of. She's spearheaded the Green push in that regard for years now.

Her work, for instance, on the Electoral Funding Matters Committee in NSW, during her time as a Green member in the NSW Upper House, was of the highest order.

Ditto for her efforts on behalf of the community in the Hunter Valley over the damage caused by the coal industry in that area, and the consequences for living standards and general health there, especially with issues such as cancer clusters and respiratory ailments caused by coal dust.

And she's been a leading campaigner when it comes to cracking down on pokies too...

 

[Caesar]

Ditto for her efforts on behalf of the community in the Hunter Valley over the damage caused by the coal industry in that area, and the consequences for living standards and general health there, especially with issues such as cancer clusters and respiratory ailments caused by coal dust.

Ha. Lee Rhiannon is hated in the Hunter Valley. She's regarded as a meddling hippie who is no friend of miners.

 

[Chief Ten Beers]

They have already split, they are called the Greens.

(Thumbs up for your comment, not the Greens)

 

[Wonaeamirri33]

Ha. Lee Rhiannon is hated in the Hunter Valley.

By who? The coal industry? My arse.

Forget about a grain of salt, I don't reckon even the total salt accumulation of Lake Eyre could cover the slant in that post.

Come on mate, you're better than this.

And by the way, how do you reckon the people in towns like Singleton, Scone, Lithgow, Dunedoo and other parts of the Hunter Valley feel about the ALP and the Liberal Party, who have mainly ignored their demands for action regarding the growing damage to health, life expectancy and living standards in their region?

Residents in the Valley have written to the Health Minister on many occasions requesting that tests be conducted on the health of the region's children. Instead they've been ignored. Been no particular sign that the Liberals care about these people either.

Aside from the massively disproportionate development of cancer clusters, the Hunter Valley has the highest rates of child asthma in NSW, did you know that?

 

[Caesar]

I didn't say they don't get completely shafted by the major parties. And yes, their cancer rates are a disgrace. Yet despite that, and despite Hunter having a complete pillock like Fitzgibbon as their rep, the only votes they picked up this year were the ones they lost to the Climate Change Coaltion in 2007. Their share of the vote there is still a joke, well below the Greens' national average. And it's the same story at State level.

The voters don't forget her attempts to block the Integra, Ashton and Ravensworth mines. The Greens can thank her absurd No New Mines campaign to single-handedly screw the economy of the Upper Hunter for being widely despised in the region.

EDIT: I'm 'better than that'? Try talking to people in the Hunter Valley and stop C&Ping her Rhiannon for Senate promotional material. I used to have clients in the UHV. She's an arseclown who did very little but poison the Greens brand during her time in the NSW legislature. Even Bob Brown doesn't like her. She should have stayed in the Socialist Alliance, or whichever leftist party originally spat her out.

 

[Wonaeamirri33]

Let's leave the barracking and abusive terminology out of this.

And if Rihannon campaigning on these issues has somehow hurt us in NSW, why then have we been consistently around 14-16% in the Newspoll state numbers there since early this year

Seems to me like you're a pretty strong supporter of the coal industry... what about the health & social consequences, or the consequences for the rest of the economy in that area?

You seem to think the population of the Hunter Valley don't care about these things, and are apparently asserting that the vast majority desperately want to see these new mines created regardless of the problems they will cause. Somehow, I very much doubt that.

Those who are raising these issues, and campaigning on behalf of communities in the Valley, to protect their health, along with farming and related industries, should be listened to more, and not just blindly abused.

Did you see the Four Corners program about the severity of the problems I mentioned in my other post - especially in the Singleton area?

What about the findings of the Camberwell Cumulative Impact Review which show that there would be unacceptable health impacts caused by the Integra, Ashton and Ravensworth projects?

And you forgot to mention the successful termination of the Bickham open-cut mining project, which if begun, would've disrupted drainage and polluted the local water supply from the Pages River and Kingdon Ponds Aquifer to thoroughbred horse studs, vineyards and thousands of aces of arable land.

Not to mention stuffing up the water supply to the people of Murrurundi, Blandford, Gundy, Parkville and Scone, who depend on this catchment for clean water.

 

[Caesar]

Seems to me like you're a pretty strong supporter of the coal industry... what about the health & social consequences, or the consequences for the rest of the economy in that area?

You seem to think the population of the Hunter Valley don't care about these things, and somehow desperately want to see these new mines created regardless of the problems they will cause. Somehow, I very much doubt that.

And I certainly don't believe that those who are raising these issues, and campaigning on behalf of communities in the Valley, to protect their health, along with farming and related industries, are somehow "despised" for that.

I'm a supporter of the local community and the local economy. That happens to be coal. Rhiannon likes to pretend that she's saving the community while campaigning to take away their livelihoods. Strangely enough, people don't like that.

She is one of the worst possible cases of someone who's totally out of touch with the community yet thinks she's doing what's best for the little people. She is hated and a major reason why the Upper Hunter does not vote Greens. The Greens' success in NSW is in spite of her, not because of.

What about the findings of the Camberwell Cumulative Impact Review which show that there would be unacceptable health impacts caused by the Integra, Ashton and Ravensworth projects?

lol. ORLY? Sounds like you haven't read the CCIR and you're just C&Ping Rhiannon's website again. Naughty naughty, Wona. Here's a quick summary:

http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-new...ds-no-mining-health-risks-20100713-108py.html

NSW report finds no mining health risks

Independent reports commissioned by the NSW government have dismissed fears mining in the Upper Hunter is creating a health risk to local residents.

Reports into air quality, noise levels and drinking water at Camberwell, near Singleton, were commissioned by the government in response to residents' concerns.

But the reports, released by NSW Planning Minister Tony Kelly on Tuesday, have found the mining industry isn't having a significant impact on the small town.

And you forgot to mention the successful termination of the Bickham open-cut mining project, which if begun, would've disrupted drainage and polluted the local water supply from the Pages River and Kingdon Ponds Aquifer to thouroughbred horse studs, vineyards and thousands of aces of arable land.

Not to mention stuffing up the water supply to the people of Murrurundi, Blandford, Gundy, Parkville and Scone, who depend on this catchment for clean water.

Yawn. The government killed it because of an extremely negative IPAC report and the community being dead against it. Rhiannon had very little to do with it except shouting rather loudly and then claiming all the credit.

 

[Wonaeamirri33]

Sharper response here mate

But seriously though, better to see that you've fleshed things out more substantially here, certain little rhetorical flourishes excepted.

Not that I haven't used similar tactics against others in different arguments around the place, of course

I'm a supporter of the local community and the local economy. That happens to be coal.

Fair enough, I get your position here. Although better made without the potshots at Rihannon - thus far, you've produced nothing in the way of actual substance to support that rhetoric. Which is why I'm dismissive of those comments.

Your perspective on these issues appears diametrically opposed to that of Rihannon and the Greens as a whole, I understand that.

I certainly don't expect that we'll agree on much when it comes to this stuff.

Sounds like you haven't read the CCIR

I have seen it, although I haven't had the time to look through it in particular depth yet. Would suggest that this article, which looks to be based largely on comments from Kelly, is lopsided in its interpretation though.

I definitely don't trust Tony Kelly's conclusions in this regard.

 

[Inferno]

There's more chance that the Greens overtake them as the party of the left, but that certainly isn't going to happen in the foreseeable future. Could happen 20-30 years down the track if things go their way and they moderate their policies to appeal to the centre enough, without sellout out a la Labor.

And no Labor won't split.

 

[Caesar]

The report says that caution needed to be taken with managing further mining development to ensure emissions and noise remained below environmental benchmarks. Rhiannon has interpreted this as a need to block all further mines, despite the community being behind further expansion (some open-cuts like Bickham are a different matter).

Rhiannon is a prime example of why 90% of lobbyists and social activists shouldn't enter parliament. She an old-school hippie of the first class, only interested in creating her own kumbaya utopia and showing complete disregard for the actual needs of her constituents. You seem fairly plugged into the Greens movement - ask around informally and find out what Brown thinks of her off the record.

As far as evidence for my views being shared, I can only cite my own anecdotal experience with UHV residents whose jobs depend directly and indirectly on the coal industry, and the poll results at state and federal level for the region. These are invariably significantly below the Greens' average in terms of both primary vote and swings. This is especially damning when you look at the poor quality of their local members and the utter neglect shown to the region by government, leading to a high degree of disaffection.

And that's not even getting into the disgraceful disregard she showed for the NSW people as a whole when she held onto her MLC job whilst campaigning for the Senate, and abusing the privileges of that office. All this was defying the explicit instructions of the Greens National Executive, may I add.

Trust me Wona, she is no asset to The Greens. She has hurt their brand in NSW, and she will likely be an embarrassment at a federal level for years to come.

 

[Wonaeamirri33]

Fair play to you there, I appreciate your reasoning, and certainly you've got some decent arguments, although obviously I wouldn't be inclined to agree with all of the details of your commentary there, of course - personal perspective always plays a part.

Especially in the first 2 sentences of the second paragraph, where I do think you're overreaching in these sweeping statements about character. Neither of us are in a position to judge with that kind of accuracy one way or the other, I suspect.

I'll look into issues concerning Rihannon more, and you've made a good point about her seeking to retain her MLC post while running for the Senate - after all, others in a similar position, like Xenophon, have resigned from their Upper House post before mounting such a tilt - but I hope you're wrong about the overall picture where she's concerned mate...

 

[Caesar]

Fair play to you. Look, my dislike of the Greens is clear, but I want to emphasise I am not being critical for the sake of being critical here. I have a lot of respect for Ian Cohen and especially John Kaye, who have real credentials as two of the most genuine and plugged-in Green politicians going around. They are THE reason why the NSW Greens are arguably the most mature branch in the country. Talk to Wilkie - from what I hear, they are the reason he got involved with the Greens in the first place.

Rhiannon, on the other hand, is... not. That she finagled her way into the first slot on NSW's Senate ticket - well, I will say no more.

 

[Caesar]

Especially in the first 2 sentences of the second paragraph, where I do think you're overreaching in these sweeping statements about character. Neither of us are in a position to judge with that kind of accuracy one way or the other, I suspect.

The first two sentences of that paragraph are not statements of character - they're first hand observations from a constituent. Me.

We are not WA. But my home town is the biggest coal export port in the world. The mining industry directly or indirectly employs a quarter of a million people - a massive proportion of the state's non-metro population, many in otherwise economically-stagnant areas like the outer Illawarra and Upper Hunter. In fact it is one of the main industries holding up the state's employment rate, with growth of in excess of 10% p.a. in recent years. It supplies 90% of NSW's energy needs, and is by far the biggest single positive contributor to the state's woeful balance of trade.

Rhiannon wants to shut the whole thing down. She has opposed anything and everything to do with the mining sector ever since she stepped into Macquarie Street. There is pursuing your party's values, and then there is total madness.

It is what happens when politicians spend more time winning factional support for their party's PR ticket than actually engaging with the community they're supposed to represent.