EPL Clubs Falling Behind Elite

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FAITH said:
Seen a gradual decline with the top EPL clubs over the last 2 seasons. Real/Barca/Athletico/Bayern/Juve/PSG consistently outperform EPL clubs in Europe and Other Italian clubs are expected to improve this season.

SAF leaving United has had a massive impact on them, City and CFC seem to struggle when it comes to performing against the top European clubs while Arsenal seem to have stagnated, LFC and Spurs are just plain hopeless.

Given the amount of money these clubs get why are they not performing, is it the lack of top managers or wasted resources?

Lets have a nice debate :)
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OK, so this is based on European performance, hmm…

Let’s start off with the big major one. Which of these clubs are most at risk of missing out a CL spot? (I’ll even give you the position they need to finish to miss out):
Real/Barca (5th)
Bayern (5th)
Juve (4th)
PSG (4th)
Chelsea/City/United/Arsenal (5th)

Next question: Which of those clubs would earn the most revenue from TV and Prize money? Actually, no, even better question: Who would earn more TV or Prize Money in their league as of the 2016-2017 season?:

Real/Barca/Bayern/Juve/PSG.

The 17th place side of the Premier League.

The Champions League offers a lot of money by itself, but the key fact: Not including the ‘popularity’ bonus, the total prize money is only half the money that a PL side gets if they were to win the thing. Now with the popularity bonus, if any of England’s teams win, their popularity bonus is essentially double the CL Prize money they win, which is only on par to their overall domestic earnings.

Now we know that Europe has its own challenges, and as such, taking part in these competitions are going to weaken your efforts in the domestic league.

Now let’s pretend that Liverpool got 4th place and a CL place. You’re going up against, let’s say PSG in the Quarters, and you’re traveling to France. You are currently holding 4th, however Arsenal and Tottenham are hot on your tail, and you’ve got some tough match against Stoke away in what is potentially rainy conditions.

For Liverpool, what is going to be more important? The win against PSG? Or holding onto fourth and securing the CL place?

For English clubs, there is good money being there, but let's be real, if they had to choose between securing a CL spot and progressing further, they are going to tidy their backyard first. The opposite can also be said for the continental teams. Barring an extremely bad year, you expect these clubs to not only easily secure a CL spot, but to win the title on most occasions (Juve more to the fact the other big clubs in Italy are struggling). I mean, for Bayern, they'll take the title without trying, so why not give CL their biggest focus? Same goes for the others. Real and Barca would fight amongst themselves, but it seems ultimately it's a result of who wins those clashes (barring any injuries.)


That's just from a CL perspective purely. Continental teams want CL success since the domestic is a cakewalk. PL teams would rather keep their good records, and the CL is always going to be 2nd in the mind. Continental teams have more riding on PL success.

As a player, you want honours to back up your good name, you're virtually guaranteed that if you pick any of those above clubs (with the possible exception of Madrid, but let's be honest, that's more to poor management). Money is an interesting factor, I mean, heck, have you seen what the midtable clubs of the PL can do? We were fighting Marseille, Schalke, and Bayer, and we actually won. Yeah, there are good players that chose Leicester over the big teams on the continent. Let's not forget that if you are a star performer of your team in the league, where do you usually go? In Spain, Real and Barca; Germany, Munich; France, PSG. In England, you've got up to 6 big clubs that want a piece of that pie, and you know something? The sellers are aware of that. They're not forced to sell to Real and Barca, if there's an English club come a-knocking, you're going to hear them out. If the player is keener for money, and thinks he can use the Premier League to land into the elite team, be it in England or abroad, he would get onto it.

Location is a tricky one. We know about Spain (especially for South Americans), and I suppose London and Paris, but come on, Turin over Milan or Rome? Munich?


Competition in the PL is only going to get stronger. if Liverpool and Spurs get caught by Everton or another club, and they in turn threaten the top 4, actually performing in the CL is going to be a mere afterthought. There's enough money to want to enter the CL, but there's not enough there to really give a proper effort in it. I'd say the biggest winners of the PL TV deal are the midtable PL clubs. The biggest losers are the midtable clubs of the continent.


Just a quick note, has anyone noticed the number of deals lasting until 2019? I wonder why that is... hmm...
 
Fryer Tuck said:
OK, so this is based on European performance, hmm…

Let’s start off with the big major one. Which of these clubs are most at risk of missing out a CL spot? (I’ll even give you the position they need to finish to miss out):
Real/Barca (5th)
Bayern (5th)
Juve (4th)
PSG (4th)
Chelsea/City/United/Arsenal (5th)

Next question: Which of those clubs would earn the most revenue from TV and Prize money? Actually, no, even better question: Who would earn more TV or Prize Money in their league as of the 2016-2017 season?:

Real/Barca/Bayern/Juve/PSG.

The 17th place side of the Premier League.

The Champions League offers a lot of money by itself, but the key fact: Not including the ‘popularity’ bonus, the total prize money is only half the money that a PL side gets if they were to win the thing. Now with the popularity bonus, if any of England’s teams win, their popularity bonus is essentially double the CL Prize money they win, which is only on par to their overall domestic earnings.

Now we know that Europe has its own challenges, and as such, taking part in these competitions are going to weaken your efforts in the domestic league.

Now let’s pretend that Liverpool got 4th place and a CL place. You’re going up against, let’s say PSG in the Quarters, and you’re traveling to France. You are currently holding 4th, however Arsenal and Tottenham are hot on your tail, and you’ve got some tough match against Stoke away in what is potentially rainy conditions.

For Liverpool, what is going to be more important? The win against PSG? Or holding onto fourth and securing the CL place?

For English clubs, there is good money being there, but let's be real, if they had to choose between securing a CL spot and progressing further, they are going to tidy their backyard first. The opposite can also be said for the continental teams. Barring an extremely bad year, you expect these clubs to not only easily secure a CL spot, but to win the title on most occasions (Juve more to the fact the other big clubs in Italy are struggling). I mean, for Bayern, they'll take the title without trying, so why not give CL their biggest focus? Same goes for the others. Real and Barca would fight amongst themselves, but it seems ultimately it's a result of who wins those clashes (barring any injuries.)


That's just from a CL perspective purely. Continental teams want CL success since the domestic is a cakewalk. PL teams would rather keep their good records, and the CL is always going to be 2nd in the mind. Continental teams have more riding on PL success.

As a player, you want honours to back up your good name, you're virtually guaranteed that if you pick any of those above clubs (with the possible exception of Madrid, but let's be honest, that's more to poor management). Money is an interesting factor, I mean, heck, have you seen what the midtable clubs of the PL can do? We were fighting Marseille, Schalke, and Bayer, and we actually won. Yeah, there are good players that chose Leicester over the big teams on the continent. Let's not forget that if you are a star performer of your team in the league, where do you usually go? In Spain, Real and Barca; Germany, Munich; France, PSG. In England, you've got up to 6 big clubs that want a piece of that pie, and you know something? The sellers are aware of that. They're not forced to sell to Real and Barca, if there's an English club come a-knocking, you're going to hear them out. If the player is keener for money, and thinks he can use the Premier League to land into the elite team, be it in England or abroad, he would get onto it.

Location is a tricky one. We know about Spain (especially for South Americans), and I suppose London and Paris, but come on, Turin over Milan or Rome? Munich?


Competition in the PL is only going to get stronger. if Liverpool and Spurs get caught by Everton or another club, and they in turn threaten the top 4, actually performing in the CL is going to be a mere afterthought. There's enough money to want to enter the CL, but there's not enough there to really give a proper effort in it. I'd say the biggest winners of the PL TV deal are the midtable PL clubs. The biggest losers are the midtable clubs of the continent.


Just a quick note, has anyone noticed the number of deals lasting until 2019? I wonder why that is... hmm...
Click to expand...

I hope Everton return to their yesteryears of the mid 80s.
 

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Christ_JM said:
Sure. But Zaza was co-owned by Juve in 2013 when he was 21. Dybala is a big signing, but Palermo's chairman is always looking for a great deal. It is not as if Juve signed Napoli and Roma's best players.
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Who have Chelsea signed from Arsenal, Liverpool or United of late? The problem you mentioned is very real in Germany but definitely not in England. Or when there is a top 6 sale its either a squad player like Cech or a record English fee like Sterling
 
Fryer Tuck said:
That's just from a CL perspective purely. Continental teams want CL success since the domestic is a cakewalk. PL teams would rather keep their good records, and the CL is always going to be 2nd in the mind. Continental teams have more riding on PL success.
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It's this times 1000 with why Liverpool and Spurs are no chance in hell in the Europa League. What's more important to them a knock out tie in Turkey or Russia or hosting Norwich? Sad that the glory nights of European football are now just an afterthought but thats the way it is. The Championship play-off game is the biggest prize money game in the world
 
Christ_JM said:
Which is why I prefer watching the underdogs in England and watching the other European leagues.

I don't have anything against individual supporters of the Sky 3 (United/City/Chelsea), it is just that they win games by weakening their opponents when buying their best players, some of whom sit on the bench. This also applies for Bayern, Real and Barca.

It is not even the clubs' fault, it is UEFA's fault for permitting it.

"Champions" League where a team that is not a Champion of a league can become European Champions is a farce.
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We are a bit reverse. Chelsea generally buy their players from outside England(there have been a couple here and there) and strengthen their opposition with selling them decent players
 
The topic at hand is one that has been somewhat obvious for a few seasons now, though that is also a direct comparison to the EPL's dominance of Europe going back 6-8 seasons where it was pretty much the norm to see two English sides in the last four (England had 3 of the SF's in both 07/08 and 08/09). That said, I don't know if you can really use the word elite as like Kizza has pointed out, only really Barcelona, Bayern, Real and arguably Chelsea can even be considered as 'elite'. It's such a generic term; what makes a club elite? Revenue? titles won? history? ability to keep and obtain star players?

I wouldn't be too worried just yet given reasons already mentioned; Utd are still rebuilding post SAF, City are relative newcomers (they've also had pretty ordinary luck with their draws), Liverpool aren't the same anymore, Arsenal do things only Arsenal can seemingly do and well, then there's Mourinho. Chelsea's the 4th best side in Europe IMO but if Mou's not up for the challenge of winning the CL with Chelsea, arguably the only blip on his management career, then they simply won't win it. If the trend continues and the German and Italian sides continue to improve then coefficients may change the European landscape but that's going to take a good 3-5 seasons of mediocrity from the EPL sides coupled with Italian sides making deep runs and the odd EL or CL.

There's a whole multitude of reasons for this perceived drop off from this EPL. The most obvious one is that others sides from various leagues have improved, whether it be by cash injections (PSG, Monaco), management (Dortmund, Juventus) or simply just 'caring' more which as mentioned already, English sides don't seem to as much. They'd rather pick up the 3 points on the weekend over winning a European fixture these days and it's evident in the results on the European front; not just in victories, runners up, etc, but simply how many teams are actually making it into the QF's and beyond.

If you compare that to Italy and Germany, there's a want for their 'smaller' sides to want to go further as they see it as their most realistic chance of silverware, especially in Germany where Bayern has more or less monopolised the league in the past 5 odd seasons with Klopp's Dortmund the only genuine competition. I'm actually quite interested to see how Wolfsburg and Gladbach fare in this season's CL; can see the former making a reasonable run should they keep hold of KdB and not run into some group of death.

Italian sides are improving. Are they improving enough to genuinely challenge in the UCL? No, not at all but they're quite capable of taking out the EL. Juventus probably won't even make the CL final again for a while let alone win it, but throughout the league, there's some serious talent. Unfortunately Italian sides are struggling financially and often have to sell when bigger clubs come calling and thus can't really build the foundations of a successful squad over several years in the same ilk of an EPL side. The major challenge to Juve's hold on Serie A changes almost seasonally as a result, it's quite difficult for them to compete on the European front whilst still performing domestically.

Then there's the rest of Europe, largely Eastern speaking here, that is constantly improving post USSR. There's a ton of politics and what not that impacts football throughout Eastern Europe but if there's one thing Platini's done right, it is that he has created a platform for these sides to compete more evenly, albeit predominantly in the EL. Again they're far from elite but the structures and desire is there for them to do well and it only takes looking at recent EL campaigns to see that Eastern European nations are heavily represented in the latter stages.

FWIW, La Liga has obliterated everyone as far as European trophies go over the past decade. Barcelona 4 x CL Sevilla 4 x EL, Atletico 2 x EL, Madrid 1 x CL. There's also a bunch of runner up's in both CL and EL there too - the last two UEFA Super Cup's were all Spanish affairs. Yes, the money and how it's spread throughout La Liga is uneven hence why Barcelona and Madrid constantly have the money to spend absurd amounts of money though that itself has two very different outlooks. Madrid have spent in excess of 1b on transfers in the past decade or so for a seriously poor return, 1 CL and 1 La Liga in the past seven seasons while Barcelona, whom have still spent, but nowhere near as much, have created a footballing dynasty on the back of La Masia that many players past and present have labelled as the best side to ever grace the pitch.

All in all, football is far more competitive globally meaning that teams can't sustain been at the top for prolonged periods barring the accepted 'elite' of Barcelona, Bayern, Real and again, arguably Chelsea as the once used to be capable of doing so. In 3-5 seasons, it'll all change again. Football is constantly evolving and England and the EPL will eventually return to the top. You only need to look at the younger English players coming through and how much more technically adept they are to their predecessors to see that England and the EPL has the players to compete and return to the top. The revenue is and will always be there so once the technical ability and desire are in place, they'll be winning again.
 
jd2010 said:
Who have Chelsea signed from Arsenal, Liverpool or United of late? The problem you mentioned is very real in Germany but definitely not in England. Or when there is a top 6 sale its either a squad player like Cech or a record English fee like Sterling
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A.Cole is the one that sticks out, but not a heap else lately.
 
Christ_JM said:
Which is why I prefer watching the underdogs in England and watching the other European leagues.

I don't have anything against individual supporters of the Sky 3 (United/City/Chelsea), it is just that they win games by weakening their opponents when buying their best players, some of whom sit on the bench. This also applies for Bayern, Real and Barca.

It is not even the clubs' fault, it is UEFA's fault for permitting it.

"Champions" League where a team that is not a Champion of a league can become European Champions is a farce.
Click to expand...

It's a bit rich for fedora-tipping euroboos who have never been within 10,000km of 'their' team's home ground to unironically live vicariously through a multi-billion pound business who can literally afford to buy any player they want. There's no loyalty or strategy in building a list or developing youth to win a title, it's just Buy, Buy, Buy! We now live in a world where 3 of the top 5 leagues have one guaranteed winner each season and the other 2 realistically only have 2 or 3 clubs which can win it. There really needs to be an economic collapse in world football to bring it all back down to reasonable levels. Go out and support your local to get a sense of what it's really like to follow the beautiful game.
 

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moomba said:
Yes
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That was before the money was there. I support Villa, they have been largely poor for the last 20 years. If they only started winning because a takeover occurred and money came through I would not be more happy than I am now, that is because there would be no midlands to the team. No local flavour or strong affinity to the club itself. The players would be there for money first and club second.

So yes, City are part of the Sky 3, but I don't think that is something to be proud of, or to facetiously pretend as it if does not exist nor corrupt the beautiful game to at least some extent.
 
Christ_JM said:
That was before the money was there. I support Villa, they have been largely poor for the last 20 years. If they only started winning because a takeover occurred and money came through I would not be more happy than I am now, that is because there would be no midlands to the team. No local flavour or strong affinity to the club itself. The players would be there for money first and club second.

So yes, City are part of the Sky 3, but I don't think that is something to be proud of, or to facetiously pretend as it if does not exist nor corrupt the beautiful game to at least some extent.
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I loved City before the takeover, loved them after the takeover.

In the long run it's 11 blokes in your teams shirt kicking a football trying to win a game. Sometimes I think people forget about that.
 
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