List Mgmt. Have the Cats redefined how to build a Premiership side?

[M Malice]

Interesting list build information re the Cats 23 that won the flag on Saturday.

1- Only 2 players drafted by the Cats in the first round ie. Selwood and De Koning.
2- 6 rookies.
3- The bulk traded in.
4- Oldest side in AFL history.

Throws up some questions.

1- Are high draft selections overrated? Or at least the obsession with them as the primary tool to win a flag/rebuild?
2- Are players approaching/over 30 years of age underrated and put on the scrapheap too early?

 

[dlanod]

5. Have your stars willing to take significant unders because they're super local, regardless of them being locally developed or being traded in.

It's a lot easier to pay tradees and older players if you've got that extra room in your salary cap.

 

[M Malice]

5. Have your stars willing to take significant unders because they're super local, regardless of them being locally developed or being traded in.

It's a lot easier to pay tradees and older players if you've got that extra room in your salary cap.

Unfortunately not much can be done about players at Victorian clubs having much more scope for off field income from silent sponsors and club coterie big wigs... + nudge nudge wink wink we will give your wife/dad/sister etc a plumb job as a consultant.

 

[irel]

6. Have a bottomless salary cap hidden in house purchases/building licensees/fruit ambassadorial payments/partners well remunerated ghost job with impunity, no fear that you will ever be investigated.

 

[The Flying Belgian]

The biggest trap you can fall for is trying to replicate what others are doing. Sure you can take cues but usually you need to build on the knowledge others have learnt. I'd dispute saying the bulk have been traded in. From the 22 that played on Saturday, only Cameron, Touhy, Stanley, Dangerfield, Rohan and Smith. Our best side would have a similar number.

Not saying it's the same, but it looks to be roughly the same model Hawthorn took. People were looking them bringing in O'Meara & Mitchell and thinking these guys are going to be unbeatable for ages. If anything Geelong have hung onto their aging stats while the Hawks traded them out or delisted them. But as much as I like guys like Atkins and Guthrie, they're not the cream that Selwood and Dangerfield are and those are the guys that are still standing up in big moments. There will be a period of decline at some point.

I think older players are undervalued. I though when the Cats recruited Isaac Smith

7

Isaac Smith

Age

35

Ht

188cm

Wt

83kg

Pos.

M/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

21.3

5star

K

13.0

5star

HB

8.4

5star

M

5.5

5star

T

2.9

4star

CL

1.7

4star

D

19.4

4star

K

11.1

4star

HB

8.3

4star

M

3.8

4star

T

2.5

3star

CL

1.3

4star

D

19.2

5star

K

10.6

4star

HB

8.6

5star

M

7.6

5star

T

2.0

4star

CL

0.6

3star

they'd lost the plot. More fool me. But Geelong have shown that properly managed, these guys can still have solid impact.

But I think what makes Geelong such a consistent club, is solid administration and a club culture that attracts and develops smart footballers who buy into coaching ethos and while he attracts criticism, I think Chris Scott

Chris Scott

Age

48

Ht

182cm

Wt

89kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

16.6

4star

K

11.2

4star

HB

5.4

4star

M

5.1

5star

T

1.6

4star

G

0.4

3star

No current season stats available

D

13.2

4star

K

10.2

4star

HB

3.0

3star

M

2.2

3star

T

2.8

5star

G

0.4

3star

is an astute coach who has a excellent group of assistants around him.

Sure, there's likely a portion of money that comes off-field, but you've still got to put the results on the board.

 

[Dom PC]

What is in the water down at Geelong? Scotty has just found the perfect game plan for an older group of players. Their Generational/gun players are very old now but:

34 years old (3) - T.Hawkins, J.Selwood, I.Smith
33 years old (1) - Z.Tuohy
32 years old (2) - P.Dangerfield, R.Stanley
31 years old (4) - M.Bilicavs, G.Rohan, M.Duncan, C.Guthire
29 years old (2) - T.Stewart, J.Cameron

Outside of Stanley and Rohan. Those 10 players are their guns and are very old. None will be easily replaced through FA or quickly replaced through the draft. They don't have a 26 year old Selwood, Hawkins and Dangerfield to rebuild around this time. If Geelong are in the top 8 in 2024, I'll eat my hat (unless they do lure like 3 or 4 gun FA's over the next two years).

 

[briztoon]

Interesting list build information re the Cats 23 that won the flag on Saturday.

1- Only 2 players drafted by the Cats in the first round ie. Selwood and De Koning.
2- 6 rookies.
3- The bulk traded in.
4- Oldest side in AFL history.

Throws up some questions.

1- Are high draft selections overrated? Or at least the obsession with them as the primary tool to win a flag/rebuild?
2- Are players approaching/over 30 years of age underrated and put on the scrapheap too early?

Have you gone through and checked where the traded in players were drafted?

 

[Fatcat08]

Have you gone through and checked where the traded in players were drafted?

I think it meant they've only got two first round draft picks that they themselves picked. Doesn't include draft position of trade ins. But I still haven't fact checked it. Doesn't sound implausible

 

[McIvor]

I think older players are undervalued. I though when the Cats recruited Isaac Smith they'd lost the plot. More fool me. But Geelong have shown that properly managed, these guys can still have solid impact.

I think this has what separated us to some degree in that we seem to try to get our older players to play as many games as possible. Perhaps that is a personal issue or the older boys don't want a rest or we don't have faith in resting players due to who would bring in, but I think later in year with Robertson and Wilmot that we should have faith. On top of that, I think we also saw this year that the likes of Zorko and Rich do still impact games considerably, probably just as not consistently which must be hard if they're playing the majority of games.

 

[PattyKwasagun]

Not saying it's the same, but it looks to be roughly the same model Hawthorn took. People were looking them bringing in O'Meara & Mitchell and thinking these guys are going to be unbeatable for ages. If anything Geelong have hung onto their aging stats while the Hawks traded them out or delisted them. But as much as I like guys like Atkins and Guthrie, they're not the cream that Selwood and Dangerfield are and those are the guys that are still standing up in big moments. There will be a period of decline at some point.

I have been trying unsuccessfully to figure out what Richmond's pursuit of Hopper and Taranto reminded me of, but that's exactly it - O'Meara and Mitchell. Hawthorn pursued them at a similar stage of their list decline to what Richmond are doing now with Hopper and Taranto. Hope it works out similarly well for Richmond.

 

[scoman]

What I would most like to know is how they get their older players up and about, playing such good footy. Compare that to our veterans this year who fell off a cliff. Further they must be doing something exceptional in their strength and conditioning. So physically strong across the board and it has no impact in their ability to run and compete for 4 quarters.

 

[Bucking Beads]

How they've built their list has just been them adapting to the current AFL Landscape. They won because of their game plans, structures and coaching.

 

[royboys4eva]

The one thing they have done exceptionally well is build amazing depth. It allowed them the luxury of resting Dangerfield for a month mid season. Selwood missed games through the year to rest up. Parfitt who is a very good player was the medical sub. Menegola couldn't get a game. Narkle not the worst player but can come in through the season and do a job.

Ratugolea comes in and out of the side and contributes without being a star.

They rarely lose at home and can basically bank on six wins before season has started.

Also they have always played the same way down back - tall defenders floating across to take contested marks. If you try to stop Stewart - De Koning will step up or Jack Henry

38

Jack Henry

Age

25

Ht

192cm

Wt

96kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

10.3

3star

K

7.3

3star

HB

2.9

3star

M

4.0

4star

T

2.2

4star

MG

142.6

2star

D

8.6

2star

K

6.7

3star

HB

1.9

1star

M

3.9

4star

T

2.1

3star

MG

142.6

3star

D

9.6

3star

K

7.0

3star

HB

2.6

3star

M

3.6

4star

T

2.0

4star

or Kolo. Harry Taylor before that. Stanley will float back and allow Blicvacs to ruck around the ground.

They have always been so well set up. Soon as they switch the ball deep in the backline every player knows where to be 2 kicks later. That allows players to run forward with confidence.

All that said, I think they will be strong again next year, but after that they may fall off the pace a bit. Selwood - Dangerfield - Hawkins will leave a hole just through their leadership - let alone their amazing ability. Blicavs and Duncan are 31. Guthrie 30.

 

[mpal6]

Interesting list build information re the Cats 23 that won the flag on Saturday.

1- Only 2 players drafted by the Cats in the first round ie. Selwood and De Koning.
2- 6 rookies.
3- The bulk traded in.
4- Oldest side in AFL history.

Throws up some questions.

1- Are high draft selections overrated? Or at least the obsession with them as the primary tool to win a flag/rebuild?
2- Are players approaching/over 30 years of age underrated and put on the scrapheap too early?

If you're local and a decent player who got drafted elsewhere - move back to Geelong and you'll get looked after even post-career. There's lot of flexibility in what Geelong could do for say a Jeremy Cameron or Isaac Smith. They're able to produce consistently, credit to them but they can get looked after in many ways well after their career is over. I don't think there is anyway to tie that to a salary cap.

Geelong is pretty unique in this regard and they've mastered the way to take full advantage of this aspect. Players who love that lifestyle and come from that background will continue to move down there. Like right now they've lined up Bruhn and Ollie Henry who are both top picks.

 

[briztoon]

I think it meant they've only got two first round draft picks that they themselves picked. Doesn't include draft position of trade ins. But I still haven't fact checked it. Doesn't sound implausible

I very much understood that.

My posing such a question, was more about M Malice questioning the value of high draft picks.

I would 100% prefer to trade in Petracca, Harry McKay and Barrass, than go to the draft for the next 4-5 years (plus get our father son and a academy kids).

Every club would prefer to trade in proven high end talent. But it’s just not realistic. Usually it’s only 2 or 3 clubs that end up being a destination club season after season, and small market teams miss out.

On the flip side, and back to the point of my question, many of the big name players who do move, were still high draft picks, and often their club of origin is asking for as a high a draft pick/s as possible back.

 

[Gadzorks]

What I would most like to know is how they get their older players up and about, playing such good footy. Compare that to our veterans this year who fell off a cliff. Further they must be doing something exceptional in their strength and conditioning. So physically strong across the board and it has no impact in their ability to run and compete for 4 quarters.

I believe they manage those players so they recover during the season.

 

[briztoon]

I have been trying unsuccessfully to figure out what Richmond's pursuit of Hopper and Taranto reminded me of, but that's exactly it - O'Meara and Mitchell. Hawthorn pursued them at a similar stage of their list decline to what Richmond are doing now with Hopper and Taranto. Hope it works out similarly well for Richmond.

With Richmond, they still loaded up at the draft last year. Even their second round picks were being discussed by us as potential first round draftees last year.

D.Rioli (HBF), Bolton (HFF), Balta (KPD), Ralphsmith (HBF), M.Rioli ((SF) + Gibcus (KPD), Brown (HBF), Sonsie (MID), Banks (HBF/W), Clarke (SF) + Taranto (MID), Hopper (MID).

That’s a good base of young players going forward. They still have their older players for another 1 to 3 seasons.

So, unlike Hawthorn, they have had a good injection of youth.

The one obvious hole in their list is a young KPF to succeed Reiwoldt.

 

[briztoon]

I believe they manage those players so they recover during the season.

Which is what I was saying we should have been doing this year as well with the Likes of Zorko, Rich and Lyons.

 

[rye]

its worth noting that geelong traded almost entirely out of the 2020 draft for cameron, but now look to be getting 2 first round picks from that draft in bruhn and henry into the club

by leveraging themselves as a destination theyre getting highly rated draftees later on with development whilst also having the benefit of having used their draft capital in a more valuable manner previously to bring in a ready made gun

 

[BuntonRules]

What I would most like to know is how they get their older players up and about, playing such good footy. Compare that to our veterans this year who fell off a cliff. Further they must be doing something exceptional in their strength and conditioning. So physically strong across the board and it has no impact in their ability to run and compete for 4 quarters.

I believe they manage those players so they recover during the season.

Heard David King say the first choice Cats mids - the older players - averaged 80% game time. The norm is 90+. They get 2 rests a quarter, not 1. When you add that to games off (which gives the next generation time to develop), no wonder they can still produce into September.

 

[golions]

Yeah, one easy takeaway for us would be rotate / rest the older / heavy workload players against the easier opponents. Allows them to be managed to hit their peak at the right time(s) of the year

Would mean the younger brigade get more opportunities too and more of a taste of it and keeps everyone hungry and competing in the first 22

I know we’ll probably be accused of disrespecting weaker opponents etc but we have to plan around what’s best for our playing group as a whole for the whole year

 

[bungalow_bill]

I very much understood that.

My posing such a question, was more about M Malice questioning the value of high draft picks.

I would 100% prefer to trade in Petracca, Harry McKay and Barrass, than go to the draft for the next 4-5 years (plus get our father son and a academy kids).

Every club would prefer to trade in proven high end talent. But it’s just not realistic. Usually it’s only 2 or 3 clubs that end up being a destination club season after season, and small market teams miss out.

On the flip side, and back to the point of my question, many of the big name players who do move, were still high draft picks, and often their club of origin is asking for as a high a draft pick/s as possible back.

Cats have also done extremely well with father/sons. GAJ of course. Scarlett. Hawkins was picked at 41, would he have been a high draft pick?

 

[golions]

Hawkins would have been pick 1 in his draft from memory - there was a lot of hype leading up to his draft

 

[BigCat2]

Cats have also done extremely well with father/sons. GAJ of course. Scarlett. Hawkins was picked at 41, would he have been a high draft pick?

Yep. Hawkins was in conversation with Gumbleton/Hansen etc to be amongst the top handful of selections in the draft. Then the following year F/S rule became bidding and matching with your pick in that round. Known as the "Hawkins" rule. They would have had to draft him at pick 7 otherwise.

The player they got with pick 7, of course, was Joel Selwood.

 

[McIvor]

Hawkins would have been pick 1 in his draft from memory - there was a lot of hype leading up to his draft

We also can't argue where we got Jon Brown either - no idea where he would've gone in an open draft, but pick 30 was pretty generous for the gun he became.