Australian solar panel subsidies not smart

[Hawkamania!]

http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/solar-panel-subsidies-not-smart-german-mp/2008/05/16/1210765176525.html

AUSTRALIA is taking a wrong path by offering subsidies to install solar rooftop panels, instead of promising households high prices if they sell excess power to the grid, a leading German MP has warned. Hans Josef Fell, the Greens' energy spokesman and co-author of Germany's pathbreaking Renewable Energies Act, said renewable energy now made up 14% of Germany's electricity generation, mainly due to good prices for selling excess power.

Nice one KRudd and co.

So much for "investing" in alternative energy. This looks as if the federal government would like to keep power generation out of the hands of residents that could best be able to afford them.

I would not be surprised at all if these measures are to help energy companies control the production of green energy and help keep their profits/market protected.

 

[Qsaint]

Its the stoopid ALP Mantra, anyone earning over 100K doesn't count and should be punished

But the stoopidity in the position is this

Tha Panels cost 20K the only people who are going to waste money on them is people earning over 100K

I'd agree with it if they put a DC link out to the Geothermals instead

 

[Ripper]

Its the stoopid ALP Mantra, anyone earning over 100K doesn't count and should be punished

But the stoopidity in the position is this

Tha Panels cost 20K the only people who are going to waste money on them is people earning over 100K

I'd agree with it if they put a DC link out to the Geothermals instead

Exactly! I just heard this news on the radio and was gobsmacked.

The only conclusion one can draw is that Mr. Howard >>> Mr. Rudd on global warming.

 

[bit_pattern]

I think people are missing the point of the article. The German is saying that the subsidies were a dumb idea in the first place. and that we'd be much better served by allowing households to sell their electricity back into the grid, a decision that would have to be made by the states and a decision that that moron Brumby, in thrall of the electricity industry, recently rejected in Victoria. In my perfect world the Federal government would increase such subsidies and also use their corporations power to force the states to allow customers to sell their electricity - of course that would require a Federal government that is willing to stand up to the fossil-fuel industry, a scenario that is almost impossible to imagine in todays political climate.

 

[Ripper]

I think people are missing the point of the article. The German is saying that the subsidies were a dumb idea in the first place. and that we'd be much better served by allowing households to sell their electricity back into the grid, a decision that would have to be made by the states and a decision that that moron Brumby, in thrall of the electricity industry, recently rejected in Victoria. In my perfect world the Federal government would increase such subsidies and also use their corporations power to force the states to allow customers to sell their electricity - of course that would require a Federal government that is willing to stand up to the fossil-fuel industry, a scenario that is almost impossible to imagine in todays political climate.

He didn't say that at all. He said they don't work because they are revised every year , so there is no certainty.

The German buyback scheme is very good IMO, but has little chance on happening here as Labor appear only interested in GW where there are new taxes involved.

I will start taking GW seriously when Mr Rudd does.

 

[bit_pattern]

He didn't say that at all. He said they don't work because they are revised every year , so there is no certainty.

Then he said that tarriffs would have been a much better idea. ie. subsidies are dumb.

I will start taking GW seriously when Mr Rudd does.

Not an unreasonable sentiment, individual action is largely useless unless it is backed up by effective public policy.

 

[acker]

I agree with the philosphy of roof top solar panels

But they currently do have a big weak point which over time could be rectified.

Hail Storms.

 

[Hawkamania!]

http://www.theage.com.au/news/natio...rts-to-cut-jobs/2008/05/17/1210765260618.html

THE solar industry has started sacking some of its workers in the wake of the Federal Government's decision to strip back rebates for home solar panels. Solar businesses, in a national phone hook-up on Friday, reported that at least five people had already lost their jobs and more were expected to go this week as cancelled orders surge.
From midnight on Tuesday, a family that earns more than $100,000 a year could no longer claim the rebate of up to $8000 on a solar photovoltaic system for their home.

If the feds weren't bad enough, the Vic state government is helping make alternative energy less appealing for the general population.

 

[Qsaint]

I think people are missing the point of the article. The German is saying that the subsidies were a dumb idea in the first place. and that we'd be much better served by allowing households to sell their electricity back into the grid, a decision that would have to be made by the states and a decision that that moron Brumby, in thrall of the electricity industry, recently rejected in Victoria. In my perfect world the Federal government would increase such subsidies and also use their corporations power to force the states to allow customers to sell their electricity - of course that would require a Federal government that is willing to stand up to the fossil-fuel industry, a scenario that is almost impossible to imagine in todays political climate.

The market, well most of it down the east Coast (Perhaps SA as well now) works by spot prices every 5 minutes By far the cheapest is the Coal Generation +10% Hydro. Coal can't be turned off and runs all the time. Peak times are simplistically Morning and Dinner time. In the middle of the day there are times when all the coal capacity is not required. The power price is almost at cost then. So the panels don't do anything to reduce GG and price rise will be 10 times what the spot price is. Too make it work we would have to replace all or most of the Coal with Gas stations that can be turned on or off every 5 minutes and perhaps double the number of dams for hydro's, also replace the generators at the snowy

Victoria gets 70% odd from Coal the highest in the country its likely no renewable other than the Snowy Mountain Scheme makes any difference

 

[Qsaint]

I agree with the philosphy of roof top solar panels

But they currently do have a big weak point which over time could be rectified.

Hail Storms.

The new ones developed at UNSW and sold to the Germans for 1/2 a 10 year old Beamer cost 1/4 and aren't as fragile

 

[bit_pattern]

Victoria gets 70% odd from Coal the highest in the country its likely no renewable other than the Snowy Mountain Scheme makes any difference

Well Origin buy all of their hydro from a weir on the Murray because the Snowy is far from renewable, they actually pump water upstream in off-peak times to flood through the system in peak times and turn a profit of it. None of the Snowy electricity is properly green certified...

But that's another matter altogether because, in my perfect world, we would be minimising the amount of weirs etc on the Murray-Darling and allow the system to somehow regenerate.

In terms of alternatives to coal power if we got creative and diversified our energy sources then I have no doubt we have enough natural sources of energy to meet our needs if somebody would have the political courage to stand up and make that happen. Let's not forget, we have one of the biggest coast-lines in the world, a coast-line that is surging with huge amounts of energy every day and night of the year - and a population that lives overwhelmingly in coastal regions:

http://www.theage.com.au/news/natio...1210765260622.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1

 

[Qsaint]

Well Origin buy all of their hydro from a weir on the Murray because the Snowy is far from renewable, they actually pump water upstream in off-peak times to flood through the system in peak times and turn a profit of it. None of the Snowy electricity is properly green certified...

But that's another matter altogether because, in my perfect world, we would be minimising the amount of weirs etc on the Murray-Darling and allow the system to somehow regenerate.

You know most of the energy they buy from that weir doesn't actually get used by those who purchase it?

As for the snowy thats how the untrue market twists behavior. Most of the new Gas ones such as Qld Gas station Coal Bed Methane in the Surat basin. decide every 5 minutes depending what the price of gas is to pump into their power station or sell it to AGL. They have no interest in constant supply. Wave technology at Port Kembla is promising, Ocean generation except for the Bouys system at Port Fairy is mostly beyond us. The basis shoud be Geothermal Nuclear generation which has started in SA with Geodynamics.

As for the Green angle most renewables aren't 100% green, thats why they Hippiues want us to go back and live in caves

 

[acker]

The new ones developed at UNSW and sold to the Germans for 1/2 a 10 year old Beamer cost 1/4 and aren't as fragile

Thats interesting

I know some guy's who run solar pumps on their farms and they have been buying their panels from China, at a far less cost than the Australian ones.

 

[bit_pattern]

You know most of the energy they buy from that weir doesn't actually get used by those who purchase it?

Well, it gets fed into the grid so thereby reducing the amount of coal power they have to purchase - so there is some net benefit. I had the poor misfortune of spending six months hocking Origin's green energy over the phone, one of the more demeaning experiences I've put myself through

Wave technology at Port Kembla is promising, Ocean generation except for the Bouys system at Port Fairy is mostly beyond us. The basis shoud be Geothermal Nuclear generation which has started in SA with Geodynamics.

Why do you say that it is beyond us? I've been following Geodynamics for a few years now and think they are onto a cracking idea but hot rock technology isn't without some problems, the largest being the cost of supplying the electricity from the isolated hot rock sites to the major population centres. I would have thought that ocean generation would be attractive to Australia since our major population centres are overwhelmingly coastal. I'm definitely interested in what you see as the limitations of ocean generation.

 

[Qsaint]

Well, it gets fed into the grid so thereby reducing the amount of coal power they have to purchase - so there is some net benefit. I had the poor misfortune of spending six months hocking Origin's green energy over the phone, one of the more demeaning experiences I've put myself through

Just because its in the Grid means nothing, there is unlikely to be any net benefit in Victoria because the Coal Burning capacity is not being reduced

Why do you say that it is beyond us? I've been following Geodynamics for a few years now and think they are onto a cracking idea but hot rock technology isn't without some problems, the largest being the cost of supplying the electricity from the isolated hot rock sites to the major population centres. I would have thought that ocean generation would be attractive to Australia since our major population centres are overwhelmingly coastal. I'm definitely interested in what you see as the limitations of ocean generation.

DC Link cost a fortune but once its up it will not need a lot of maintenance

Tidal is an environment disaster, the Bouys require a large swell that is constant and is expensive because of numerous small moving units . The ocean current / Temperature Difference thing hasn't got off the drawing board

Wave Technology is OK but does not have the scale of Geothermal yet

 

[acker]

I would have thought that ocean generation would be attractive to Australia since our major population centres are overwhelmingly coastal. I'm definitely interested in what you see as the limitations of ocean generation.

You might get a close first hand look at that bit_pattern

I heard that "the rip" entering Port Phillip Bay was the front running place where it may be tried.

 

[telsor]

Well Origin buy all of their hydro from a weir on the Murray because the Snowy is far from renewable, they actually pump water upstream in off-peak times to flood through the system in peak times and turn a profit of it. None of the Snowy electricity is properly green certified...

As mentioned by another poster, coal stations can only be turned on/off over a matter of days, so in periods of low energy use, they actually generate electricity in excess of requirements.

Similarly, much of the green power ( solar, wind ) doesn't generate continually, so if we want to use this power on a large scale, we're need to store it.

If you're generating 110% of what's being used, and the excess would just be wasted otherwise, doesn't it make sense to use that excess power to pump water back uphill so it can be stored in the dams and used in hydro stations when demand increases? ( ie, use them as batteries ). True, it's not especially efficient, but if 100KWH that wouldn't have been used produces 10KWH that will, it's a gain ( and I suspect actual figures are better than 1:10 ).

True, much of that energy used in pumping came originally from coal, but I'd have thought limitinging waste is about as green as you could get.

Longer term, we need more efficient 'batteries', and things like hydrogen fuel cells have potential here, but until then, let's keep using 'waste' power to pump water uphill.

 

[telsor]

You might get a close first hand look at that bit_pattern

I heard that "the rip" entering Port Phillip Bay was the front running place where it may be tried.

Maybe not so much any more....The dredging is noticably increasing the size of the rip, so the flow pressure will be lower.

 

[bit_pattern]

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11058548&postcount=11

Turbines on the sea floor, Bass Strait and of King Island

 

[acker]

Erik Zimmerman, who owns Beyond Building, a major Victorian-based solar business, said the budget move had forced him to defer plans to hire three more staff. He has enough other business in the pipeline but, he said "we are in some form of limbo now". A few days ago he estimated his lost business at $1 million. It is now $1.8 million.
Mr Zimmerman has heard back from most of his 200 customers with solar panels on order and 50-70% in urban areas, and about 30% in rural areas, have canceled.

Not pointing the finger at the above.

But some of the profit margins relating to these Green technologies we are embracing and looking for government backing appear to be very fat.

I think the solar panels and the wind-farms may have to clean out some of the less scrupulous profiteers from their industries, before they start enjoying a bit more government support.

Currently they look about as stable as a stack of cards, because they are basing their existence on either directly or indirectly (customer rebates) by getting government money.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, people are sourcing large wattage solar panels from China and landing them here in Australia a lot cheaper than solar panels available here.

 

[Zombie Woof]

I agree with the philosphy of roof top solar panels

But they currently do have a big weak point which over time could be rectified.

Hail Storms.

Cant get it with bullet-proof glass for $20K?

 

[Zombie Woof]

Not pointing the finger at the above.

But some of the profit margins relating to these Green technologies we are embracing and looking for government backing appear to be very fat.

I think the solar panels and the wind-farms may have to clean out some of the less scrupulous profiteers from their industries, before they start enjoying a bit more government support.

Currently they look about as stable as a stack of cards, because they are basing their existence on either directly or indirectly (customer rebates) by getting government money.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, people are sourcing large wattage solar panels from China and landing them here in Australia a lot cheaper than solar panels available here.

This is obviously an answer. Maybe we can not produce cheaply here, or maybe the subsidies just helped inefficient producers to start up and stay in. You can all PISS OFF! Reminds me of the pre-80s when not-very-good manufacturers would do everything to resist tarriff reductions.

Kill them off, so talent use their advantage to get market share.

 

[bit_pattern]

This is obviously an answer. Maybe we can not produce cheaply here, or maybe the subsidies just helped inefficient producers to start up and stay in. You can all PISS OFF! Reminds me of the pre-80s when not-very-good manufacturers would do everything to resist tarriff reductions.

Kill them off, so talent use their advantage to get market share.

That's exactly the attitude that drove Australia's best-and-brightest off to Germany to develop their ground breaking and innovative solar technology... Now they are world leaders and we are buying their products.

 

[acker]

Cant get it with bullet-proof glass for $20K?

This is obviously an answer. Maybe we can not produce cheaply here, or maybe the subsidies just helped inefficient producers to start up and stay in. You can all PISS OFF! Reminds me of the pre-80s when not-very-good manufacturers would do everything to resist tarriff reductions.

Kill them off, so talent use their advantage to get market share.

That's exactly the attitude that drove Australia's best-and-brightest off to Germany to develop their ground breaking and innovative solar technology... Now they are world leaders and we are buying their products.

About 12 years ago I actualy saw a vinyl flexible (not glass) topped version at an agricultural resellers trade show in Brisbane. The unit was low wattage and being used for electric fencing, but I was the left with the impression that this was the way for solar technology to progress in the future.

Basically it was something similiar to a peice of lino, but I'm still pretty sure it will elevate itself beyond the glass solar panels sooner or later.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

This is one thing the ALP got wrong. Who else can afford solar panels for their houses except those earning over $150K?