A Thread only for the rational thinking Pies fan

[DaVe86]

Watching the game from a low-quality stream I have a few questions:

1) Why were so often unable to find targets coming out of defence? Was it our defensive structure, lack of intelligence/work to move into position, or just poor kicking?

2) I noticed that a fair number of the clearances we won weren't all too effective because we'd just bomb it long and high to no real advantage (Lumumba and Beams in particular). Was this an inside midfielders problem (no one creating space for clean disposal), a skills/composure problem or nobody providing an option up field?

I don't think we were working hard enough, but I also think we are very predictable.

I think Keeffe is a reliable user of the football, but he should not be the guy kicking in.

I would've like Goldsack to have taken it and launched a 70metre torp down the middle just to mix the game up a bit. Otherwise Seedsman or Young should take it because at least they have some penetration.

I am loathe to criticise Buckley, but clearly we have an issue bringing the ball out of defence, and secondly we have a problem locking the opposition in. It seems we zone whilst they man us up.

It's also a case of having shocking ball users down back.

Hard to find a short term solution, but I think long-term that Langdon will become a reliable user and Scharenberg will be a fantastic addition.

 

[DaVe86]

Finally a thread that is calm, rational & realistic.
To me, contested footy is the biggest hurdle.
Our forward line functioned better yesterday & can only improve.
Our back line is young, lacking confidence & a little panicked at times.
However if we manage to secure more contested ball & place scoreboard pressure on the opposition, then the back line will be under less pressure & grow in confidence.
We are missing the huge impact of Swan & Ball (over the past few seasons).
We need to find replacements. We are working on this now (Adams) although too late this year.
I think we have a good list, remember we were 8-3 half way through the season.
The wheels have appeared to be falling off (5 losses from 6), which tends to happen with young developing sides.
Still confident for 2015 with Brown back, Reid with a full pre season & hopefully Swan fit & firing.
Scharenberg & Freeman to come in.
White must start clunking some marks to stay in the 22, otherwise we look at Grundy or Gault.

This is a good post.

We do need to remember that when we were 8-3, we had an equally injured side. Swan and Ball have never hit full straps and we've played without Reid & Brown. Marley was also out the first 6 rounds as well.

So our side is capable.

It has just felt as if we've been swimming against the tide for a few years now. I think it is finally catching up with us. Our youngsters have run out of legs and teams are starting to out-muscle us. Our veterans are overburdened by having to take on too great a load. Even Pendles looks a bit out of shape.

There just aren't enough leaders. When you take Maxwell, Swan, Toovey and Ball out of a side, you lose over 800 games experience. When you replace that with Langdon, Martin, Broomhead and Kennedy you can see we have a huge leadership void.

 

[Baltimore Jack]

It is not harsh, he is not a very vocale player it is a role he has never played before, he must stay forward

A dark amber drop with a strong hops flavour; from the fresh water hills of Katmandu I think.

 

[MeisterBot]

Ball movement coming out of the back half and the midfield contest were the glaring points for mine.

We are sorely lacking the likes of a Maxwell and a Shaw to hold the back six together. Defensively, they were solid without being outstanding. But there was no system to get fluid ball movement going and the turnovers/lack of effective rebound killed us.

As for the midfield, we have a developing ruckman and a host of smaller players that overcommit to the contest. We need to because we're small, but it means our clearances aren't as clean as theirs since we have to work that much harder to spread.

Combine that with the fact that our mids are one paced and few have decisive vision/skills ala Dids and Daisy in 2010, and you can see why the defence is under the pump if our pressure game can't lock the ball in.

Freeman, Scharenberg, Karnezis and sustained growth from Broomhead will make a difference.


Our forward line was okay, would've gotten 2-3 more goals if they weren't so shocked at Broomy's lace out passing.

Leaving Smith loose will be questioned, but we have a midfield getting spanked and a young defence that will crack under repeated pressure. Buckley opted for the defensive choice over the free wheeling one. It didn't come off, but it would've been worse had he given a less accountable response.

It was a very frustrating game, because you can see the holes in our team quite clearly and you can see how it will improve in time, but people were expecting a dynasty after 2010 and so they will be impatient.

 

[jathanas]

I'm enjoying the level of discourse.

Our problems are compounded through some average recruiting and plain dumb-luck w' injuries. We are currently fielding sides that are both inexperienced and unsettled. If we were to consider our best case scenario with injuries and form, there's a bit of upside. Yes other clubs have been able to absorb losses to key personnel, we haven't. I'm comfortable with that.

The jury is still out on Bucks, but my instinct is that he will resolve our on-field shortcomings over the next year or 2, not because he is the Messiah, but because I have faith that he will leave no stone unturned to find ways to improve our side (and himself).

 

[Old Spice]

I must say our tall defenders stood up really well. Keeffe was beaten soundly last time by Jenkins but this time held him well in check and Frost did a great job on Walker.

I think the problem for us is the midfield. Part of that is Witts developing - and I think he's developing nicely - but also about getting some experience into the second tier. Even so, our prime mids aren't really getting it in there and I think we need to be sharking taps or closer checking or running through from the defensive side.

I was surprised to learn how many inexperienced players we were fielding yesterday in terms of game experience and I guess that explains a bit. Still, there are some loose defensive efforts - of note was Young and Seedsman yesterday. They excite and frustrate in equal portions.

 

[Old Spice]

Ball movement coming out of the back half and the midfield contest were the glaring points for mine.
.

This I think is a crucial area where we fall down. It seems we just cannot get it out of there. If Lumumba doesn't play as a permanent back he should still get involved in the transition out to get us running and to break the opposition set-up. Just take that short 20 metre pass out and then have someone like Seedsman riding shotgun so we can get some one-twos, run and a big kick down the wing if nothing clear opens up.

 

[surfer1]

Great thread, I get the feeling that overall posters are happy with the development of the youth, some fast tracked more than others. My query is the comments about leadership down back, I just don't see Reid, Toovey or Brown as having shown those qualities sure they add experience but not leadership....so do we need to recruit a backline leader or hang in there and hope that maybe one of Frost or Schazza ends up one?

 

[Old Spice]

We had to push our spare into the midfield to wrest back the game while Crows kept their spare in defence. Had we played someone on Smith then they may have put another there or if not then the space is clogged for our forwards.

It looked like Bucks pulled the right lever by placing an extra into the midfield as it bought us back, but that just highlights we have problems in the midfield at the minute. I was extremely impressed by Broomhead I have to say.

 

[Good_Old]

DELIST EVERYONE!!!!!!!

In all seriousness though, I've been an pretty staunch defender of Blair over his career but I can't go into battle for him any longer.
He's had more that ample chance to show why he's in the side and although he played an okay game last night, just didn't have enough impact.
Karnezis in as a replacement.

KMart, although had some turnovers, found the ball pretty well. Hopefully he's adjusted to the pace of senior footy and can have a bigger impact in the coming weeks.

Reid, expectedly rusty. His body work to get to the drop of the ball is exciting and having/keeping him in the forward line will help out Cloke immensely.

 

[DaVe86]

We had to push our spare into the midfield to wrest back the game while Crows kept their spare in defence. Had we played someone on Smith then they may have put another there or if not then the space is clogged for our forwards.

It looked like Bucks pulled the right lever by placing an extra into the midfield as it bought us back, but that just highlights we have problems in the midfield at the minute. I was extremely impressed by Broomhead I have to say.

This is the key point.

We took out a forward to go onto the ball to try and start winning contested footy. By the end of the game our contested numbers and clearances were ahead of Adelaide, which is a huge effort considering how bad we were smacked in the first quarter

However, the net effect of that move meant Smith was left along down back.

Ultimately, it was the right decision by Bucks to play and extra around the ball. It helped even out the game and we scrounged out a way to get the game back to a winning position. If we hadn't of done that, the Crows would've just won by 50 points.

Ultimately though, we need to build a midfield that can win on its own merits without the need to play our loos around the ball. The best sides have a loose across the backline or play even numbers.

Ultimately, our decision to play an extra number kept us in the contest, but Smith's influence was the decisive factor in the game along with Sam Jacobs smashing Witts in the last quarter.

 

[Old Spice]

Because we can't hit targets that is why

I tend to think it is general fitness/work-rate which makes it a requirement to be pinpoint. If our players are running to create space and an opportunity then you can kick it to their advantage side.

Of course excellent kicking skills makes everything easier but when targets are stationary or not clear then they are destined to get spoiled, especially with the treatment we get from the umpires.

 

[TradeDraft]

I don't think Grundy is ready so I'd be bringing in Karnezis.

I just want to see if it works as a strategy. If it does, then Reid is free to play defence, and he has the luxury of swinging forward if need be. Karnezis is also capable of playing on a wing.

Grundy was better then Karnezis on Sunday

 

[THATSGOLD]

Went in slightly top heavy v the running crows. Frost Keeffe Goldsack Reid white Cloke Witts Langdon Young Seedsman Harry make us a team that lacks endurance.
That's 11 that should be playing 1 on 1 and beating their opponent.
Not enough genuine midfielders and creative run in the middle. Just a lot of placing guys to run around anywhere.

Today game is played where you need more mids that rotate and follow the ball all game. We were out numbered just about everywhere.

Also to add to that we replaced a running type instead of a tall.

 

[Old Spice]

This is the key point.

We took out a forward to go onto the ball to try and start winning contested footy. By the end of the game our contested numbers and clearances were ahead of Adelaide, which is a huge effort considering how bad we were smacked in the first quarter

However, the net effect of that move meant Smith was left along down back.

Ultimately, it was the right decision by Bucks to play and extra around the ball. It helped even out the game and we scrounged out a way to get the game back to a winning position. If we hadn't of done that, the Crows would've just won by 50 points.

Ultimately though, we need to build a midfield that can win on its own merits without the need to play our loos around the ball. The best sides have a loose across the backline or play even numbers.

Ultimately, our decision to play an extra number kept us in the contest, but Smith's influence was the decisive factor in the game along with Sam Jacobs smashing Witts in the last quarter.

It can be a valuable strategy to have an extra around the middle and that is what Sydney did a year or two ago along with their forwards pressing up too. When they won the ball they would all stream forward into space and create mayhem.

 

[TradeDraft]

Ball movement coming out of the back half and the midfield contest were the glaring points for mine.

We are sorely lacking the likes of a Maxwell and a Shaw to hold the back six together. Defensively, they were solid without being outstanding. But there was no system to get fluid ball movement going and the turnovers/lack of effective rebound killed us..

Agree, Ball Movement is way to Slow or we just Handball too much.

Outside of Langdon we are lacking a Good Rebounding Defender

 

[Seedsfan]

I tend to think it is general fitness/work-rate which makes it a requirement to be pinpoint. If our players are running to create space and an opportunity then you can kick it to their advantage side.

Of course excellent kicking skills makes everything easier but when targets are stationary or not clear then they are destined to get spoiled, especially with the treatment we get from the umpires.

We don't have that meany guys who have elite pace and the other problem is the young blokes are cooked at the moment

 

[DaVe86]

Went in slightly top heavy v the running crows. Frost Keeffe Goldsack Reid white Cloke Witts Langdon Young Seedsman Harry make us a team that lacks endurance.
That's 11 that should be playing 1 on 1 and beating their opponent.
Not enough genuine midfielders and creative run in the middle. Just a lot of placing guys to run around anywhere.

Today game is played where you need more mids that rotate and follow the ball all game. We were out numbered just about everywhere.

Also to add to that we replaced a running type instead of a tall.

I think the team we picked is the team I want to see going forward.

Broomhead added some nice outside skills whilst still having an ability to win his own footy, whilst Martin has been a clearance machine at VFL level.

Young, Harry and Sidebottom are nice outside players.

We just got smashed on the inside so we didn't have the opportunity to play outside.

To be honest I think we picked the best team available. (if you take into account that Karnezis and Fasolo are not ready)

I don't think JT or Dwyer are top 22 right now.

We really need another wingman in the team. Maybe when Scharenberg comes into the side we can push Seedsman onto a wing.

Otherwise I was happy with selection.

Ultimately we were in a winning position deep into the last quarter against a decent side. The problem is polish and composure under pressure. Our game plan isn't been adhered to and young players just aren't grasping it yet.

I was actually very happy with the side we picked and hope we continue with it.

 

[DaVe86]

We don't have that meany guys who have elite pace and the other problem is the young blokes are cooked at the moment

I think we have pace.

Seedsman, Kennedy, Broomhead, Elliott, Lumumba, Young all have pace, and Freeman will add something as well.

We just aren't utilising our outside run because too many players are committing to contests. The game plan needs tinkering.

 

[cleomenes]

"Ideally in the off season I would like us to pick up 3-5 players, all experienced and capable of playing AFL senior football if need be, but not necessarily in our best 22.

We need more depth, and with the current list it's going to take another year or two before the youngsters either provide that depth or push some of the senior players out and then they become depth."

I can't agree with this. We have plenty of depth, with 12-15 players vying for the last 8 places. The problem is that none of them are notably than the others. We need some more quality. We are all hoping that Scharenberg, Broomhead, Karnezis and Freeman will provide this. We haven't seen enough yet to know.
This week, we can't blame the passing into the forward line too much. The dropped marks from really good passes were a real problem.

On another note, did anyone else feel that the umpiring was far worse than in the Swans game. I really thought that the poor quality of our game brought the worst out of the umpires too. (Inconsistent and some baffling decisions.) In particular I was very unhappy to see the head first barge again drawing free kicks, and jumper holding\ scragging seems to be acceptable again. Silvagni would fit in once more.

 

[THATSGOLD]

I think the team we picked is the team I want to see going forward.

Broomhead added some nice outside skills whilst still having an ability to win his own footy, whilst Martin has been a clearance machine at VFL level.

Young, Harry and Sidebottom are nice outside players.

We just got smashed on the inside so we didn't have the opportunity to play outside.

To be honest I think we picked the best team available. (if you take into account that Karnezis and Fasolo are not ready)

I don't think JT or Dwyer are top 22 right now.

We really need another wingman in the team. Maybe when Scharenberg comes into the side we can push Seedsman onto a wing.

Otherwise I was happy with selection.

Ultimately we were in a winning position deep into the last quarter against a decent side. The problem is polish and composure under pressure. Our game plan isn't been adhered to and young players just aren't grasping it yet.

I was actually very happy with the side we picked and hope we continue with it.

I think you need to pick a team with more than 2 genuine mids. I'd like to us to recruit some more on ball match winner now and forgot about Frawley. We have so many half back flankers when you look at it and I lot of guys that just float around. We need to quality to follow the ball around the ground.
Pendlebury and Beams are great.
Sidebottom I see a for/mid
Martin forward/mid
See what I mean. More genome midfielders.

When I look at those 11 top heavier guys we took in it's no wonder the crows had loose men in the last quarter.

 

[Seedsfan]

I think we have pace.

Seedsman, Kennedy, Broomhead, Elliott, Lumumba, Young all have pace, and Freeman will add something as well.

We just aren't utilising our outside run because too many players are committing to contests. The game plan needs tinkering.

We do but Lumumba has has a bad year Broomy and Kenno have hardly played and Freeman has never played

 

[DaVe86]

I think you need to pick a team with more than 2 genuine mids. I'd like to us to recruit some more on ball match winner now and forgot about Frawley. We have so many half back flankers when you look at it and I lot of guys that just float around. We need to quality to follow the ball around the ground.
Pendlebury and Beams are great.
Sidebottom I see a for/mid
Martin forward/mid
See what I mean. More genome midfielders.

When I look at those 11 top heavier guys we took in it's no wonder the crows had loose men in the last quarter.

We have enough mids, I just don't think we have the right balance of inside and outside.

Two weeks ago we had Ball, JT, Kennedy, Beams, Pendlebury and Adams. I think the mix is better with Broomhead in there because he has more outside game. Otherwise there are just too many inside types with not enough outside spread. It's better without Ball and JT, the issue is there just isn't a ready made outside A grader to step in and round out the midfield. Broomhead will be this I'm confident

The point is that we just don't have anything at VFL to step in right now. I'd love a Stephen Hill type to really round out the midfield...or a Chris Yarran across half back.

But its no wonder we have a shallow midfield when you lose the likes of Swan and Ball. Martin and Freeman may be the replacements long term, but we just have to be patient.

As I said, I'm happy enough with the team selected and would like to give them opportunities throughout the rest of the year to acclimatise to AFL

 

[DAWESOME!!]

Keeffe taking the kick ins annoys me. Surely you want the 200cm bloke running around giving a marking option to the kicker, not trying to kick it to one of our 170cm fleet? I guess the issue is that he's the best of a bad bunch of kicks back there. Maybe get Langdon to take the kicks? Or Seedsman?

 

[Stripes B and W]

I was happy with the selected side too although i thought a little light on for mids. Given that Broom and Martin have been the leading mids in the VFL i thought ( hoped ) they would be used more as mids filling the void of the missing Swan/JT/Ball. Without seeing any data is seemed neither spent alot of time in the midfield and BK wasnt able to add much.
Blair and H added to the midfield mix and were far from the worst.

I like Seeds but he get exposed time and time again in one of one contests, his run and carry and kicking skills means he stays in. Needs to be used in transition as much as possible, hopefully he gets a clean run at 2015, increases his fitness and continues to develop. Looks a winger to me.
Reid and Elliot ( to a lesser extent ) will improve, PK may get a chance in a reshuffle of the talls; a 15 goal plus game may be closer than we think