jathanas
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Goldscack or Young might be options as well. I agree 100%, Keeffe should be providing a target...
A Thread only for the rational thinking Pies fan
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Goldscack or Young might be options as well. I agree 100%, Keeffe should be providing a target...
I think our main concern is the ruck. Witts has been in the system for some time but really is still a kid. We are getting smashed in clearances because of hit outs to advantage. I for one like the direction we are heading because both Witts and Grundy look to have huge futures and the only way to get the experience they need is to play them. I do however think that if they are not breaking even in the ruck contest, the midfield needs to adjust and try and rove to the opposing ruckman.
Our defense lacks leaders, with Maxy and Brown out and also Toovey, I feel that if the leadership is left to Harry, then that limits his greatest asset (attack).
Harry is at his best when he can explode from contests and run and carry. Frost, Langdon and Keefe are young and have a great upside, but they are screaming out for guidance. Maybe Reid does need to go back at times, having Goldsack back there takes away his most valuable asset (forward pressure). He is a tackling machine and I feel does his best work when allowed to move forward.
I thought Broomhead showed some promise on a couple of occasions yesterday and all in all our youth in general looks to have a great upside.
On the game yesterday, I thought we lacked poise, it was lucky we were not playing at Etihad as with the height that the ball was getting sent forward, there may have been a danger of it hitting the roof. We cannot just keep blazing away, we need composure. Our problem (from what I can see) is that we attack the ball and the ball carrier too much. Don't get me wrong, it is a good trait to have, to attack the ball but when you do you have to win it.
Teams are starting to sit just off the ball because all our players go in for it and as soon as the opposition gets a sniff they flick it out and then there off. We need to be accountable for our opponents and if we can't, then somebody must. Again that will come in time as we become more accustomed to Buckley's gameplan and get some experience and trust into the kids.
This year is not for us and sadly next year may not be also but another year and 20 odd games into our ruckmen and youngsters and 2016 and beyond looks promising.
Moving forward, I think we need to recruit another experienced defender but I would keep persisting with Witts (and at times Grundy) because
they need the experience against the best in the league. Getting beaten isn't always a bad thing if they learn from it. I believe you haven't had a good fight until to have been beaten.
The Pies will rise again, keep the faith.
Remember it is a compass not a clock, it is the direction you are heading, not how fast you get there. I for one think we are heading in the right direction.
Go Pies
Our defense lacks leaders, with Maxy and Brown out and also Toovey, I feel that if the leadership is left to Harry, then that limits his greatest asset (attack).
Harry is at his best when he can explode from contests and run and carry. Frost, Langdon and Keefe are young and have a great upside, but they are screaming out for guidance. Maybe Reid does need to go back at times, having Goldsack back there takes away his most valuable asset (forward pressure). He is a tackling machine and I feel does his best work when allowed to move forward.
I thought Broomhead showed some promise on a couple of occasions yesterday and all in all our youth in general looks to have a great upside.
On the game yesterday, I thought we lacked poise, it was lucky we were not playing at Etihad as with the height that the ball was getting sent forward, there may have been a danger of it hitting the roof. We cannot just keep blazing away, we need composure. Our problem (from what I can see) is that we attack the ball and the ball carrier too much. Don't get me wrong, it is a good trait to have, to attack the ball but when you do you have to win it.
Teams are starting to sit just off the ball because all our players go in for it and as soon as the opposition gets a sniff they flick it out and then there off. We need to be accountable for our opponents and if we can't, then somebody must. Again that will come in time as we become more accustomed to Buckley's gameplan and get some experience and trust into the kids.
This year is not for us and sadly next year may not be also but another year and 20 odd games into our ruckmen and youngsters and 2016 and beyond looks promising.
Moving forward, I think we need to recruit another experienced defender but I would keep persisting with Witts (and at times Grundy) because
they need the experience against the best in the league. Getting beaten isn't always a bad thing if they learn from it. I believe you haven't had a good fight until to have been beaten.
The Pies will rise again, keep the faith.
Remember it is a compass not a clock, it is the direction you are heading, not how fast you get there. I for one think we are heading in the right direction.
Go Pies
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I think White and Kennedy could burn players running into space and hopefully Freeman. Keep Cloke in the arc and Reid running forward into space as others stream forward.
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I agree our problems are in the middle which makes the defence look worse than it is. I am very happy with our young defenders given the barrage they are under care of the problems in the middle. I am not 100% on Frawley, especially if the cost is exorbitant in years and wage, but he could fit in a 3 tall structure nicely and play smaller if required. It would be the mirror image of WC fwd line if that makes sense (Frawley the defensive equivalent of Darling).
Adams will be the Ball replacement and is certainly in the same mould. Not super efficient disposal but hard as a cat's head.
What we need to replace is someone for Thomas (early Thomas) which we may have in Freeman. Any number could wash through like Wellingham, notably Kennedy or possibly Broomhead.
Swan is still there but a player like that is hard to replace.
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manicmagpie
A slice of fried gold
Agree with your post but we had 9 2010 premership players out there yesterday so we were only missing 13.
The Middle:
Contested footy is our biggest problem by a country mile. We were smashed in clearances. Adelaide got out too easy too often, and it highlighted the inexperience and vulnerability of our defence.
Now it’s easy to say Beams and Pendlebury were our best players. However, is that really the case considering in my eyes were smashed in the middle, and they’re the two main players going through the middle? Beams didn’t register a tackle until the last quarter (4). Pendlebury had 3 for the game. Crouch had 9 for Adelaide on his own.
Harry L was inspirational in the last quarter for us in the middle. The times he was in the middle we halved contests, and won more clearances. He breaks the lines and takes players on which we needed desperately.
Defending stoppages is another low point. Too often too easily Adelaide got the ball out, and ran off in waves.
Defence:
The biggest issue here is continuity. Great teams usually have a consistent back 6. The second is experience.
Looking beyond that is ball movement from defence. The frustration with people at the game is with the kicker. However the movement of the team is virtually stagnant. Hawthorn players know where to run and move at all times. Collingwood players; do not, or can’t, or don’t.
Defending kick ins is also equally lacking. There appears to be very little pressure on the kicker, and teams too often find a way out. Our good is very good when defending, but too often lapses cost us.
Forward:
I think the day of the contested forward is coming to an end slowly. It is too easy to zone off and stifle Cloke if he engages his opponent physically. Hawthorn’s forward setup is by far the best, constant movement and precise kicking.
With time Cloke, Reid and White will pay dividends as tall forwards. Elliot is by far the best of the small brigade. And with the inclusion of a 3rd tall defender should send Goldsack forward to allow pressure to be generated on the forward line. Given Elliot’s height, I don’t think there is room for Blair because right now, the impact he’s having is minor.
Positives from Adelaide:
Kyle Martin’s inclusion. I think he can use the ball, and with time in the system will adapt.
Harry L in the middle, and his persistent run.
A quarter and a half of footy we played we looked well when we ran, and took on the game, and the opposition. We desperately need more of that.
Contested footy is our biggest problem by a country mile. We were smashed in clearances. Adelaide got out too easy too often, and it highlighted the inexperience and vulnerability of our defence.
Now it’s easy to say Beams and Pendlebury were our best players. However, is that really the case considering in my eyes were smashed in the middle, and they’re the two main players going through the middle? Beams didn’t register a tackle until the last quarter (4). Pendlebury had 3 for the game. Crouch had 9 for Adelaide on his own.
Harry L was inspirational in the last quarter for us in the middle. The times he was in the middle we halved contests, and won more clearances. He breaks the lines and takes players on which we needed desperately.
Defending stoppages is another low point. Too often too easily Adelaide got the ball out, and ran off in waves.
Defence:
The biggest issue here is continuity. Great teams usually have a consistent back 6. The second is experience.
Looking beyond that is ball movement from defence. The frustration with people at the game is with the kicker. However the movement of the team is virtually stagnant. Hawthorn players know where to run and move at all times. Collingwood players; do not, or can’t, or don’t.
Defending kick ins is also equally lacking. There appears to be very little pressure on the kicker, and teams too often find a way out. Our good is very good when defending, but too often lapses cost us.
Forward:
I think the day of the contested forward is coming to an end slowly. It is too easy to zone off and stifle Cloke if he engages his opponent physically. Hawthorn’s forward setup is by far the best, constant movement and precise kicking.
With time Cloke, Reid and White will pay dividends as tall forwards. Elliot is by far the best of the small brigade. And with the inclusion of a 3rd tall defender should send Goldsack forward to allow pressure to be generated on the forward line. Given Elliot’s height, I don’t think there is room for Blair because right now, the impact he’s having is minor.
Positives from Adelaide:
Kyle Martin’s inclusion. I think he can use the ball, and with time in the system will adapt.
Harry L in the middle, and his persistent run.
A quarter and a half of footy we played we looked well when we ran, and took on the game, and the opposition. We desperately need more of that.
Keeffe is just one of those players who is continually over rated. Yes he is tall and agile, and obviously must be impressive in and around the club given he is in the leadership group, but does not have a great football brain. He is one player I would be willing to trade if we could redeem anyhting for him, but that seems highly unlikely.
Accuse me of living in the past, but MM never played a spare player behind the ball because it frees up an opposition player behind the centre square, which gives the opposition in possession of the ball an extra player at the contest. Also it sends a message to the opposition team that we're not good enough to win the centre clearances ourselves. The top teams such as Sydney, Geelong and Hawthorn don't play spare players in the back half that we did yesterday. Also MM never played taggers because it denies extra players to the contest. Mick's philosophy was one on one contests and when you have possession of the ball create extra players running forward to overwhelm the opposition.
Buckley's game plan changes weekly which confuses the players. MM had a simple game plan which never changed so at least players knew where they stood with the game plan. Buckley seems to me to be trying too hard and expecting too much from the players. Also each week different players are tried in different positions which only makes things worse. Buckley needs to go back to basics, listen to the advice he is getting from his assistant coaches but filter out the advice which doesn't fit with Buckley's own philosophy. In other words, Buckley should go with his gut feel and drop all the scientific theories which are making him a worse coach than he is. Since he has a three year contract he has plenty of time to get it right. At the moment he is failing as a coach in terms of momentum of the team and wins and losses record and ladder position of the team and lack of improvement of certain players in the team.
Kennedy didn't lack any fitness in the game he played against Western Bulldogs and was our third best player on the ground, so don't understand why he has been sub the last two games. Poor decision by the football department backed up by comments by the media.
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My thoughts on a couple of things.
Rucks: I think Witts has been a revelation this year and if he keeps improving will be a major asset in a couple of years. He held his own against Jacobs and also was better around the ground. Grundy and Witts will be players, but we are really lacking a marking option coming out of defence from them. That was something Jolly could do clunk a mark, we will look allot better for that. Still I think that will only come with time
Harry O: He does some great things breaks a couple of tackles but he just bombs it into the 50 as high as he can. I am really not sure if his line breaking outweighs his wastefulness.
Not Holding Onto the Ball: When we got tackled yesterday no one seemed to hold on to the ball for a ball up. They always seemed to do the extra thing and get a handball out. Majority of the time it seemed to go to the opposition and cause a turnover. Are we trying to do too much with it. Especially in our forward half we just need to lock it in sometimes, it seemed to be the younger players.
Upside: I think being a young side we have to expect games like this where we play well for most of the game but switch off and have very bad patches. Had we kicked a couple when we should have in the last we would be having a different conversation.
Rucks: I think Witts has been a revelation this year and if he keeps improving will be a major asset in a couple of years. He held his own against Jacobs and also was better around the ground. Grundy and Witts will be players, but we are really lacking a marking option coming out of defence from them. That was something Jolly could do clunk a mark, we will look allot better for that. Still I think that will only come with time
Harry O: He does some great things breaks a couple of tackles but he just bombs it into the 50 as high as he can. I am really not sure if his line breaking outweighs his wastefulness.
Not Holding Onto the Ball: When we got tackled yesterday no one seemed to hold on to the ball for a ball up. They always seemed to do the extra thing and get a handball out. Majority of the time it seemed to go to the opposition and cause a turnover. Are we trying to do too much with it. Especially in our forward half we just need to lock it in sometimes, it seemed to be the younger players.
Upside: I think being a young side we have to expect games like this where we play well for most of the game but switch off and have very bad patches. Had we kicked a couple when we should have in the last we would be having a different conversation.
Gone Critical
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Leadership is a really interesting thing with this team. Maxwell gone leaves a massive hole in this area. In hindsight he was providing a great foil to Pendles, providing that overt stuff on the ground. Pendles seems to have tied up considerably in the last six weeks. Captaincy doesnt seem a natural part of him. Has gone into his shall a bit when the game is on the line. He is an instinctual player and is maybe overthinking his role.
We lack a bit of personality in the team. Yeaterday whenwe challenged them you could see Dangerfield just take the bit between the teeth and impose himself. Who is our best bet to take over a similar role at Collingwood?
We lack a bit of personality in the team. Yeaterday whenwe challenged them you could see Dangerfield just take the bit between the teeth and impose himself. Who is our best bet to take over a similar role at Collingwood?
Spot on. We've lost a ton of possessions out of the middle. Swan Ball Didak Wellingham D. Thomas not only have we lost those possession getters most of them were quality. (and it's not just in the middle they followed the ball EVERYWHERE) extremely hard to replace them with guys that don't have the frame of the lungs grunt and skill.
Forget Frawley now, it's time to chase quality midfielders that can go in there and stay there and follow the ball all game. I don't want to throw up names but if you were going for younger guys maybe someone like Whitfield in the engine room is what we need to chase maybe even some that are ready made. Tough gig getting quality mids to come across but I don't think you could go wrong chasing a few taller type mids that can run all day.
We have two quality mids that will be under the pump again next season if the guys around them are only Kennedy and Broomhead. They're for the future. We need guys that can play right away with Beams and Pendlebury. I'm not sold on Josh Thomas, he'd be ok in an elite side as a sub or rotating in the middle: Not a first class midfielder.
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Bringing in Karnezis, Freeman and Scharenberg next year will help the midfield. Freeman will be the only midfield-first player in that bracket, but Pendles, Beams, Swan, Sidebottom, Adams and Freeman is a decent looking unit before we look at more of the part timers like Broomhead, Scharenberg, Lumumba, etc.
If we want to "chase" a midfielder, O'Rourke for Brown and an upgrade of second round picks maybe? Not like GWS will care about non-first round picks.
I am not for it because I think Brown has the capacity to build a rebound game (and was building one in the VFL before he got injured again) and we're out of the race for Frawley (?) so we're light on KPD depth.
But yeah. If a midfielder was a priority, we could get O'Rourke for Brown and a swap of picks. GWS need a hardened KPD and Brown is a former first rounder himself.
If we want to "chase" a midfielder, O'Rourke for Brown and an upgrade of second round picks maybe? Not like GWS will care about non-first round picks.
I am not for it because I think Brown has the capacity to build a rebound game (and was building one in the VFL before he got injured again) and we're out of the race for Frawley (?) so we're light on KPD depth.
But yeah. If a midfielder was a priority, we could get O'Rourke for Brown and a swap of picks. GWS need a hardened KPD and Brown is a former first rounder himself.
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Swan is injured and getting older, ditto for Ball. Didak was cooked, Thomas not worth 750k p.a., Wellingham has gone to seed if his team selection is any indication.
The point here is not just whether we withered on the vine and mugged ourselves by paying overs for Thomas or nightclub bunnies, but if we were going to push forward with the next generation. I think we've done that with some aggressive trading and now we need to be patient.
Scharenberg, Freeman, Broomhead, Grundy, Adams, Kennedy. We have the talent and some others who will come up and surprise us as Swan did. We just need to hold that line and wait for the development to come.
PTpie
Team Captain
I'll put in this link for your reference. Not to antagonise but more for clarity on the current "clearance" issue. We dominate from stoppages and are abysmal at centre bounces. To often last night the Crows scored back to back within 30 seconds from relatively uncontested center clearances. From what I have seen this year if the centre bounce becomes messy we win it more often than not. However if the opposing team gets a clean first possession they are away untouched. It sounds to simple but I feel our outside runners are assuming we are going to win the ball and leaving their opposite unattended. On the other hand we rarely seem to have "clean" breaks from the centre. Often its a struggle or the result of 4 - 5 short, sharp handballs and a runner busting a tackle (Harry O was exciting!).
This is directly related to our ruck. I am a fan of Witts, Grundy and even White in the ruck, but they are often completely beaten with first touch and don't apply enough body on body to disrupt the opposing ruck. Thus leading to a tap down the throat of Dangerfield or Crouch (for instance) and a fast, clean handball to an outside runner or a 40 meter kick into our defensive 50.
I also feel that halfway through the 3rd quarter it was evident that Smith and Dangerfield were probably the 2 most dominant players on the field and our coaches and players did nothing to stop them. Macaffer should have switched to Danger and Blair should have been tighter than a hangmans noose on Smith.
What a great thread. Reacting irrationally has never helped anyone ever so it's good to see so many willing to take the time to assess where we're at.
I wasn't particularly confident going into yesterday's game, considering the way Adelaide beat us last time. They beat us on intensity and on contested ball. I totally understands the INs for the game, but damn that midfield is not made for tough contested games, more so with the additions of Martin and Broomhead (even though Broomhead did very well and seems to bring something valuable to us which is clean skills).
Yesterday I was underwhelmed by our forward line because I thought having the right players in there would help the rest of our structure greatly. However Reid looked very slow and unfit and Cloke didn't have a good game, it was also Elliott first game back and we tried a few options as a second small forward, none of which seemed to work particularly well. So let's persist with this and see what happens when we have a fitter forward line.
We definitely lost the game in the midfield. As individuals, they are almost all great. As a unit, they are not working well. We lose most clearances and we never seem to get into space, while being outnumbered at every stoppage or whenever the ball comes out of the pack. We overcommit to the contest, which shows good hunger for the ball but what it shows is lack of footy smarts (I can only think of Pendles and Langdon as genuinely smart footballers, the rest often second guesses themselves and takes ages to make a decision). We need to be aware of where the opposition midfield is and adjust our patterns accordingly. Easy to say of course but unfortunately this means we need to try dropping Macaffer. He's performed his role very well throughout the year but we're essentially always looking for support in the midfield and never seem to find it (we've seen many find themselves short of options yesterday, Beams, Pendles and Sidey come to mind). We should only bring him when we feel the opposition does has one single stand out midfielder that will kill us if we don't shut him down (e.g Ablett).
Outside of Pendles and Lumumba, who in our midfield is genuinely hard to tackle (Lumumba was close to BOG for us yesterday, one of the few winning his own ball)? We don't break lines with our run, we lose the clearance count most weeks and because we don't have clean foot skills we are made accountable for it. Yesterday we were out-muscled, in the bottom of packs as well as in marking contests outside of our defence which actually did pretty well considering the circumstances.
Regarding the kick ins, we have been terrible at the kick ins since... I don't even remember. But the fact that we have tried so many different set ups and the issue has bee persisting issue shows that it's actually not a tactical issue but rather an issue of players skills/confidence. We don't have players with great foot skills in our defence and hence we are very easy to lock in our defensive fifty. Basically nowadays with the congestion on the ground, teams get out of their defensive fifty by spotting a unmanned teammate very quickly and kicking it to him with accuracy. However there is always a danger involved in these kicks as most players would always have an opponent within 5-10m. What this means for us is that our players who don't have self belief in their kicking or simply don't have the skills always tend to wait for an easier opportunity that never comes.
I understand why Keeffe is kicking in because he actually is a very good kick (good technique), but his decision making is probably the biggest weakness in his game so he never makes the right decision.
I wasn't particularly confident going into yesterday's game, considering the way Adelaide beat us last time. They beat us on intensity and on contested ball. I totally understands the INs for the game, but damn that midfield is not made for tough contested games, more so with the additions of Martin and Broomhead (even though Broomhead did very well and seems to bring something valuable to us which is clean skills).
Yesterday I was underwhelmed by our forward line because I thought having the right players in there would help the rest of our structure greatly. However Reid looked very slow and unfit and Cloke didn't have a good game, it was also Elliott first game back and we tried a few options as a second small forward, none of which seemed to work particularly well. So let's persist with this and see what happens when we have a fitter forward line.
We definitely lost the game in the midfield. As individuals, they are almost all great. As a unit, they are not working well. We lose most clearances and we never seem to get into space, while being outnumbered at every stoppage or whenever the ball comes out of the pack. We overcommit to the contest, which shows good hunger for the ball but what it shows is lack of footy smarts (I can only think of Pendles and Langdon as genuinely smart footballers, the rest often second guesses themselves and takes ages to make a decision). We need to be aware of where the opposition midfield is and adjust our patterns accordingly. Easy to say of course but unfortunately this means we need to try dropping Macaffer. He's performed his role very well throughout the year but we're essentially always looking for support in the midfield and never seem to find it (we've seen many find themselves short of options yesterday, Beams, Pendles and Sidey come to mind). We should only bring him when we feel the opposition does has one single stand out midfielder that will kill us if we don't shut him down (e.g Ablett).
Outside of Pendles and Lumumba, who in our midfield is genuinely hard to tackle (Lumumba was close to BOG for us yesterday, one of the few winning his own ball)? We don't break lines with our run, we lose the clearance count most weeks and because we don't have clean foot skills we are made accountable for it. Yesterday we were out-muscled, in the bottom of packs as well as in marking contests outside of our defence which actually did pretty well considering the circumstances.
Regarding the kick ins, we have been terrible at the kick ins since... I don't even remember. But the fact that we have tried so many different set ups and the issue has bee persisting issue shows that it's actually not a tactical issue but rather an issue of players skills/confidence. We don't have players with great foot skills in our defence and hence we are very easy to lock in our defensive fifty. Basically nowadays with the congestion on the ground, teams get out of their defensive fifty by spotting a unmanned teammate very quickly and kicking it to him with accuracy. However there is always a danger involved in these kicks as most players would always have an opponent within 5-10m. What this means for us is that our players who don't have self belief in their kicking or simply don't have the skills always tend to wait for an easier opportunity that never comes.
I understand why Keeffe is kicking in because he actually is a very good kick (good technique), but his decision making is probably the biggest weakness in his game so he never makes the right decision.
PTpie
Team Captain
The reason for this is related to the season as a whole and performance in games not just a number. When we win our defence is spot on, rock solid and we concede on average 65.3 points. However when we lose we concede a whopping 97.6 points. The difference between winning and losing should equate to difference in points conceded but 6 goals?
As a point of interest the points scored in wins and losses is almost the exact opposite (97.8 in a win and 69.6 in a loss). You don't need to score 120+ every week, just more than the other team. Our structure is based on causing turnovers and rebounding (slingshotting) from those turnovers.
Another point is most of our losses have coincided with our most inexperienced backlines.
I can gather more stats but the TLDR is why do we lose so badly? - Inexperience.
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Beams and Pendlebury are our rocks now. Not suggesting any of the above should've been kept but all those together in 2010 were stars in the middle and now it's down to two.
Top call! i have been saying this for 2 years, Too many commit and don't understand when to go in and when to stay out, this is a trend and the reason why we get killed out of the contest, it is also the reason why there is no run and spread.
Those players stand flat footed and just handball the ball to each other within a meter radius trying to free up space while the opposition sags 30 to 50 meters behind the contest waiting for a pressured kick.
Happens every single week.
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Put it this way, I'm pretty confident that the doomsday sayers will end up looking pretty stupid in 3/4 years.
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I want to see what Swan has to offer when uninjured before righting him off.
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Patience, simple as that.
TradeDraft
Post-Human
But he is in the Leadership Group
Tall, agile, young, good kick, with leadership qualities, has taken some good scalps and had his development altered by a knee reco.
But yeah, sure, let's trade him for pick 34.
