Woggabaliri

[Chaz Pendlebury]

Good that you've raised this. I too initially thought that it had to be a piss take, but with references to the ausport, etc, I accepted that it was just one of those quirky things.

But now that you mention that the only source appears to be ausport, then this is indeed intriguing - but could anyone be so stupid as to make up a name with such an obvious inference? Somone on the government payroll?!

Doing a quick google check, and the number of mentions are indeed quite low.

But surely someone well versed in the aboriginal languages in the area would have been able to refute the story by now, afterall, they reckon woggabaliri means simply "to play". You'd think it would be relatively easy to check that.

BSE, indeed I would imagine that linguist in specialising in aboriginal languages would be able to refute or validate it.

To be fair, until now, the game has only existed in documents of the ASC (and more recentlty in NSW Sport 2007) to facilitate the pithy amounts of money it actually provides to facilitate grass roots participation. The sudden rise in the profile of this obscure tradional game will see it receive much greater empirical scrutiny.

And lets keep our moral outrage firmly targeted at the ASC here

The Roar and its contributers are can perfectly legitametly delude themselves to calm the fevered envy at the success of our national game. They can even persecute followers of the game, its a private endeavour and it sets its own standards

The ASC however is funded by commonwealth taxes. It pumps more of this into the elite end of Equestrian and Sailing (comnined) alone than the total it puts into promoting and faciltating participation in the community.

It has now apparently fabricated a number of indigenous games that, "played in sequence" remarkably resemble a junior soccer clinic!

 

[arrowman]

Seems there are a great number of obscure ball sports invented by Aboriginals.

http://www.ausport.gov.au/participa...es_and_activities/individual_games/ball_games

Oh. My. God.

Your tax dollars at work.

(insert "crying from frustration" emoticon here)

 

[greennick]

It sounds a lot like they have ripped off some of the AFL origin stories, with Marngrook being the game played by the locals in these stories (note, these origins are disputed by some AFL historians, not widely accepted with no evidence as the soccer camp seems to have).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marn_Grook

 

[Pie eyed]

They all seem to come from a single book by Dr Kevin Edwards at QUT.

Might be worth writing to him if you're interested, or heading down to the NLA for some research.

No such staff member at QUT.
All these claims all lead to dead ends or the ASC documents.
I can't find anything to support the claims whatsoever and usually have no problems finding research to back most claims, or lack there of.

My curiosity is piqued now. I'll ring the ASC tomorrow and find out the actual source of all this "newly discovered" sporting history.

 

[greennick]

Just looking at the 2 articles on Mangrook and "Woggabaliri" it seems much of Woggabiliri has been ripped from the Mangrook article written prior. They both have this photo:

With the same captions:

Australian Aboriginal domestic scene depicting traditional recreation, including one child kicking the "ball", with the object and caption being to "never let the ball hit the ground". (From William Blandowski's Australien in 142 Photographischen Abbildungen, 1857, (Haddon Library, Faculty of Archaeology and Anthropology, Cambridge)

Australian Aboriginal domestic scene depicting traditional recreation, including one child kicking the "ball", with the object and caption being to "never let the ball hit the ground". (From William Blandowski's Australien in 142 Photographischen Abbildungen, 1857, (Haddon Library, Faculty of Archaeology and Anthropology, Cambridge)

The description of the ball in the OP:

Woggabaliri is a non-competitive game played with a ball made of Bulrush roots wrapped in possum fur

In the Mangrook wiki written years before:

The ball is made out of typha roots (roots of the bulrush).....

and

One makes a ball of possum skin

Interesting they appear to have combined the two eyewitness accounts and run with it.

Do they have any documented eyewitness accounts of this woggabaliri ball??? There are heaps of Marngrook, have they just stolen that and are having a laugh?? Do they teach Marngrook in school or just this claimed indigenous version of hacky sack?

 

[Puddy]

Since when has Soccer been Australian Football?

 

[Barkly St End]

Just looking at the 2 articles on Mangrook and "Woggabaliri" it seems much of Woggabiliri has been ripped from the Mangrook article written prior. They both have this photo:

With the same captions:




The description of the ball in the OP:


In the Mangrook wiki written years before:

and


Interesting they appear to have combined the two eyewitness accounts and run with it.

Do they have any documented eyewitness accounts of this woggabaliri ball??? There are heaps of Marngrook, have they just stolen that and are having a laugh?? Do they teach Marngrook in school or just this claimed indigenous version of hacky sack?

Good pick up.

Well Chaz, looks like you've stumbled on the biggest fraudulent claim since the discovery of the Hitler diaries 30 years ago.

Or, more than likely, it's a piss-take that has gone horribly wrong, grown legs and ran further then the inventor ever could have imagined.

But it does underscore the dirty games that ausport is involved in to try and wrangle more taxpayer dollars for its sports programs.

Also, the soccer fraternity as a whole has just reached an all time low in its attempt to claim a greater degree of cultural significance in this country.

 

[Clay Davis]

No such staff member at QUT.
All these claims all lead to dead ends or the ASC documents.
I can't find anything to support the claims whatsoever and usually have no problems finding research to back most claims, or lack there of.

My curiosity is piqued now. I'll ring the ASC tomorrow and find out the actual source of all this "newly discovered" sporting history.

Ken Edwards, sorry.

 

[Chaz Pendlebury]

I reckon everyone here should make a complaint today, or ask a question of, the ASC today.

It will be interesting to see if any journo has the guts to persue this story, given the proximetry to the bid announcement and the guarantee that they will be outed and harangued as an anti-soccer zealot.

In the UK, packed full of anti soccer zealots as it may be, a documentary is apparently to be aired a week before the WC hosts for 18/22 are decided, which investigates the corruption within FIFA.

Anyway, I wonder how long the today the picture of idigenous kids participating in a common drill of dribbling a soccer ball around a row of cones, with the caption "Children playing a traditional Indigenous game" remains on their website

http://www.ausport.gov.au/participating/indigenous/resources/games_and_activities/disclaimer

 

[Clay Davis]

The ASC is probably one of the worst examples of the public service. They are solely focussed on sports that deliver them junkets overseas. That means that sports that have huge popularity within Aus, and lesser popularity globally, have almost no attention from that organisation.

Soccer and the Olympics are favourites because they take the junket seekers worldwide.

The whole large sporting event industry is a sham - it exists purely to give bureaucrats and politicians cushy roles that see them jetset around the world. It's then sold to the public as economically beneficial to them.

 

[Barkly St End]

The ASC is probably one of the worst examples of the public service. They are solely focussed on sports that deliver them junkets overseas. That means that sports that have huge popularity within Aus, and lesser popularity globally, have almost no attention from that organisation.

Soccer and the Olympics are favourites because they take the junket seekers worldwide.

The whole large sporting event industry is a sham - it exists purely to give bureaucrats and politicians cushy roles that see them jetset around the world. It's then sold to the public as economically beneficial to them.

Yep - absolutely spot on - snouts in the trough for the administrators, and photo ops for the politicians - a waste of hundreds of millions of dollars per annum in taxpayer money.

 

[Hawkers]

Well I got my hands on Ken Edwards' book, Choopadoo : Games from the Dreamtime.
I must say I am throughly underwhelmed.

First up it has no extensive bibliography but it lists the following as forming some part of his research

Bush Toys, Claudia Haagen (1994)

Reports of the Cambridge Anthropological Expedition to Torres Straits 4: Arts and Crafts, A.C Haddon (1912)

Sport and Play amidst the Aborigines of the Northern Territory, William E Harney (1952)

Sport and Play in Aboriginal Culture then and now, Ian Robertson (1975)

Sports and Amusements of the Northern Queensland Aboriginals, Walter E Roth

Games and Pastimes of the Australian Aboriginal, Michael A Salter (1967).

He states in the foreward of the book that there are very few descriptions of games and sports by indigenous people, mostly all records are settlers, officials explorers etc.

I also noticed that the format of the book, the way the games are laid out seems to have been copied by the ASC - see here for reference

http://www.ausport.gov.au/participa...es_and_activities/individual_games/ball_games

Open up any PDF and it appears and reads like the book

Also in the book there is no mention of Marn-grook - make of that what you will

 

[Chaz Pendlebury]

The ASC is probably one of the worst examples of the public service. They are solely focussed on sports that deliver them junkets overseas. That means that sports that have huge popularity within Aus, and lesser popularity globally, have almost no attention from that organisation.

Soccer and the Olympics are favourites because they take the junket seekers worldwide.

The whole large sporting event industry is a sham - it exists purely to give bureaucrats and politicians cushy roles that see them jetset around the world. It's then sold to the public as economically beneficial to them.

I think that is unfair.

They sincerely believe that international sporting success is uber-important and that the Australian football is an impediment to this, which leads to the perverse situation where they have spent next to nothing on participation and bemoan their greatest Natioanl Sports Organisation spending 10's of millions of dollars on grass roots participation.

Also, they are, in a way, just reflecting the insecure jingoism of the populace.

I'm sure there are some "Clay Davis's" seeking junkets etc but most of these people actually beleive in their mission. Some of them with such neurotic certainy apparently that they would fabricate aboriginal history to trick aboriginal kids into playing soccer

 

[Checker Hughes]

What an insult many of these posts are.No one is having a go in any way at Aussie Rules.Rejoice in Aussie Rules great history instead of looking to tear everything down all the time

 

[Pie eyed]

What an insult many of these posts are.No one is having a go in any way at Aussie Rules.Rejoice in Aussie Rules great history instead of looking to tear everything down all the time

I am waiting for phone call for the woman who heads the indigenous sports department of the ASC, and more importantly will have the background on the various sports listed and publications which support the ASC assumptions.

I don't see anything insulting about checking the facts of any claim.

 

[greennick]

What an insult many of these posts are.No one is having a go in any way at Aussie Rules.Rejoice in Aussie Rules great history instead of looking to tear everything down all the time

I don't get it?? How is checking the facts at all inappropriate? As has been mentioned in this thread, the association between Marngrook and Aussie Rules is questioned by most historians, we don't really try and claim too much of that. The soccer fraternity has jumped all over this Woggabaliri thing, with even less evidence. We're just trying to see the other side of the story...

 

[tahitian]

Go to http://www.ausport.gov.au/participating/indigenous/resources/games_and_activities/full_resource
and look at the pdf "Games suitable for school years 10-12 and post-school age".

You'll find Marngrook, Woggabaliri (a kind of keepy-uppy), purlja (keepy-offy?), millim baeyeetch and tjapu tjapu all of which are variations on kicking games.

China has a keepy-uppy as well. It's played with an object that is made from a small piece of wood, the diameter of a 50 cent piece about 1 cm thick, with a long feather, about 15 cm.

I'm guessing keepy-uppy has been invented a zillion times.

 

[Barkly St End]

This National Library site is an excellent research tool, that allows you to go through archived newspapers, magazines, journals, letters, etc from the day dot:

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper

I could find no reference to woggabaliri in any newspapers, magazines, journals or letters, but I did find a website reference, unsurprisingly, the ones we've already seen.

One new website reference was this one:
http://pandora.nla.gov.au/pan/80721/20080125-0134/www.thuringowa.qld.gov.au/resources/1862.pdf

A report on indigenous affairs in the City of Thuringowa in Queensland. They mention traditional sports, but their reference is the ASC again! (woggabaliri is mentioned in a list of traditional sports that have clearly been taken off that ausport site)

Wasn't woggabaliri from somewhere in central NSW (quite far from Northern Queensland)

 

[SwampCreature]

I'm guessing keepy-uppy has been invented a zillion times.

Yes but how many times has it first appeared in the last 3 to 4 years, and been jumped on and run with by organisations desperate to use it as a marketing tool.

Can we at least get a "I'll admit, this all looks a bit suspicious" out of some a soccer lover?

I mean, "Wog-a-ball-ri", FFS

 

[Hawkers]

Wasn't woggabaliri from somewhere in central NSW (quite far from Northern Queensland)

According to Ken's book

'The Bogan and Lachlan River area children of New South Wales....'

doesn't mention any other parts of the country

 

[Barkly St End]

Woggabaliri from the Bogan River.

At least this might be something that can bring all Australians together.

 

[Chaz Pendlebury]

What an insult many of these posts are.No one is having a go in any way at Aussie Rules.Rejoice in Aussie Rules great history instead of looking to tear everything down all the time

God know's why I'm responding to you but here goes.

The ASC, which has appreantly provided feedback to the AFL that it sees it as its competitor rather than its greatest asset, appears to have fabricated aboriginal history to trick kids into playing soccer.

Scandalous if true.

 

[ian 13]

your right chaz -- this is a spoof but it accidentally spills the beans on this conspiracy

http://vulgar.com.au/libero/001/200years.html

 

[TheRevolution]

The reality is no one has concrete proof for either Marngrook or Woggabaliri

 

[Chaz Pendlebury]

The reality is no one has concrete proof for either Marngrook or Woggabaliri

Wow, here come the nutters!

Noone I have heard as contested the existence of Marn Grook and related games in tribes across Victoria.

What has been contested is that it was at all significant in the formation of Australian football.

What is undoubtable, from some accounts of observers, is the game has striking similarities to what our greatest cultural triumph, Australian football, evolved in to!

Woggabaliri, until we are informed differently, appears to have been fabricated by the ASC, or one Dr Kevin Edwards, to trick aboriginals into thinking their forefathers played some game similar to soccer. The FFA have apparently used it to trick Corrupt Europeans et al into giving us the world cup!

The incredible gullibility of the soccer nutters who have written articles in the Daily Tele, set up Wiki pages etc in the last week has, ironically, brought this apparent fraud out in the open

The ASC using taxpayer dollars (including us Victards) in this way is scandalous.