Trades / Delistings & Draftees 2014 (latest: Clarke & Mooney going home, Yagmoor delisted)

[Snoop Dog]

Its come to that time of year when i Just have to get my thoughts off my chest.

To be fair I saw that coming. Cant have that many blokes out injured / retired from your best 22 (Brown, Swan, Toovey, Ball, Maxwell, Fasolo, Sinclair etc), couple coming back from long lay offs (Reid and Elliott) and then a couple of kids who are just 'cooked' in Langdon and Frost and then expect to beat a side who is desperate for top 8. So the loss wasnt a surprise.

Injuries

The injuries as I noted in a different thread we have had over last 4 years have cruelled our chances and a lot have been soft tissue as Buckley has noted himself last week. Out of our best 22 at start of year that group has missed 100 games. Essendon is at circa 25-30. Its stark and makes 'winning' a hard caper.

Where is our list at

I think its in really good shape. Our best 22 on paper is competitive and the kids pushing up create real pressure. The coach has a hard call to make. Does he persist with some senior blokes not performing or does he put more time into the kids and find out where a few are at.

Players under pressure

What is very evident is that we have a group of senior players who are just not performing and unfortunately with the talent we have coming through some will have to go if only to make way for some of the kids. I just cant see how you can play a bloke like Young when you have kids performing well enough and who are good enought to take their spots. The ones I would look to trade amd delist would be;

Trades (only if can do something suitable...if not happily retain)

Jarrod Witts or Brodie Grundy - They are both super talents for the ruck but I dont think we can play both in the 22 as neither are particularly strong fwd and really struggle with applying enough fwd pressure. If you could swap one for Sam Reid then I would do it.

Lachie Keefe - If we got Frawley then I would think one of Keefe or Brown are expendable. For me i would be indifferent. Both would have currency as many clubs looking for key backs. Swans, Crows, Giants etc. I would seriously look at swapping Keefe for a kid at the Giants.

Harry Lumumba - for me he is just not doing enough. He is a senior player who struts around the club but doesnt strut around the field. Was better yesterday but when was the last time he controlled a game and influenced the outcome. We have kids coming up and he is in the way. I'd be open to him staying but if someone was keen I would let him go for the right price.

Jarryd Blair - Hard for me to say it as have loved him over the years but like Harry a senior player in age but not in deeds. He wouldnt be of much value to anyone and I would think he may get picked up in a PSD to a St Kilda or Carlton or somewhere but that would be it.

Tyson Goldsack - The hardest of all for me. One of our locals but you know his game is all about pressure and defensive acts. he is playing for a contract at present and yesterday he had 1 tackle. Again I would keep him but for me he goes back permanently and we get a small fwd in who can create pressure and tackle as well as offer something offensively.

Josh Thomas - He has gone backwards and must be a chance to be traded for mine. Obviously the Lions might be keen but would think Suns would pass given history and they dont need him. Saints, Melbourne, Carlton might be others looking for midfield depth.

Tony Armstrong - He aint worth anything but has performed well enough at times in the VFL and is probably one of the best kicks at the club. I would be inclined to give him a few games on a wing / HF and see how he goes.

Senior Delists

Quenten Lynch - I think he has been harshly dealt. Completely over trained last year and showed it in his 2nd half. Have no doubt he would have been better than White in retrospect but it is what it is and his contract and time are up.

Clinton Young - Look might be a bit tough but we have kids coming up and he is in the way. He may have another in whcih case he stays but if not I would say goodbye. He is a senior player who just doesnt influence it enough. I dont think he would have any trade value but I may be wrong.

Marty Clarke - If he couldnt get a game with this years injuries he never will

Jono Marsh - Long way to go and I would stick him on the rookie list.

Jackson Ramsay - I would probably keep him for another year but he hasnt been a standout and he would be a candidate. May go to rookie list actually. There are a couple of young blokes running around state leagues in that position i would have ahead of Jackson. I'd put him on the rookie list.

Nick Maxwell - Retired

Ben Hudson - Retired


Rookie List

Mooney and Yagmoor would be out for me. I'd upgrade Martin as well.


Senior List 2015

Note I havent assumed any of the suggested trades go through. Realistically one or maybe 2 of those blokes max would go. Dont think the draft is good enough to make massive changes.

1 Alex Fasolo
2 Sam Dwyer
3 Brent Macaffer
4 Brodie Grundy
5 Tyson Goldsack
6 Ben Kennedy
7 Harry Lumumba
8 Scott Pendlebury
9 Jarryd Blair
10 Luke Ball
11 Taylor Adams
12 Jarrod Witts
13 Nathan Brown
14 Dayne Beams
15 Jesse White
16 Jamie Elliott
17 Ben Reid
18 Steele Sidebottom
19 Lachie Keefe
20 Josh Thomas
21 Marley Williams
22 Tony Armstrong
23 Ben Sinclair
24 Tim Broomhead
25 Travis Cloke
26 Patrick karnezis
27 Alan Toovey
28 Matt Scharenberg
29 Dane Swan
30 Nathan Freeman
31 Paul Seedsman
32 Tom Langdon
33 Adam Oxley
34 Jack Frost
35 Kyle Martin
36 Darcy Moore
37 National Draft Selection
38 National Draft Selection
39 National Draft Selection

Rookies

1 Jono Marsh
2 Jackson Ramsay
3 Corey Gault
4 Mason Cox
5 Selection from the Rookie Draft


National Draft Selections

First I would look at the deficiencies

Young Fwds - We have been exposed this year with our reliance on White and no serious back up. PK is there but I think he is more 3rd tall. Gault is showing signs and I would persist but we need another one. For me I would look at Darcy Moore albeit he could go back as well. Either way I would grab another one and I would aim up for a Jamie Cripps in the 2nd round if possible. Other names I am looking at in that position are Reece McKenzie, Tyler Keitel and Matt Hammalman.

Small fwds - I think it is a real issue for us and I have my eye on a state league player who could be the answer but lets go with u18 kids. I would be doing a fair bit if I was Derek Hine trying to get into a position that would land me Jarrod Gartlett. By the time the draft comes that may mean a selection from 18-25. Kid has pace, ball skill and a defensive mindset. Jarrod Pickett could fall but I doubt it so lets discount him. Clem Smith could be an option. He is quick and aggressive. Probably needs to get fitter but a lot to like about him and he will be there at the 2nd round. Others would be Josh Hone. He is just very clever this kid and does it all. Would get him in the 3rd or 4th round I suspect.

Medium Fwds - For me I am all about James Rose at this stage. Wreaks class and decision making. May get him in third round if could trade a little higher into it. Lukas Webb, Ed Langdon, Brendan Maynard, Henry Carey would be others i would look. Langdon I suspect will go higher than people think as he will test off the charts.

Medium backs - I think we are goign to be desperate for someone to lead the back half. Frawley is importnat for that reason as well as the fact it releases Reid fwd. But lets assume we dont get him and we want Reid fwd. Scharenberg will be a leader but we want another and I would look left field and try for Jack Johnstone. Kid has leadership written all over him and mail is folk at Willy love him. he has more speed than you think, is an excellent kick and tough as a cats head. he is only 20/21 and is improving all the time. They prepare kids very well at Willy (eg Frost) and Johnstone and Owen are the next ones they have got right. If was going to draft I would look at Lim. I know people knock his kicking but its improved a lot and he is an elite runner. He gets repeat possessions and is hard. Has been an elite junior and is well liked by all around him.


Nirvana draft

Rd 1 - Darcy Moore
Rd 2 - Jarrod Gartlett
Rd 3 - Jamie Cripps
Rd 4 - Josh Hone
Rookie - Jack Johnstone

 

[DaicosianMarvels]

Harry Lumumba , Toovey, Blair, Keefe and Goldsack should all be offered up for trade and see what we can get for them. I doubt we would get much.

Armstrong, Hudson, Clarke and Lynch are all going to go you would suspect along with Mooney and Yagmoor.

 

[Travis bloke]

I don't agree I would not not be trading Keefe or any of the players you mentioned.
We need to add to the list With Maxwell and Ball retiring Swanny has one more year then he will be gone from our 2010 premiership we would have turned over nearly 16 premiership players.Josh Thomas and Lachie Keefe both around 22 you see what killed us this year injuries best to have depth .Get Frawley and another strong midfielder to rep[lace swanny best to have depth.If you are to get rid of these players we lose depth.
204cm Backmen are hard to find and keefe will be the mojo back.
The only one to trade and purley because of injuries is only Nathan brown but would want a very good player for him otherwise keep.
Since 2010 what has killed our seasons is depth and injuires we keep turning over players we fall back to the old syndrome.Get rid of one player to replace another and if they get injured no depth.Keep the players we have and ad on like the top teams do ad don't get rid of them .We are financially in a very good position especially with a few older players retiring we can darcy moore a few in the draft and maybe get a frwaley to solidify our backline with frost,brown keefe as ad ons reid and goldsac can play forward permenantly allowing the likes of Darcy moore to mature.We would then have cloke white and reid up forward 3 talls which is what we need and a few smalls as well.

We have not seen the likes of Freeman and sharenberg yet they will be bonuses next year.
Teams with depth win flags simple as that.

 

[Mudeo]

Its come to that time of year when i Just have to get my thoughts off my chest.


Trades (only if can do something suitable...if not happily retain)

Jarrod Witts or Brodie Grundy - They are both super talents for the ruck but I dont think we can play both in the 22 as neither are particularly strong fwd and really struggle with applying enough fwd pressure. If you could swap one for Sam Reid then I would do it.

We played our best football at the start of the year when both were in the team both giving a chop out to each other. Both are very young and playing very good football for their age.

 

[Seedsfan]

Patrick Dangerfield, Claye Beams, Jonathan O'Rourke, James Stewart and Jonathon Griffin are the players I want to see us target from other clubs

 

[POKsPies252]

Get Frawley as a FA
Brown for O'Rourke (we'll probably have to throw in something else?)
3rd rounder for Jeff Garlett
Blair + 2nd rd pick (30) to Melb for 2nd rd pick (22)

Draft Moore + Jarrod Garlett in ND

 

[mike123]

Trade a Jarryd Blair, Josh Thomas, Brent Maccaffer, Heritier Lumumba, Alex Fasolo for a Jeff Garlett. And maybe a third rounder.

Go hard for Aaron Young

Get another ruckman like Jonathan Giles, Jonathan Griffen, Daniel Currie, Majak Daw

Go hard for Andrew Gaff

Get James Frawley

Best 22 for next year would be:

B: Marley Williams, James Frawley, Jack Frost
HB: Mathew Sharenberg, Lachlan Keeffe, Tom Langdon

M: Paul Seedsman, Aaron Young, Andrew Gaff

HF: Steele Sidebottom, Travis Cloke, Jamie Elliot
F: Jeff Garlett, Ben Reid, Jarrod Witts

Foll: Brodie Grundy, Dayne Beams, Scott Pendlebury

I/C: Taylor Adams, Tim Broomhead, Alex Fasolo(Defender/Winger)
Sub: Ben Kennedy

Jarrod Witts or Brodie Grundy - They are both super talents for the ruck but I dont think we can play both in the 22 as neither are particularly strong fwd and really struggle with applying enough fwd pressure. If you could swap one for Sam Reid then I would do it.

Both Witts and Grundy are worth more than Sam Reid. We would have to get a draft pick or another player as well.

 

[danielnajdek]

We should go hard for one of the young kids at GWS that aren't getting games. We need another classy mid to go with Pendles.

I would love us to get Cameron but that wont happen in a million years. We need to change up our list otherwise we will just be in the same position next year.

Young guys are doing fine it's the older and experienced players that are letting us down this year.

 

[Snoop Dog]

I don't agree I would not not be trading Keefe or any of the players you mentioned.
We need to add to the list With Maxwell and Ball retiring Swanny has one more year then he will be gone from our 2010 premiership we would have turned over nearly 16 premiership players.Josh Thomas and Lachie Keefe both around 22 you see what killed us this year injuries best to have depth .Get Frawley and another strong midfielder to rep[lace swanny best to have depth.If you are to get rid of these players we lose depth.
204cm Backmen are hard to find and keefe will be the mojo back.
The only one to trade and purley because of injuries is only Nathan brown but would want a very good player for him otherwise keep.
Since 2010 what has killed our seasons is depth and injuires we keep turning over players we fall back to the old syndrome.Get rid of one player to replace another and if they get injured no depth.Keep the players we have and ad on like the top teams do ad don't get rid of them .We are financially in a very good position especially with a few older players retiring we can darcy moore a few in the draft and maybe get a frwaley to solidify our backline with frost,brown keefe as ad ons reid and goldsac can play forward permenantly allowing the likes of Darcy moore to mature.We would then have cloke white and reid up forward 3 talls which is what we need and a few smalls as well.

We have not seen the likes of Freeman and sharenberg yet they will be bonuses next year.
Teams with depth win flags simple as that.

Great post and dont get me wrong I agree with a lot of that. Dont think i was advocating a massive cull of all of them i was simply saying who could be looked at. If you keep them though the coach needs to enable a pathway for the kids and not have Young, Blair etc all getting in the way of Freeman, Scharenberg, Kennedy etc. I think Brown would stay as we need his type and he is v popular around the club. My left field option is to trade one of the young rucks for a gun player or Rd 1 selection and then get Frawley with FA. I would then train Keefe up as a ruck / mobile tall utility.

Key backs would then be Brown, Frost and Frawley. Tall, 2 are strong and Frost is your agile, mobile one to play on the Franklins etc.
Key Forwards would be Reid, Cloke
Ruck would be either Grundy or Witts with back up from Keefe or White
Backups talls White, Keefe, Gault, Marsh and Moore

That would give you two Rd 1 selections. Sure we lose one of the rucks but we can cover them and then use the pick which realistically may be 8-12. Just an idea anyway.

 

[Gone Critical]

I think what we really need more than anything for 2015 is our top players to give us more. Not through their own fault but by being injury free and up and about together. That list is made up of Cloke, Reid, Pendles, Swan, Beams and Sidebottom. Elliott is also close to joing that group. We haven't had them all perform together for a while. That would automatically make life easier for our next group of Brown, Sack, Caffer, Blair, Lumumba and Ball etc who all maybe bar Ball have more to offer.

We have a lot of promisisng kids but I think their is an over estimating of what they can do. There are a number who look good ordinary players in the making, They can hopefully reach the level but their is a lack of those who look real star material. Clearly the GC and GWS have much better youngsters but their are plenty of others who look to have some really special looking youngsters. We lack those types. I think our senior core is the area we have the best chance of improving with if thet get an injury free run. Time is starting to run out for them a bit though.

 

[MeisterBot]

This is really coming from nowhere, but would West Coast consider trading Beau Waters in light of all his injuries?

Would be exactly what we need if he can get on the park.

 

[Snoop Dog]

I think what we really need more than anything for 2015 is our top players to give us more. Not through their own fault but by being injury free and up and about together. That list is made up of Cloke, Reid, Pendles, Swan, Beams and Sidebottom. Elliott is also close to joing that group. We haven't had them all perform together for a while. That would automatically make life easier for our next group of Brown, Sack, Caffer, Blair, Lumumba and Ball etc who all maybe bar Ball have more to offer.

We have a lot of promisisng kids but I think their is an over estimating of what they can do. There are a number who look good ordinary players in the making, They can hopefully reach the level but their is a lack of those who look real star material. Clearly the GC and GWS have much better youngsters but their are plenty of others who look to have some really special looking youngsters. We lack those types. I think our senior core is the area we have the best chance of improving with if thet get an injury free run. Time is starting to run out for them a bit though.

Yeah I think that is fair. You could roll the dice on some of those seniors but I think a couple of at least have enough exposed form to say goodbye or have a stint in VFL and we will call you if need you. Problem with that is you have a few bucks tied up in those players.

My ideal team for Rd 1 would be (lets assume no Frawley)

B Williams, Brown, Frost
HB Toovey, Keefe, Scharenberg

Rationale - 3 big talls blokes one of which especially mobile. Got 1-2 lock down players and a bloke with a beaut kick who you would as the release player. Issue is probably lacks a bit of pace but Williams and Toovey have speed. Sinclair a bit unlucky.

C Sidebottom, Pendlebury, Seedsman
Ruck Witts, Beams, Ball

Rationale - Its a very good midfield. Got speed, ball use and ball winning ability. Ball is probably the one on the cusp and is limited by cirtue of fact he can only play one spot.

HF Swan, Reid, Fasolo
F Kennedy, Cloke, White

Rationale - Thats a good group. Swan and Fasolo are difficult one on matchups. Kennedy there to apply defensive pressure and run. White is the back up ruck. Could ...stress could...be dangerous with the 3rd tall.

Int Freeman, Adams, Lumumba, Macaffer

Depth Goldsack, Blair, Martin, Grundy, Young, Karnezis, Sinclair, Thomas, Dwyer, Gault, Moore etc all in the VFL.

 

[Snoop Dog]

This is really coming from nowhere, but would West Coast consider trading Beau Waters in light of all his injuries?

Would be exactly what we need if he can get on the park.

He couldnt be worth a great deal I would think. I suspect he is WCE through and through but perfect player for us.

 

[Gone Critical]

Yeah I think that is fair. You could roll the dice on some of those seniors but I think a couple of at least have enough exposed form to say goodbye or have a stint in VFL and we will call you if need you. Problem with that is you have a few bucks tied up in those players.

My ideal team for Rd 1 would be (lets assume no Frawley)

B Williams, Brown, Frost
HB Toovey, Keefe, Scharenberg

Rationale - 3 big talls blokes one of which especially mobile. Got 1-2 lock down players and a bloke with a beaut kick who you would as the release player. Issue is probably lacks a bit of pace but Williams and Toovey have speed. Sinclair a bit unlucky.

C Sidebottom, Pendlebury, Seedsman
Ruck Witts, Beams, Ball

Rationale - Its a very good midfield. Got speed, ball use and ball winning ability. Ball is probably the one on the cusp and is limited by cirtue of fact he can only play one spot.

HF Swan, Reid, Fasolo
F Kennedy, Cloke, White

Rationale - Thats a good group. Swan and Fasolo are difficult one on matchups. Kennedy there to apply defensive pressure and run. White is the back up ruck. Could ...stress could...be dangerous with the 3rd tall.

Int Freeman, Adams, Lumumba, Macaffer

Depth Goldsack, Blair, Martin, Grundy, Young, Karnezis, Sinclair, Thomas, Dwyer, Gault, Moore etc all in the VFL.

I understand your idea but round 1 2015 for me means at least Scharenberg and Freeman are unlikely to be best 22 yet. I think we will need to be patient and not be surprised if they have fallen away a bit developmentally. Thet will have both missed almost a year of footy and in Scharenberg a preseason. Crucial year for development also 1st year at a club.

Fasolo is the one I really want to see injury free next year. He is a class act by foot and can sniff a goal , we miss that type. Broomhead is more likely to be the development player who can hopefully step up in 2015 than Freeman. Blair, and I know few will agree, is still in my best 22. Gets very little credit for his good work and slammed for any mistake. Hasnt had his best season but I think he can bounce back a bit. Hard role to play the defensive forward when the rest of the team is struggling. His major fault is not kicking goals but he has shown he is capable in that area in the past.

 

[TradeDraft]

Jarrod Witts or Brodie Grundy - They are both super talents for the ruck but I dont think we can play both in the 22 as neither are particularly strong fwd and really struggle with applying enough fwd pressure. If you could swap one for Sam Reid then I would do it.

Sorry Snoop but why when we only have 2 Ruckman. Trading one away would make the Team Better?

So IF that 1 left gets Injured who would Ruck Then?

We would have to Trade another Mature Age Ruckman in

 

[TradeDraft]

Jackson Ramsay - I would probably keep him for another year but he hasnt been a standout and he would be a candidate. May go to rookie list actually. There are a couple of young blokes running around state leagues in that position i would have ahead of Jackson. I'd put him on the rookie list.

Not a Fan at all. He Turns it over a lot at VFL Level. How would he be any good at AFL Level?

 

[TradeDraft]

We played our best football at the start of the year when both were in the team both giving a chop out to each other. Both are very young and playing very good football for their age.

Sure Did.

With Witts and Grundy playing Together was about the Best we have played this season

 

[TradeDraft]

I am thinking O’Rourke could be a better get then Frawley
We really need more Tall Mids. We just have Pendles who is 185cm +

O’Rourke is 188cm and I think he be the Bigger get then Frawley as we have Marsh and Moore coming in

 

[cleomenes]

We need a few things. A big inside midfielder or two. This is assuming that Swan's injuries will finish him.
A fast ground level forward who can kick.
A fast high endurance long kicking winger. (Perhaps this is seedsman)
A better ruck solution. In hindsight, dumping Ceglar was a big error. Jesse White drops the marks he should take, and does not contribute enough around the ground. Lynch did the same. That is 2 out of 3 attempts to field a Leigh Brown type that have failed. I think that it is too difficult a strategy to execute. Witts and Grundy together has had its problems, but I think it is the best solution we have at present. A Dean Cox would be a good get.
If they are fit, I think we have the necessary personnel for the backline: the ones we have will only get better.

In short, I can see that this year is done, but the basis for next year doesn't seem too unstable. We need a better injury run, and some midfield dynamism to add to Beams, Pendlebury and Sidebottom.

 

[rustyg70]

.

HF Swan, Reid, Fasolo
F Kennedy, Cloke, White

Rationale - Thats a good group. Swan and Fasolo are difficult one on matchups. Kennedy there to apply defensive pressure and run. White is the back up ruck. Could ...stress could...be dangerous with the 3rd tall.

Int Freeman, Adams, Lumumba, Macaffer

Depth Goldsack, Blair, Martin, Grundy, Young, Karnezis, Sinclair, Thomas, Dwyer, Gault, Moore etc all in the VFL.

No Elliott????

 

[TradeDraft]

A better ruck solution. In hindsight, dumping Ceglar was a big error. Jesse White drops the marks he should take, and does not contribute enough around the ground. Lynch did the same. That is 2 out of 3 attempts to field a Leigh Brown type that have failed. I think that it is too difficult a strategy to execute. Witts and Grundy together has had its problems, but I think it is the best solution we have at present.

We have to Chase a Mature Age Ruckman. Witts and Grundy have Bright Future’s but still at least 2 years away from holding down the number 1 Ruck Spot full time

 

[Seedsfan]

We need a few things. A big inside midfielder or two. This is assuming that Swan's injuries will finish him.
A fast ground level forward who can kick.
A fast high endurance long kicking winger. (Perhaps this is seedsman)
A better ruck solution. In hindsight, dumping Ceglar was a big error. Jesse White drops the marks he should take, and does not contribute enough around the ground. Lynch did the same. That is 2 out of 3 attempts to field a Leigh Brown type that have failed. I think that it is too difficult a strategy to execute. Witts and Grundy together has had its problems, but I think it is the best solution we have at present. A Dean Cox would be a good get.
If they are fit, I think we have the necessary personnel for the backline: the ones we have will only get better.

In short, I can see that this year is done, but the basis for next year doesn't seem too unstable. We need a better injury run, and some midfield dynamism to add to Beams, Pendlebury and Sidebottom.

We made the right call dumping Ceglar he was lazy when he was at the Pies we had way to meany rucks at the side, he could not develop in the VFL side as there were guys like Wood and Witts there

 

[TradeDraft]

I would Trade Witts before I would trade Grundy.

Grundy has the Bigger Upside then Witts

 

[TradeDraft]

We made the right call dumping Ceglar he was lazy when he was at the Pies we had way to meany rucks at the side, he could not develop in the VFL side as there were guys like Wood and Witts there

Also IF we had a Ruck Coach would of helped as well

 

[eddiebankbalance]

Put Blair in the ruck with all players around the centre, create a rolling mull