Wood vs Bryan?

[DoubleO7]

He would know how to hold his own, but no he will never be a Charman type of player

As long as it is good enough at AFL level then I see nothing to worry about.

I just needed confirmation as I don't follow Keefe's career.

 

[well left]

For a few reasons. Firstly that Hille has a much bigger frame and body and as such is different in style to a Wood. Jolly from at least what I saw over the last couple of years (pretty much when he pushed Evirett out) went from an average ruck who could win a tap to a very very good ruckmen. He lifted in his work rate, physicality and intensity (again at least from what I saw) and as a result was a very very good ruckmen as opposed to an average 2nd stringer in Spiders shadow.

Jolly is a pretty good comparison. Did not really make much of an impression in his first few years at Melbourne but has improved each year at the Swans to become a good ruckman IMO.

WHAT?!?

It was over the course of the year we deceided to tarde for a ruck, if it was the prelim, we would of taken King as well and delisted bryan and richards and probably traded Fraser because he is always injured. You see why making a rash decision is stupid?

Pretty sure we had one of them in Richards already

I can deal with him not being aggressive just as long as he isn't soft.

Yeah me too. I'd be more than happy for Keeffe to develop along the lines of a Dean Cox and not a Charman.

 

[MarkT]

Getting Chris Bryan wasnt a mistake, he cost us nothing but one spot on the list.

Nothing? Maybe. Depends what we might have done in the last 2 years with a quality ruckman or perhaps in the 2007 PF with just a decent one that the coach had enough faith in to not have Richards getting smacked by Ottens for so much of the game.

More to the point though, this theory of “nothing lost” is the most dangerously flawed list management theory you can have. A list spot is very important and the makeup of the squad likewise. McKee didn’t just cost us Pavlich or Haselby his place on the list reduced the viable ruck options against Brisbane to none and we lost twice. Maybe the result could have been different and maybe not. You can never know. What we do know is what we did and what we had fell short. What we also know is that this has been the case for half a century. I find it staggering how people still claim these things cost us little or nothing. These list management decisions decide whether you win flags. Maybe not every single one in isolation but collectively or at least in clusters they do.

The problem with all of this has been Cameron Wood, we gave away a late 1st round draft pick (which are worth their weight in gold), for a player that Leigh Matthews himself had said didnt have the commitment to become a top level player.

I wouldn’t call Travis Johnston gold and I haven’t written off Wood by any stretch. I don’t have a problem with the trade even if he doesn’t make it. I can see why they went for him. Ditto drafting Richards. Byan (and McKee) on the other are entirely different.

At them moment, Wood is a liability, especially in a 22 man squad

If you don’t rate the work of a tap ruckman then perhaps he is. What do you think of Keating? Next time Wood replaces Fraser take note of the difference in where the ball lands and the clearance rate and quality.

I am just putting all my stocks in Lachlan Keefe, who at 204cm has shown more grit and determination in 2 VFL practice matches then Wood has shown in all his time at the pies, and will come of age during our premiership window, which starts this year hopefully.

I think the operative word is faith. The Catholics have been living off it for centuries.

 

[MarkT]

Agree 100% with that and Even MM said it was a Mistake

He has? I haven’t seen/heard that and if it is true then credit to MM where I didn’t think it would be due. I’ll take convincing though.

 

[Optimax]

He has? I haven’t seen/heard that and if it is true then credit to MM where I didn’t think it would be due. I’ll take convincing though.

Has never been said Mark.

I still dont quite follow your we should of kept CC line of thinking.

he would never have become half the player he is now (not that i rate him all that highly now) unless he was delisted. Cam was often injured with us, showed up to every Preseason over weight, came back from every injury lay off overweight, is a bit of a head case, has some ability but no actual football brain (him at CHF this year will be LOL worthy).

Im not saying Bryan is heaps better, but at least when we got him we had less head case off field issues or injury woes

 

[MarkT]

and Mark Cloke is exactly the same height and weight as Bryan, with shoulders made of glass. How can you honestly say that Bryan is short and slow and then say we should of kept Cloke?

Cloke is better at everything and in any position. He’s not the answer to the ruck but he’s a better backup than Bryan as a ruck or a forward by a long shot. Cloke can play footy. Bryan can’t – least not at AFL level with any remote consistency. He take a week tio get from ball in hand to brain and plan of action and to then kick the thing. That smother in the PF summed it up perfectly. You could see it unfold in slow motion. I rate Cameron Cloke as footballer and I don’t rate Bryan. Maybe I’m wrong of course but that’s my view based on what I’ve seen of both.

Anyway, this thread is not about Cloke so my apologies for dragging it that way.

Back to the topic. Wood might be a quality tap ruckman. Bryan won’t be on the list in 12 months or at the outside 24 (IMO).

 

[Optimax]

Cloke is better at everything and in any position. He’s not the answer to the ruck but he’s a better backup than Bryan as a ruck or a forward by a long shot. Cloke can play footy. Bryan can’t – least not at AFL level with any remote consistency. He take a week tio get from ball in hand to brain and plan of action and to then kick the thing. That smother in the PF summed it up perfectly. You could see it unfold in slow motion. I rate Cameron Cloke as footballer and I don’t rate Bryan. Maybe I’m wrong of course but that’s my view based on what I’ve seen of both.

Anyway, this thread is not about Cloke so my apologies for dragging it that way.

Back to the topic. Wood might be a quality tap ruckman. Bryan won’t be on the list in 12 months or at the outside 24 (IMO).

Just finally on Cloke and then ill stop too.

He was a nothing player with us, he often called for the ball as a long option and then provided no contest for the ball (god that shit me), and he barely looked fitter then half the crowd most of the time. For those reasons and a few others im glad we dumped him.


I have hopes for wood, someone said in another forum possibly (JtP/Figgy) he needs to exorcise the spirit of stretch i hope he does soon i really do

 

[MarkT]

Has I still dont quite follow your we should of kept CC line of thinking.

he would never have become half the player he is now (not that i rate him all that highly now) unless he was delisted. Cam was often injured with us, showed up to every Preseason over weight, came back from every injury lay off overweight, is a bit of a head case, has some ability but no actual football brain (him at CHF this year will be LOL worthy).

Im not saying Bryan is heaps better, but at least when we got him we had less head case off field issues or injury woes

Dane Swan wasn’t half the player he is now until he was given the last chance. Footy is full of stories like that, Maybe he wouldn’t have pulled his finger out but Bryan was considered lazy at Carlton as well and he just isn’t good enough. I like the fact he will throw his body in but so will Cloke. I’m not saying Coke would have been the messiah and I did say we should also have taken another tall ruckman BTW.

And Bryan couldn’t get a game for Carlton. If it was Freo then maybe you could understand it….

 

[Optimax]

Dane Swan wasn’t half the player he is now until he was given the last chance. Footy is full of stories like that, Maybe he wouldn’t have pulled his finger out but Bryan was considered lazy at Carlton as well and he just isn’t good enough. I like the fact he will throw his body in but so will Cloke. I’m not saying Coke would have been the messiah and I did say we should also have taken another tall ruckman BTW.

And Bryan couldn’t get a game for Carlton. If it was Freo then maybe you could understand it….

Yeah your right, there were other issues with Bryan at carlton he was in ripper for for the bullants late in 06 didnt play seniors though.

 

[Ickirus]

One of the aspects when evaluating players and certain games is to take into account their amount of game time, this is even more relevant when evaluating the rucks.

While Bryan was better than Wood against the Bombers, the simple fact is he should have been, as he was given the no.1 ruck role and spent far more time on ground than Wood. Wood's game against Richmond saw him given very minimal gametime and competed in a very low amount of centre bounces, contrasting with the WCE game where he was given more opportunity.

Wood's tapwork is very good, however he definately needs to up the intensity. Bryans biggest weakness is his decision making and height. His long bombing straight to the opposition hurts the team far more than what Wood does in his bad games.

We already have a ruck who can win the ball around the ground in Fraser, for the 2nd ruck spot I'd rather have Wood as he can win us the tap and not hurt the team as bad as Bryan can.

 

[Audacious]

Geez Jack Grimes is looking good right now....

lol. Just what i was thinking reading this thread. Was looking to downgrade petrie to bryan so i didnt have to worry about Grimes playing the first 10 games of the season.

Now Grimes looks alright

 

[Dave The Man]

lol. Just what i was thinking reading this thread. Was looking to downgrade petrie to bryan so i didnt have to worry about Grimes playing the first 10 games of the season.

Now Grimes looks alright

I heard Grimes has Injured his back

 

[Old Spice]

Stepping outside the Cloke / Bryan trade for a minute, there were opportunities for us to pick up other rucks in recent years.

I thought we should have picked up Moran in 06 (?) when North were offloading him. They had a surfeit of rucks with Hale and Petrie. The few games I saw him in I thought he looked very nice, certainly a servicable 2nd ruck.

Josh has really been flying solo over the last decade, no wonder he looks tired! Keeffe is really the great hope in the next few years, but until then I place Bryan ahead of Wood in terms of value around the ground.

 

[Dave The Man]

Stepping outside the Cloke / Bryan trade for a minute, there were opportunities for us to pick up other rucks in recent years.

I thought we should have picked up Moran in 06 (?) when North were offloading him. They had a surfeit of rucks with Hale and Petrie. The few games I saw him in I thought he looked very nice, certainly a servicable 2nd ruck.

Josh has really been flying solo over the last decade, no wonder he looks tired! Keeffe is really the great hope in the next few years, but until then I place Bryan ahead of Wood in terms of value around the ground.

We De-Listed Cloke and That draft we where looking at 2 Matutre Ruckman in the PSD in Bryan and Keating.

I agree in 06 we did get Wood but I am suprised we did not look at another Big Body Ruckman in Moran,Meesen or even Steven King who we could of got for Nothing

 

[Old Spice]

It's fair to say I think that we messed up in terms of bagging some good ruckmen. I can understand not landing key mids out of contract - Stevens thanks to Williams, Judd due to too heavy a price tag, Cousins due to significant risks - but not bagging a Keating or Moran who would have cost little was a mistake.

 

[Dave The Man]

It's fair to say I think that we messed up in terms of bagging some good ruckmen. I can understand not landing key mids out of contract - Stevens thanks to Williams, Judd due to too heavy a price tag, Cousins due to significant risks - but not bagging a Keating or Moran who would have cost little was a mistake.

Even not getting King when Saints got him and C Cardner for pick 92?

 

[Audacious]

I heard Grimes has Injured his back

cheers mate. Just read the news on the dees forum. So Bryan is in front possie eh?

 

[rose jam]

Bryan is a better number 2 ruckman because he can play some good minutes with limited time. But Wood would be a better number 1 ruckman because his tap work and ability to mark in the whole would over a longer period be more effective then Bryan's cumulative brain fades (think Rhyce Shaw, only taller).
So as long as the AFL set-up is one main ruckman (josh) and and number ruckman, Bryan gets the nod. If Josh is out, Wood to get more game time than Bryan.

 

[Old Spice]

The thing with Wood is that we didn't pick him up as an 18 year old, but as a 21 year old who had a three year apprenticeship at Brisbane. You don't start your apprenticeship as a ruckman all over again simply because you've gone to another club.

The man has to the end of 2010 to show some form or he will be out the door. - although Bryan and Wood might jam the doorway. I hate to think we wasted that no.14 pick, but it's better to face facts than to flog a dead horse.

 

[the_fresh]

But Fraser has had 10 plus years!

 

[Old Spice]

True La Fresh, but Fraser has actually displayed some capacity.

By the way, I heard Collingwood just won the flag. Sorry, but you always remind me of old times.

 

[shawthing09]

Terrible comparison Fraser has had 10 years? Fraser at the same stage of his career was streets ahead of where Wood is. They are different types of players though. Fraser's around the ground ability was always going to translate well. Guys without that ability need to develop their body more.

Something that I am torn about in the Wood v Bryan debate is how much we can take into account what is best for Wood's development and what that actually is. Is it better for him to be gifted games and given a chance to get up to the tempo. His hardly been straight in and out even at Brisbane in 07 he had a run of 5-6 games in a row IIRC. Or does he need to be pushed, is there something that needs to click with him that is more likely to be driven by being out of the ones? Either way is it right to make selections in a situation like this based on development (personally I think because it is so line ball between Bryan and Wood anyway that would be a major influencing factor in my decision)

 

[The Average Tourist]

After recovering from the night grand final one thing hit me.

For Collingwood to challenge this year we need to have a number 1 ruckman. Bryan tries hard and is a fair back up but unfortunately we need Wood to be the number 1 ruckman. The same as we needed Steve McKee to be and Guy Richards but it never did and I have this very unfortunate feeling deep in the pit of my guts that Wood can never be a number 1 ruckman and Bryan just is not tall enough.

Every time Bryan plays it is a compromise because he can kick a long way he is hard at the Ball but he is not an AFL ruckman. But we do need a number 1 ruckman to allow Josh to play forward, play around the ground, kick goals, provide an avenue out of defence, take pack marks (remember them) etc.

Actually I reckon Josh is the best Number 2 Ruckman in the competition.

For us to be good this year Wood has to be great and unfortunately I cannot see that happen.

 

[Dave The Man]

After recovering from the night grand final one thing hit me.

For Collingwood to challenge this year we need to have a number 1 ruckman. Bryan tries hard and is a fair back up but unfortunately we need Wood to be the number 1 ruckman. The same as we needed Steve McKee to be and Guy Richards but it never did and I have this very unfortunate feeling deep in the pit of my guts that Wood can never be a number 1 ruckman and Bryan just is not tall enough.

Every time Bryan plays it is a compromise because he can kick a long way he is hard at the Ball but he is not an AFL ruckman. But we do need a number 1 ruckman to allow Josh to play forward, play around the ground, kick goals, provide an avenue out of defence, take pack marks (remember them) etc.

Actually I reckon Josh is the best Number 2 Ruckman in the competition.

For us to be good this year Wood has to be great and unfortunately I cannot see that happen.

True is a Number 1 type ruckman not a Back-Up but I doubt he will become that this season

 

[mattys123]

Actually I reckon Josh is the best Number 2 Ruckman in the competition.

Agree with you, as Josh showed in the Hall of Fame match when he was No.2. ruck to Mcintosh I think.