Review Autopsy Thread vs GWS. Round 4, 2014.

[timtamWB]

One non-footy thing that really gave me the shits last night was the inane commentary that started the moment the siren ended each quarter and didn't stop until the umpire bounced the ball to start the next. The bloke knows almost nothing about footy and is a paid propagandist for GWS with tickets on himself as a media personality. The first thing he'd say (after a disparaging comment on the Dogs) was who the leading goalkickers and possession getters were ... but only for GWS. Then at half time they had some stupid and irrelevant amateur quiz show filmed in the GWS dressing room with a loud buzzer going every 10 seconds.

This is an assault on the atmosphere of the game and the opportunity for it to be a social occasion. I couldn't have a conversation with people sitting near me, not even with Mrs DW or the grandson who were sitting right next to me.

I will write to whoever the f***wits are that think this is good entertainment, but I don't expect them to change. I will seriously reconsider going to future games at Manuka, even if the Dogs are playing. You can't just turn the sound off like you can with the Fox commentators.

Did anyone else who was at the game have the same experience? Agree?

Don't worry DW, those watching on TV had inane commentary from the moment the umprie bounced the ball at the start of the quarter until the siren sounded to end that quarter, and then for the 3 after that. It was seriously amateur hour, not much footy discussion, continually getting players' names wrong.

 

[GrandBlue]

Your comment changed how the subject matter of our disagreement was defined. You weren't highlighting anything.

I'm not saying Stevens deserves the 3 Brownlow votes for yesterday's performance either. But you were saying that he's incapable of being an A-grader, or even B-grader, and accordingly does not warrant a place in our team. Once again, it feels like you're either altering your point or distancing yourself from your initial view.

I'm saying I don't think he's capable of becoming an A/B-Grader; whether or not he does remains to be seen. As of now, I'd rather see Bontempelli in the team than Koby Stevens or even Mitch Wallis.

Well then, if that's all it takes, and those players are everywhere, why can't you just point me to one other example from yesterday's game? It takes a bloody big tank to do something that stands out at AFL level. Not to be treated lightly.

Lachie Whitfield, Heath Shaw, Ryan Griffen, Stewart Crameri, Jackson Macrae of the top of my head are all work-horse players, and they're all a class above Stevens. Don't care if they replicated that one instance of gut running Stevens displayed against GWS, it doesn't make them incapable of doing so.

I'll let you take that argument up with AFL coaches, statisticians, commentators and Champion Data. I don't fancy your chances.

Ask the coaches if they were worried when Jason Blake had the ball in his hands. He consistently had high disposal efficiency, it means jack s**t.

Jordan Roughead is currently second in the competition for disposal efficiency, does he offer high quality delivery out of defence?

Is your hat on too tight, mate?

Can you not make a single argument with some smartarse provocative remark?

The knock on Dane Swan has always been his field kicking. But he's a good comparison for Stevens. He started to hit his traps at about the age Stevens is now, and only turned into a goal per game midfielder a couple of years later.

Well if kicking is his knock, then that just illustrates how far superior of a player he is, because he threads far more killer passes to team mates on a consistent basis than Stevens ever has. The reason he's considered one of the best players in the competition is because he accumulates a stack of the ball, boasts great tactical awareness and actually does damage with ball in hand. Stevens gets the ball, but he's not dangerous with it, gets tackled way too easily, too often and we have too many players like him in the team, not enough guys who can hurt the opposition.

Awareness and vision aren't just innate (except maybe for Scott West), they can be improved with experience and training. Stevens is only about 30 games into his career.

Sure, maybe he can improve, I'm just struggling to see it personally.

Staying with Swan, his teammates in the 2010 premiership side included Tyson Goldsack, Brent MacAffer and Alan Toovey. Which of them do you rate as A-graders?

All B-Graders (or Borderline C+) who played their limited roles perfectly.

 

[timtamWB]

All B-Graders (or Borderline C+) who played their roles perfectly.

I agree with the majority of this post, so I'm just going to isolate this point, as it's all I disagree with. All B- players, or C+ players, sure, but you don't think that Stevens can get to the level of Macaffer or Goldsack? Toovey is underrated so I'm not touching him, but I'd say Stevens is already on the level of a Macaffer or a Goldsack, and I think, if he keeps his attributes but improves his awareness and makes his kicking a bit more penetrating, then I think he definitely has a place in the team. But has he been in the bests so far? Not by a long shot for mine. But he's still young, and I think he'll keep improving. However I don't believe he'll be in the best 25 when we're pushing for a premiership.

 

[GrandBlue]

I agree with the majority of this post, so I'm just going to isolate this point, as it's all I disagree with. All B- players, or C+ players, sure, but you don't think that Stevens can get to the level of Macaffer or Goldsack? Toovey is underrated so I'm not touching him, but I'd say Stevens is already on the level of a Macaffer or a Goldsack, and I think, if he keeps his attributes but improves his awareness and makes his kicking a bit more penetrating, then I think he definitely has a place in the team. But has he been in the bests so far? Not by a long shot for mine. But he's still young, and I think he'll keep improving. However I don't believe he'll be in the best 25 when we're pushing for a premiership.

Macaffer & Goldsack played specific roles, where as Stevens is very much a pure midfielder.

Defensive Forwards or Third Talls/Swingmen don't necessarily have to be players of high quality in order to maximize the efficiency within their role. If the Koby Stevens of today was in that 2010 Collingwood side, he wouldn't get a game because he can't play the roles of those two aforementioned players, and as a midfielder, he's well below the likes of Pendlebury, Swan, Ball, Sidebottom, Thomas etc.

 

[timtamWB]

Macaffer & Goldsack played specific roles, where as Stevens is very much a pure midfielder.

Defensive Forwards or Third Talls/Swingmen don't necessarily have to be players of high quality in order to maximize the efficiency within their role. If the Koby Stevens of today was in that 2010 Collingwood side, he wouldn't get a game because he can't play the roles of those two aforementioned players, and as a midfielder, he's well below the likes of Pendlebury, Swan, Ball, Sidebottom, Thomas etc.

I'm still thinking he can be part of the midfield/forward rotations. The main thing holding him back is his awareness, I see him get run down or caught so many times, sometimes he'll burst through a pack but doesn't do it consistently, and he also tends to handball to a contest where the player gets wrapped up instantly. If he can fix that up then I think we'll see a huge change in him and him becoming a valuable contributer to the side.

 

[Capital_Dog]

One non-footy thing that really gave me the shits last night was the inane commentary that started the moment the siren ended each quarter and didn't stop until the umpire bounced the ball to start the next. The bloke knows almost nothing about footy and is a paid propagandist for GWS with tickets on himself as a media personality. The first thing he'd say (after a disparaging comment on the Dogs) was who the leading goalkickers and possession getters were ... but only for GWS. Then at half time they had some stupid and irrelevant amateur quiz show filmed in the GWS dressing room with a loud buzzer going every 10 seconds.

This is an assault on the atmosphere of the game and the opportunity for it to be a social occasion. I couldn't have a conversation with people sitting near me, not even with Mrs DW or the grandson who were sitting right next to me.

I will write to whoever the f***wits are that think this is good entertainment, but I don't expect them to change. I will seriously reconsider going to future games at Manuka, even if the Dogs are playing. You can't just turn the sound off like you can with the Fox commentators.

Did anyone else who was at the game have the same experience? Agree?

The inane ground presenter is Mark Parton. Long time(annoying) DJ on commercial radio. He stood for the 2008 ACT elections as the "voice of reason". For some reason he didn't get elected Your observation that he has tickets on himself is correct.

I too found the loud music or stupid drivel blaring from siren(quarter end) to siren (quarter start) was horrible. No chance to have a conversation with anyone. Should you write to the Giants, who I imagine are responsible for the home ground "experience", plse include my comments. Love going to the footy at Manuka but not under those circumstances.

 

[GrandBlue]

I'm still thinking he can be part of the midfield/forward rotations. The main thing holding him back is his awareness, I see him get run down or caught so many times, sometimes he'll burst through a pack but doesn't do it consistently, and he also tends to handball to a contest where the player gets wrapped up instantly. If he can fix that up then I think we'll see a huge change in him and him becoming a valuable contributer to the side.

Well, consistency is the key thing here. Ever since he's been at the club, I don't think he's shown enough of those positive signs on a consistent basis, so I'm pessimistic about his chances of becoming a key-player for us. Happy to be proven wrong as always.

It's a Full Rebuild in Every Bit of the Word
Give the Man the Time he Needs to get the List Right

I don't think it should take 5-7 years to rebuild a squad, no matter what the circumstances. It's even worse when you consider the fact that we're doing it at the same time as the Gold Coast & GWS, who both have significantly more talent in their squads than us.

We should be challenging for a finals spot this year, but if early signs are anything to go by, we're playing very similarly to how we were in 2012. Not good enough in my opinion.

 

[dogsofwar]

*reads all posts to this point...*

Hooray, we won! There were good points and bad points but in the end the Dogs prevailed. That's enough to be happy about until our next match I feel. Maybe I'm just simple though.

 

[BRG93]

I understand it can take a while, but is it wrong of me to expect some form of improvement? I know we've cleared a lot of the junk from our list, but our on-field performances are still too similar to 2012. We're also in a very different situation compared to those two; we have to deal with GWS & the Gold Coast.

We desperately need more leadership in this team, but it doesn't feel like we've added much of it. Look at Geelong over the last 7 years, half their team consisted of guys who could be the captain of any other club.

Can't say I agree with you in terms of us playing similarly to 2012, In 2012 our Lapses in Games where ridiculously large I think this year those lapses are slowly coming down and we are becoming more consistent and plus we are 2-2 at the moment back then we hadn't won a game yet

In terms of Leadership I can agree on that to an extent, I think there are leaders at the club but they just haven't stepped up yet but there is always room to bring in more

 

[timtamWB]

*reads all posts to this point...*

Hooray, we won! There were good points and bad points but in the end the Dogs prevailed. That's enough to be happy about until our next match I feel. Maybe I'm just simple though.

Make sure you don't get too many splinters from all that fence sitting

 

[Igloo]

I've just moved almost 100 posts. That's not happening again. This is clearly the autopsy thread from the game, NOT a thread about McCartney.

If you wish to reply to a post in here that i've missed in regard to Macca, please quote it into the correct thread.

 

[fargy]

I'm sad we lost Could have sworn watching the game we won by 27 points but after reading this thread that can't have been true.

 

[BRG93]

Good Win, On to Next Week!!
Hopefully we can fill the Cheer Squad again this week like the last 2 Home Games

Go Dogs

 

[dogsofwar]

Make sure you don't get too many splinters from all that fence sitting

Man, it's exhausting! I feel like reading through all of that was enough effort. They've done all the work for me!

But in all seriousness, I'm just glad we won. A win is a win, and as much as there were some disappointing moments in the game, I'm in no position to vent. It's futile, the club aren't going to hop on here and take my comments on board if I tell them to sack the coach etc. Plus, I trust the direction we are heading. Good things come to those who wait, and I'm a patient man.

 

[100action]

Pretty much everything above I disagree with but I love your passion mate and the time you took to respond but even I think we will Just go round and round in circles

Roughy is back coz he was no good forward or ruck

Crameri and stringer and HORRIBLE in the backline

We disagree on these but we love our club so it's all good

Crameri is not horrible in the backline, in fact he was actually pretty reliable relieving pressure with linking plays and winning critical contests in the GWS game.

 

[Bazza Bulldog]

Good Win, On to Next Week!!
Hopefully we can fill the Cheer Squad again this week like the last 2 Home Games

Go Dogs

On to next week ... I'd love to see another set of great contributions from Wood, Higgins and Williams. v GWS probably IMO the best collective effort in a game from these 3 ever (in fact maybe they haven't played together too much ... outside of rehab). Fingers crossed more of the same. They have the ability in spades to deliver what we badly need, from the age bracket we badly need it from.

 

[Norm De Guerre]

Crameri is not horrible in the backline, in fact he was actually pretty reliable relieving pressure with linking plays and winning critical contests in the GWS game.

His 'gut running' out of defence in the dying stages of last week was a little less that horrible.

 

[Misunderstood]

Good win by the Doggies last night. But one thing that has got me absolutely baffled is Jake Stringer...I've been harping on it for 3 weeks he loves the Joe the Goose in the Square or the one over the back. Drop this bloke please and learn the basics. His body language is terrible. Time to go.Higgans was very impressive as I have been most critical of him but he has been all class this year. I really think he is maturing as a player. All round great to see Jonesy start to kick the goals and deliver on his ability that we all know he has got. Hopefully we don't start as poorly as we did last night and let that rabble (Carlton) in the game early- Go Dogs and Go Macca...Woof Woof...Please Bring Bonti In

 

[Misunderstood]

Also

Good win by the Doggies last night. But one thing that has got me absolutely baffled is Jake Stringer...I've been harping on it for 3 weeks he loves the Joe the Goose in the Square or the one over the back. Drop this bloke please and learn the basics. His body language is terrible. Time to go.Higgans was very impressive as I have been most critical of him but he has been all class this year. I really think he is maturing as a player. All round great to see Jonesy start to kick the goals and deliver on his ability that we all know he has got. Hopefully we don't start as poorly as we did last night and let that rabble (Carlton) in the game early- Go Dogs and Go Macca...Woof Woof...Please Bring Bonti In

Great to see Libba not take any s**t from that GWS player that thought he would let Griff Know all about it in the 3rd quarter with his tackle....Rant Over

 

[TiAn_]

Lachie Whitfield, Heath Shaw, Ryan Griffen, Stewart Crameri, Jackson Macrae of the top of my head are all work-horse players, and they're all a class above Stevens. Don't care if they replicated that one instance of gut running Stevens displayed against GWS, it doesn't make them incapable of doing so.

Where was I saying that those players are incapable of doing that? Using your logic, anything remarkable any players does in a game is rendered not so remarkable because technically there are many other players that could do it. There's a big difference between capability and action.

Ask the coaches if they were worried when Jason Blake had the ball in his hands. He consistently had high disposal efficiency, it means jack s**t. Jordan Roughead is currently second in the competition for disposal efficiency, does he offer high quality delivery out of defence?

Jason Blake only had 23+ disposals 9 times in 219 career games. He was also a key defender and backup ruck man. So yes, his coaches probably weren't concerned about his efficiency.

Jordan Roughead's career high is 19 disposals (twice). He's also a key defender. So, as above. Now that's sorted, perhaps we should really get down to comparing apples and oranges.

Can you not make a single argument with some smartarse provocative remark?

If you go by the post you quoted, and this one, no, no I can't. But my earlier posts in this thread (and most generally) were free of 'smartarsery'.

Well if kicking is his knock, then that just illustrates how far superior of a player he is, because he threads far more killer passes to team mates on a consistent basis than Stevens ever has. The reason he's considered one of the best players in the competition is because he accumulates a stack of the ball, boasts great tactical awareness and actually does damage with ball in hand. Stevens gets the ball, but he's not dangerous with it, gets tackled way too easily, too often and we have too many players like him in the team, not enough guys who can hurt the opposition.

Sure, maybe he can improve, I'm just struggling to see it personally.

Well, consistency is the key thing here. Ever since he's been at the club, I don't think he's shown enough of those positive signs on a consistent basis, so I'm pessimistic about his chances of becoming a key-player for us. Happy to be proven wrong as always.

Swan wasn't considered one of the best players in the competition at the same age, far from it. Even now he encounters some intense (and I think unfair) scrutiny.

Regarding Stevens' improvement, unless you watched his 11 sporadic games with West Coast (I didn't), we only have last year to go on, which was his first playing week in and out. It will likely take him a couple of seasons of consistent top level footy to start hitting his potential. For a start, he's already had 3 consecutive 20 disposal games this season - he'd never even had back to back 20 disposal games in his career previously. That's a huge improvement in consistency already.

All B-Graders (or Borderline C+) who played their limited roles perfectly.

Your problem isn't really with Stevens, it's with the role Stevens plays within the team. Ergo, if Stevens played a more limited role you would be satisfied with him as a player. I don't think it's the player's fault that there's more being asked of him than you'd like, but in my view he's performing his role, however expansive or limited, just fine at the moment.

Hopefully he becomes even 80% of the player Dane Swan has been the last 5-6 years.

 

[Martyn_30_]

Disposal effeciency is just about the best stat to determine who wins or loses a game. Steven's disposal effeciency has clearly improved due to the fact he's improving as a player, who still hasn't played many games.

 

[GrandBlue]

Where was I saying that those players are incapable of doing that? Using your logic, anything remarkable any players does in a game is rendered not so remarkable because technically there are many other players that could do it. There's a big difference between capability and action.

You asked for one example, I gave you a few. Problem?

Jason Blake only had 23+ disposals 9 times in 219 career games. He was also a key defender and backup ruck man. So yes, his coaches probably weren't concerned about his efficiency.

Jordan Roughead's career high is 19 disposals (twice). He's also a key defender. So, as above. Now that's sorted, perhaps we should really get down to comparing apples and oranges.

What do total disposals have to do with anything?

Jason Blake had consistently high disposal efficiency, but never damaged the opposition. His coaches cared little for his kicking because he was instructed to dish off simple kicks to more skilled players and opposition coaches didn't care to close him down because he never hurt them.

Stevens is a different type of player, but the parallels are still there. He doesn't make any ambitious plays, and almost always goes with the easy short handball or short kick, and in the sporadic instances he has gone for more ambitious plays, he's below average in his execution.

Swan wasn't considered one of the best players in the competition at the same age, far from it. Even now he encounters some intense (and I think unfair) scrutiny.

Regarding Stevens' improvement, unless you watched his 11 sporadic games with West Coast (I didn't), we only have last year to go on, which was his first playing week in and out. It will likely take him a couple of seasons of consistent top level footy to start hitting his potential. For a start, he's already had 3 consecutive 20 disposal games this season - he'd never even had back to back 20 disposal games in his career previously. That's a huge improvement in consistency already.

Didn't necessarily say there was no hope for him, I'm just pessimistic. I also think a 23 year old 33 gamer should be giving us a better output, especially considering there are plenty of younger, less experienced players in his position (that were selected further down the draft order) that I'd rate well ahead of him. Also, I think the influence of playing AFL Games is overstated; good pre-seasons improve a player significantly more than playing AFL Games.

Could he be a late bloomer? Sure, but right now, I'd rather see Bontempelli take his (or Wallis's) spot in the team.

Your problem isn't really with Stevens, it's with the role Stevens plays within the team. Ergo, if Stevens played a more limited role you would be satisfied with him as a player. I don't think it's the player's fault that there's more being asked of him than you'd like, but in my view he's performing his role, however expansive or limited, just fine at the moment.

Hopefully he becomes even 80% of the player Dane Swan has been the last 5-6 years.

Of course it's not his fault, when did I ever say it was? Doesn't change the fact that I'd prefer a more talented player in that midfield spot he occupies.

Disposal effeciency is just about the best stat to determine who wins or loses a game. Steven's disposal effeciency has clearly improved due to the fact he's improving as a player, who still hasn't played many games.

As a team stat, maybe, but not for comparing players. Jordan Roughead is not a better kick than Brendan Goddard.

 

[dogsofwar]

You asked for one example, I gave you a few. Problem?

What do total disposals have to do with anything?

Jason Blake had consistently high disposal efficiency, but never damaged the opposition. His coaches cared little for his kicking because he was instructed to dish off simple kicks to more skilled players and opposition coaches didn't care to close him down because he never hurt them.

Stevens is a different type of player, but the parallels are still there. He doesn't make any ambitious plays, and almost always goes with the easy short handball or short kick, and in the sporadic instances he has gone for more ambitious plays, he's below average in his execution.


Didn't necessarily say there was no hope for him, I'm just pessimistic. I also think a 23 year old 33 gamer should be giving us a better output, especially considering there are plenty of younger, less experienced players in his position (that were selected further down the draft order) that I'd rate well ahead of him. Also, I think the influence of playing AFL Games is overstated; good pre-seasons improve a player significantly more than playing AFL Games.

Could he be a late bloomer? Sure, but right now, I'd rather see Bontempelli take his (or Wallis's) spot in the team.


Of course it's not his fault, when did I ever say it was? Doesn't change the fact that I'd prefer a more talented player in that midfield spot he occupies.


As a team stat, maybe, but not for comparing players. Jordan Roughead is not a better kick than Brendan Goddard.

I've seen Stevens make plenty of ambitious plays. He just gets noticed for getting caught out more often then pulling it off. It's part lack of awareness, part lack of experience. He is there to smash through packs and provide a big body, which he does pretty well IMO, and he is still improving. Not every player can be an "A or B grader". But every team needs their role players, and Stevens is growing and being groomed into his pretty well.

Also, think you're being a bit harsh on Wallis. He has proven to be a very effective stopper, and often gathers more than his opposing man - maybe not the most damaging, but again, plays a very valuable role.

Anyway, this seems like a very cyclical conversation. You have your opinions, which I think everybody can see quite clearly - and nobody can really take that away from you. But for everything you see or feel strongly about, somebody sees it differently. The beauty of opinions.

 

[Zgope1]

My point is that the contested ball stat isnt as important as getting the kick/handball ratio right your playing well it always.
we play better and look dangerous when we run spread and kick quickly, which in turn is reflected in this stat.

yep. the "contested ball" that football clubs preach isn't all tied up in the CP stat anyway. What's important are winning certain isolated contests around the ground and in important positions. The best footy example of the style that is preached by Macca is actually the Christensen mark against two to set up the goal in the grand final. Our style is set up to win those key contests, not the contested footy stat (which is inflated by team constantly fighting for the ball in their back 50 depicting no dominance at all). If you watch a lot of our close games this year and last we usually get those little wins around the ground when things are just going crazy. The Clay Smith tackle in last year's gws game also exemplifies a key win that can win you a match and more recently Easton Wood's win against Stephenson on the goal line which wouldn't even get a stat

 

[Trugo3013]

yes


BTW some interesting stats:

Contested Possession stats
L r1 125/160 wb/wce (considered a hard tackling hard bodied team (they rag dolled us)
L r2 123/127 wb/nth (lost cp to a team of questionable hardness)
W r3 127/129 wb/rich (lost cp to a tub of butter)
W r4 146/143 wb/gws (we won against a club of boys and old rejects)

Kick vs handball stats
L r1 191/204 wb/wce
L r2 186/160 wb/nth
W r3 180/133 wb/rich
W r4 190/145 wb/gws

When Bmac says "we need to take the game on" does he really mean "kick the bloody thing"?

^^^ Top work theAthenian .

Reckon we might see a sneaky graphic on AFL360 or somesuch program this week pinching that.