Enough is Enough

[Spanish_Fly]

Define prematurely.... TW didn't see out his contract, it was announced Frawley wasn't continuing about halfway through his last year. Giesch got sacked after not that many games when ironically it was the fans who almost demanded he be appointed after 5 games at the end of 97.... when he was caretaker coach after ummm Walls got sacked.

Northey was the only one who left of his own accord, due to the fact we wouldn't give him an increase after he got us to the finals for the first time in 13 years.... KB, etc etc etc

Sorry at RFC we've seen the answer to the question 'should we sack the coach' over and over again. What happens after we sack the coach? The players get 3 years of 'free time' as we rebuild (again) before slight improvement, a finals appearance (maybe) and then we have a poor season, sack the coach and start all over gain. The evidence at RFC is there for all to see. No-one has seen what happens if you stick to the plan, make players accountable (and coaches can keep coaching for the future, playing the right kids and not coaching for the careers). I want to see DH play Lennon, Helbig, Batch, Arnot, maybe even Elton and McBean to see what they have.... not coach for meaningless wins in 2014 to try and save his job. That will achieve nothing for nobody.

Now, if we were to have another season like this next season, I would move to reconsider but lets see what the footy dept, coaches and players and also the board have learned from the first season since 2009 where we have gone backwards.... Name the last coach to get us improvement over 4 consecutive seasons before DH?

By prematurely I mean before time, before they were given adequate time to show if they could succeed. Walls was probably the last, that was about 17 years ago.

I can understand your point about sticking out for at least 1 more year but what then, what's an acceptable outcome, improvement from this year, or improvement from where we should have been this year. Odds are we are probably stuck in no mans land next year with a mid table finish, better than this year but not where any of us, or the club, thought we would be when we started this year.

IMO, and from my perspective, I have seen enough to be very confident we will never reach the heights we should be striving for under DH, given that no point treading water. The clubs stated aim was 3 flags I believe by 2020. To do this sometimes you have to grow a set and make ruthless decisions.

 

[partycorolla]

I agree to some degree with your point here, problem is that its not just an isolated 20 minutes here and there throughout the season that's the issue. The odd game, the odd quarter can be blamed on the players. The whole season is without doubt on the coach.

Couldn't disagree more.... the fact that they can do it sometimes shows that the gameplan works when players work hard..... but they can't do it for long enough. That's on the players.... They can blame lack of fitness but they think they are fit enough.... quoted by Maric. Therefore it's a mental thing or a belief thing. Maybe some of the players don't trust their teammates will always do the right thing.... Wouldn't surprise me, I see a bunch of them not work hard enough or take selfish options all the time.

The fact that they can do it means the plan is ok. If they couldn't ever do it then it would be the coach.... but right now it's all about the application (or in this case, the lack of it). Need to turn over the players until we are left with the ones that can do it (my guess is we need another 10 at least on our list that can contribute).

 

[partycorolla]

By prematurely I mean before time, before they were given adequate time to show if they could succeed. Walls was probably the last, that was about 17 years ago.

I can understand your point about sticking out for at least 1 more year but what then, what's an acceptable outcome, improvement from this year, or improvement from where we should have been this year. Odds are we are probably stuck in no mans land next year with a mid table finish, better than this year but not where any of us, or the club, thought we would be when we started this year.

IMO, and from my perspective, I have seen enough to be very confident we will never reach the heights we should be striving for under DH, given that no point treading water. The clubs stated aim was 3 flags I believe by 2020. To do this sometimes you have to grow a set and make ruthless decisions.

Well the improvement depends on circumstances. Best available playing list for most of the season with the favourable draw we will have (we must get one given where we will finish), then finals is the minimum. If we don't bounce back hard, then yeah I'm with you, the coach probably needs to be replaced. If we had a year with minimal improvement.... say we went from 6-7 wins up to 10-11 with a decent run of injuries.... yeah not good enough.

Don't get to caught up in club stated aims. There were comments made after we made finals in 01, we saw how that worked out, there was the 5 year plan in 2004 when we signed TW, we saw how that worked out, there were comments and plans made when we signed DH, after 4 years of improvement and 1 final, we have taken a big jump backwards.... I don't give a s**t about the flag as a goal, everybody wants that, I care about the process and the culture. Get that right and the flags will come....

We've grown a set and made ruthless decisions time after time after time.... In this case the more ruthless decision would be to actually put it on the players and tell them they have 11 games to play for their careers (barring a few) and they need to meet certain standards or they'll be delisted/traded ASAP (contracts obviously a sticking point).... For once at Tigerland, I'd like to see the players cop the flak before the coach....

 

[Spanish_Fly]

Well the improvement depends on circumstances. Best available playing list for most of the season with the favourable draw we will have (we must get one given where we will finish), then finals is the minimum. If we don't bounce back hard, then yeah I'm with you, the coach probably needs to be replaced. If we had a year with minimal improvement.... say we went from 6-7 wins up to 10-11 with a decent run of injuries.... yeah not good enough.

Don't get to caught up in club stated aims. There were comments made after we made finals in 01, we saw how that worked out, there was the 5 year plan in 2004 when we signed TW, we saw how that worked out, there were comments and plans made when we signed DH, after 4 years of improvement and 1 final, we have taken a big jump backwards.... I don't give a s**t about the flag as a goal, everybody wants that, I care about the process and the culture. Get that right and the flags will come....

We've grown a set and made ruthless decisions time after time after time.... In this case the more ruthless decision would be to actually put it on the players and tell them they have 11 games to play for their careers (barring a few) and they need to meet certain standards or they'll be delisted/traded ASAP (contracts obviously a sticking point).... For once at Tigerland, I'd like to see the players cop the flak before the coach....

The coach has had 5 years to drill those standards into the players and it hasn't happened. Can't see how another year will make any difference.

 

[Spanish_Fly]

Couldn't disagree more.... the fact that they can do it sometimes shows that the gameplan works when players work hard..... but they can't do it for long enough. That's on the players.... They can blame lack of fitness but they think they are fit enough.... quoted by Maric. Therefore it's a mental thing or a belief thing. Maybe some of the players don't trust their teammates will always do the right thing.... Wouldn't surprise me, I see a bunch of them not work hard enough or take selfish options all the time.

The fact that they can do it means the plan is ok. If they couldn't ever do it then it would be the coach.... but right now it's all about the application (or in this case, the lack of it). Need to turn over the players until we are left with the ones that can do it (my guess is we need another 10 at least on our list that can contribute).

Well we will have to agree to disagree here, long term application is without question, IMO, the responsibility of the coach. All players and/or teams have flat spots throughout seasons, but overall it's up to the coach to have the players motivated, fit, organised and confident in each other and the game plan.

 

[TigerAndy]

I heard on the radio that the attendance was low, and there werent many Richmond fans at the game. I am kinda of glad the fans stayed away, why should we go if the players aren't going to bother and play 4 quarters of football.

If I want to be gang raped and have someone stick hot coals in my eyes I will do that in the comfort of my own home thank you

 

[TigerAndy]

It's not an assumption, but I believe that's to be the case.

No disrespect but how is that any different to me "believing" the opposite to that. It is just 2 opinions unless you have something concrete to back it up

 

[TigerImposter]

The players s**t me.
Too many inconsistent soft utensils on the list.
The way some blokes played out of character in the first half and then reverted back to normal was damning and if I was Hardwick I'd punch them in the mouth.

Yeah DH and recruiters pick these Soft utensils to play for us

 

[TigerAndy]

It's not an assumption, but I believe that's to be the case.

Never mind......I have read the rest of the posts now. No need to repeat

 

[xtatik222k]

This was such a disappointing game for you guys. It only adds to an incredibly disappointing season. It really breaks my heart to see Richmond floundering so badly. My grandfather played for Richmond. The club has spawned some absolute champions and the legacy of the Tigers is legendary. The supporters are some of the most passionate, loyal and decent fans in the league. Dimma knows this. You can see the angst on the poor bastard's face every time his team dishes up a performance like this. I don't know what the answer is - I don't even know what the real problems are. But the Richmond guernsey deserves far better than what this current playing group are giving it.

 

[TigerAndy]

The fact that the board decided not to replace Leppa and Campo makes it easier financially to replace Hardwick with a Coach that is up to the task, it's beyond match days now anyway , we've been losing at the selection table and have been brought in done by his woeful change of attitude and recycling mantra.

If I was in charge I'd identify the fact that when you sack a senior coach you usually have his assistants sitting around with contracts that need replacing also as the new coach wants to build a new team around him and this is an expensive exercise eg Ratten , Riley , Richardson , Williams when Malthouse came in . I think you make a fantastic point that we didn't replace Leppa and Cambo and if we do the maths now is the time to replace Hardwick and let the new coach interview the guys left . I reckon Ross Smith and Danny Daley and Tim Clarke will survive but the rest might not survive the cut.

Didn't we get in Andrew Mcqualter and Max Bailey to assist with development at the end of last year as the other 2 were leaving? Not the same calibre but both attract a wage

 

[Tiger_man322]

Your lack of faith in the Richmond horde disturbs me greatly! We drew 40,125 against Fremantle last season in round 17, I doubt it will be much lower, maybe 35,000ish

We were also finals bound and playing decent footy.

We are a game and percentage away from being at the bottom. If anymore then 20K show up, I'd be surprised.

 

[thecotch]

yes, but if you have followed Richmond for along while, you will understand that we don't pack it in as supporters just because we are shite.

I've followed the tiges for 45 years and been a member for 25 of them so yes I do know how things operate at tigerland. My resolve (from an attendance perspective) is seriously being challenged and to be honest, for the first time in all my years of support, I've lost the passion to go to the games these next two weeks purely because of the lack of effort evident in our games thus far in 2014. We're dishing up some real tripe. When the heat was on the last two weeks we've been out-played and out-coached. We now play two serious premiership contenders who are loaded with mature talent and real leaders and there's a real possibility we will once again have our pants pulled down. I just can't stomach sitting there any more and watching the carnage. Apart from individual careers, there's nothing to play for half way through the season and it's a disgrace to be honest. There are much more important things to do in life and not waste time watching a team simply roll over and die each week. Once again, supporters are now hoping we finish as low as possible to pick up decent draft picks. Same old tigers.

 

[Tiger_man322]

Couldn't disagree more.... the fact that they can do it sometimes shows that the gameplan works when players work hard..... but they can't do it for long enough. That's on the players.... They can blame lack of fitness but they think they are fit enough.... quoted by Maric. Therefore it's a mental thing or a belief thing. Maybe some of the players don't trust their teammates will always do the right thing.... Wouldn't surprise me, I see a bunch of them not work hard enough or take selfish options all the time.

The fact that they can do it means the plan is ok. If they couldn't ever do it then it would be the coach.... but right now it's all about the application (or in this case, the lack of it). Need to turn over the players until we are left with the ones that can do it (my guess is we need another 10 at least on our list that can contribute).

But how do you get the players to start playing like AFL players? They haven't been able to do it for 12 rounds. Still a mess. Unfortunately, it lies with Dimma to make sure his players are playing to a standard that's acceptable. Regardless if he is doing okay with the game plan, everything else with coaching.

He continues to pick players that plain old suck. Chaplin has not played a decent game all year, but continues to get a game. Vickery hasn't played a decent game, gets dropped for a week, and regardless of how he plays he is back in the following week. Grigg, Houli, list goes on.

Tuck, Nahas and White have left. No major list changes to a list that made finals last year. So no excuse as to why they are playing like a ******* rabble.

Maybe a new coach is needed.... To come in and say "You guys are pathetic. This is a standard you must play, if you don't, you won't play seniors. Simple" If the players don't like it they can * off. DImma may all and well say something similar, but then to continue to play guys like Chaplin, Grigg, Houli, Hampson. It contradicts the message if it's similar.

 

[Tiger_man322]

I've followed the tiges for 45 years and been a member for 25 of them so yes I do know how things operate at tigerland. My resolve (from an attendance perspective) is seriously being challenged and to be honest, for the first time in all my years of support, I've lost the passion to go to the games these next two weeks purely because of the lack of effort evident in our games thus far in 2014. We're dishing up some real tripe. When the heat was on the last two weeks we've been out-played and out-coached. We now play two serious premiership contenders who are loaded with mature talent and real leaders and there's a real possibility we will once again have our pants pulled down. I just can't stomach sitting there any more and watching the carnage. Apart from individual careers, there's nothing to play for half way through the season and it's a disgrace to be honest. There are much more important things to do in life and not waste time watching a team simply roll over and die each week. Once again, supporters are now hoping we finish as low as possible to pick up decent draft picks. Same old tigers.

My Father wants to attend Freo game this week. I don't want to go, but I'll have to. To put up with Freo flogging us and my Dad saying "I don't know why you bother with this club. They always promise so much, and just throw it back in your face.'

Years before, I would argue to no end with him about the club, regadless of how we were going. I argued with him for an hour after the Geelong game in 07' Saying that we would be better as a club because of it.

This year... It's hard to argue with him anymore.

 

[thecotch]

My Father wants to attend Freo game this week. I don't want to go, but I'll have to. To put up with Freo flogging us and my Dad saying "I don't know why you bother with this club. They always promise so much, and just throw it back in your face.'

Years before, I would argue to no end with him about the club, regadless of how we were going. I argued with him for an hour after the Geelong game in 07' Saying that we would be better as a club because of it.

This year... It's hard to argue with him anymore.

This is a typical tiger attitude now. You're not alone. I too once again struggle to take my 16yo son to games when we're back to again leaving at 3qtr time deflated and resigned to the fact we're a s**t football team and back to old habits. Poor kicking, poor leadership, poor effort, poor decision making, poor coaching etc. There's only so much evern hard core tiger fans can take.

 

[Tiger_man322]

This is a typical tiger attitude now. You're not alone. I too once again struggle to take my 16yo son to games when we're back to again leaving at 3qtr time deflated and resigned to the fact we're a s**t football team and back to old habits. Poor kicking, poor leadership, poor effort, poor decision making, poor coaching etc. There's only so much evern hard core tiger fans can take.

I feel for you mate. I'm only 22. I've been alive for all 3 finals appearances we've made (I can only really remember last year though)

Hawthorn, Geelong, Brisbane have won as many GF's in my lifetime, as we've made finals. Dad being a Mad Hawk man has made sure I'll never forget that either.

Some posters on here are sick of my ramblings, and fair enough. I'm negative when I'm negative, and negative when I'm positive. But, this is the only place that I have to vent any frustration, because when I have a ramble to anyone in my family, or any of my friends they just say "You choose to support them"

Yeah, I do. That's passion. Same reason they choose to tune in to the Bombers, Kangas, Hawks, Brisbane every week, or go see them when they can.

But, I think that a majority of RFC supporters at the moment would be in the same boat and be at our wits end.

 

[Goldfrog]

Essentially he should be starting to feel some heat , they all should . They've called for us to support Hardwick and the club for 11 rounds so I'm sure they'll understand that mantra has a used by date , especially after the last 2 performances . Peggy should be feeling it too.

Bennys got and earned a lot of respect off the supporters so it's time to step up and make some tough calls.

Pretty sound comments. I have said several times that we should cut through the bullshit and be more honest about where we are heading. I think the AFL world is aware of our problems, so we should face up to them.
Coaching, support staff, development and recruiting.Not everything is bad and not everything needs fixing but this is a good time to be focussing on those problems that do need the most attention.
Benny does have, and has earned, a lot of respect but it won't last forever. Time to start dong something, Benny.

 

[thecotch]

Pretty sound comments. I have said several times that we should cut through the bullshit and be more honest about where we are heading. I think the AFL world is aware of our problems, so we should face up to them.
Coaching, support staff, development and recruiting.Not everything is bad and not everything needs fixing but this is a good time to be focussing on those problems that do need the most attention.
Benny does have, and has earned, a lot of respect but it won't last forever. Time to start dong something, Benny.

I laughed when i walked past the coaches box at the end of the norf game and saw jake king come out behind dimma. Yep, jakey, helping out the coaches. Surprised Toby Mitchell wasn't in tow as well.

 

[Goldfrog]

Why should he be getting baked? We continue to take leaps and bounds where his direct responsibility lies.

Just because he's an ex-football player doesn't mean he's tangibly responsible for match day performances even though it's something he should clearly be overlooking.

For me there is one person who is falling completely out of the radar whose direct responsibility the onfield performance actually is.

Dan Richardson, General Manager of Football. He's ******* AWOL.

He should be sat right beside Dimma and Burge, and questioned ahead of Hartley to answer questions of this failure. This is his direct responsibility.

This is a man who was awarded a spot with no formal process, no such experience in a football role actually being a former player agent, and the son of Barry Richardson. Smells like a Nepotism based appointment.

Benny is responsible overall. That means if he thinks that Richardson needs to be held accountable, then he should bloody well do it. I agree with you, the problem isn't Benny as such but he is the one who has to fix things. Richardson, coaching, recruitment, development, they all have to be on the agenda.
Or we can do nothing!!!

 

[This Is Anfield]

Pretty sound comments. I have said several times that we should cut through the bullshit and be more honest about where we are heading. I think the AFL world is aware of our problems, so we should face up to them.
Coaching, support staff, development and recruiting.Not everything is bad and not everything needs fixing but this is a good time to be focussing on those problems that do need the most attention.
Benny does have, and has earned, a lot of respect but it won't last forever. Time to start dong something, Benny.

Also some pretty sound comments, and to be honest there has been, mostly, some pretty solid posting from everyone, some are more volatile and emotional than others, but there is nothing wrong with that, some are more measured and conservative, nothing wrong with that either.
On Benny, I have no doubt that, behind closed doors, he and his team are focusing very heavily on the areas that need most attention, I'm more than happy that they aren't playing it out in the media, being seen to be seeming to do something is something I'm happy to leave to the politicians!
I'm not a great believer in change for change's sake, but if it's decided that Dimma won't be taking us forward or that Dimma will be taking us forward, then so be it, I'll respect either decision, now or in years to come.
Word of warning for all, if Dimma stays or Dimma goes there is no magical easy fix either way, this is not an era where we can get the next Royce for six shirts and a suit, or pinch Dick Clay from North, nor is it an era that we can throw big, silly money at a "big name" signing and retain our best players.
We won't be attracting a Kurt Tippett and a Buddy Franklin to Richmond, and at the same time retaining all our best players, we also won't have dozens of the best young talents in the land all maturing and improving at the same clubs, GWS & GC have that "privilege", well done AFL.
All we can do is try to be smarter and luckier, yes luckier, than the clubs in the same boat as us - St Kilda, Melbourne, Carlton, Essendon, North, Western Bulldogs, Adelaide, Port Adelaide (let's see if they can keep it going shall we), West Coast.
Collingwood, Hawthorn, Geelong & Freo will have their own trials in the coming years.
The recruiting of Grigg, Houli, Maric etc when we did was justified and all have served the club well, it's up to every player on the list to improve themselves and the team going forward. Rookies are bonuses and I can see why we got Hampson, available, cheap and we had a real need with Ivan doubtful, yes it's looking like a bust, but hey all clubs have their busts.
I will be very surprised if some serious behind the scenes work isn't taking place right now, but this season has come as a most unpleasant surprise to all, so don't expect any miracles, but do expect some professionalism and bloody hard work.

 

[Goldfrog]

Also some pretty sound comments, and to be honest there has been, mostly, some pretty solid posting from everyone, some are more volatile and emotional than others, but there is nothing wrong with that, some are more measured and conservative, nothing wrong with that either.
On Benny, I have no doubt that, behind closed doors, he and his team are focusing very heavily on the areas that need most attention, I'm more than happy that they aren't playing it out in the media, being seen to be seeming to do something is something I'm happy to leave to the politicians!
I'm not a great believer in change for change's sake, but if it's decided that Dimma won't be taking us forward or that Dimma will be taking us forward, then so be it, I'll respect either decision, now or in years to come.
Word of warning for all, if Dimma stays or Dimma goes there is no magical easy fix either way, this is not an era where we can get the next Royce for six shirts and a suit, or pinch Dick Clay from North, nor is it an era that we can throw big, silly money at a "big name" signing and retain our best players.
We won't be attracting a Kurt Tippett and a Buddy Franklin to Richmond, and at the same time retaining all our best players, we also won't have dozens of the best young talents in the land all maturing and improving at the same clubs, GWS & GC have that "privilege", well done AFL.
All we can do is try to be smarter and luckier, yes luckier, than the clubs in the same boat as us - St Kilda, Melbourne, Carlton, Essendon, North, Western Bulldogs, Adelaide, Port Adelaide (let's see if they can keep it going shall we), West Coast.
Collingwood, Hawthorn, Geelong & Freo will have their own trials in the coming years.
The recruiting of Grigg, Houli, Maric etc when we did was justified and all have served the club well, it's up to every player on the list to improve themselves and the team going forward. Rookies are bonuses and I can see why we got Hampson, available, cheap and we had a real need with Ivan doubtful, yes it's looking like a bust, but hey all clubs have their busts.
I will be very surprised if some serious behind the scenes work isn't taking place right now, but this season has come as a most unpleasant surprise to all, so don't expect any miracles, but do expect some professionalism and bloody hard work.

 

[Truetiger]

As a neutral support...... It ain't the coach... Start with getting rid of Vickery!

lets buy this person a drink Cheers

 

[Goldfrog]

Also some pretty sound comments, and to be honest there has been, mostly, some pretty solid posting from everyone, some are more volatile and emotional than others, but there is nothing wrong with that, some are more measured and conservative, nothing wrong with that either.
On Benny, I have no doubt that, behind closed doors, he and his team are focusing very heavily on the areas that need most attention, I'm more than happy that they aren't playing it out in the media, being seen to be seeming to do something is something I'm happy to leave to the politicians!
I'm not a great believer in change for change's sake, but if it's decided that Dimma won't be taking us forward or that Dimma will be taking us forward, then so be it, I'll respect either decision, now or in years to come.
Word of warning for all, if Dimma stays or Dimma goes there is no magical easy fix either way, this is not an era where we can get the next Royce for six shirts and a suit, or pinch Dick Clay from North, nor is it an era that we can throw big, silly money at a "big name" signing and retain our best players.
We won't be attracting a Kurt Tippett and a Buddy Franklin to Richmond, and at the same time retaining all our best players, we also won't have dozens of the best young talents in the land all maturing and improving at the same clubs, GWS & GC have that "privilege", well done AFL.
All we can do is try to be smarter and luckier, yes luckier, than the clubs in the same boat as us - St Kilda, Melbourne, Carlton, Essendon, North, Western Bulldogs, Adelaide, Port Adelaide (let's see if they can keep it going shall we), West Coast.
Collingwood, Hawthorn, Geelong & Freo will have their own trials in the coming years.
The recruiting of Grigg, Houli, Maric etc when we did was justified and all have served the club well, it's up to every player on the list to improve themselves and the team going forward. Rookies are bonuses and I can see why we got Hampson, available, cheap and we had a real need with Ivan doubtful, yes it's looking like a bust, but hey all clubs have their busts.
I will be very surprised if some serious behind the scenes work isn't taking place right now, but this season has come as a most unpleasant surprise to all, so don't expect any miracles, but do expect some professionalism and bloody hard work.

I'm with you in that I don't mind them not playing this out in the media, but I get frustrated when they see the need to bullshit about how things are going well. Better to shut up than bullshit. Supporters will understand then, I think. Or some will.
Agree that the recruiting of Houli, Grigg and Maric (and Chaplin) was justified at the time. Where I think they went really wrong was assuming that the "recycling approach" was always going to work and they went too far. You're correct, Hampson in hindsight was probably a mistake but again, they are not going to get everything right. And you don't mind that sometimes, if there are successes in other areas, such as development and recruiting. But there haven't been.
I'm struggling to think of any players other than Rance, Astbury and possibly McDonough that have come on. I don't count Ellis and Vlastuin as I reckon the jury is still out on their development.That either means we have recruited the wrong players or we can't develop those we have recruited. Either way, not nearly good enough and those responsible should be held accountable. Not sure that they have been though.
If Benny or whomever shakes up the footy dept and gets some real talent in there then that is action and supporters should support that. Also, whether Dimma stays or goes, it is bigger than just him, it is the whole footy dept structure.
I await the next period with great interest.

 

[The Rusty Trombone]

Pretty sound comments. I have said several times that we should cut through the bullshit and be more honest about where we are heading. I think the AFL world is aware of our problems, so we should face up to them.
Coaching, support staff, development and recruiting.Not everything is bad and not everything needs fixing but this is a good time to be focussing on those problems that do need the most attention.
Benny does have, and has earned, a lot of respect but it won't last forever. Time to start dong something, Benny.

Look how quickly Hardwick the best bloke in the world , the guy that wrestles with all the players after training and they bust through the doors of a press conference to the man carrying a cake and singing to him has lost us through lying to himself. At first I thought he was lying to us but after the round 5 win against Brisbane I knew he was lying to himself unfortunately.

I hope Benny can avoid doing the same