F-35 Joint Strike Fighter - Abbott agrees to buy more, more, more.

[Admiral Byng]

I voted yes and I still believe in my answer.

Me too.

 

[Malifice]

15 March 1973, we accept delivery of 24, working, F-111s.


And thus we got hold of one of the best and most important aircraft the Air force has ever had it's hands on.

Never met a RAAFie that didnt speak highly of the pigs. A fantastic aircraft from all reports.

 

[stormee]

Never met a RAAFie that didnt speak highly of the pigs. A fantastic aircraft from all reports.

An aircraft program that at the time was mired in the same controversy and cost overruns that we are now seeing with the F-35 (this may have been telsor 's point however I couldn't find the original post so I'll just repeat it for posterity's sake.

 

[telsor]

An aircraft program that at the time was mired in the same controversy and cost overruns that we are now seeing with the F-35 (this may have been telsor 's point however I couldn't find the original post so I'll just repeat it for posterity's sake.

That was my point. I've also pointed out elsewhere that the Typhoon had a long and involved development history too. When you're at the cutting edge, you work a few things out on the fly.

As for finding posts...See the 'up' arrow at the top of the quote (just after '<name> said:'). Click on that and it'll take you to it.

 

[Elroo]

Hey, the law says they can't, but at the same time, Congress can change laws whenever it wants.

Can't what?

 

[Elroo]

An aircraft program that at the time was mired in the same controversy and cost overruns that we are now seeing with the F-35 (this may have been [USER=1186[/B]1]telsor[/USER] 's point however I couldn't find the original post so I'll just repeat it for posterity's sake.

What is the big difference between the F111 program and the current JSF program for the RAAF?

 

[stormee]

What is the big difference between the F111 program and the current JSF program for the RAAF?

Do you already have an answer in mind or is it a serious question?

 

[Elroo]

Do you already have an answer in mind or is it a serious question?

Its not hard to understand is it?

 

[stormee]

Its not hard to understand is it?

Well I don't know.

One is a swing wing plane the other is not?

 

[Elroo]

Well I don't know.

One is a swing wing plane the other is not?

The F111 wasn't purchased to be the single fighter/bomber airframe for the RAAF as we had the 116 operational Mirage 3 with over 10 years of service to fall back upon if the F111 failed.

The JSF in comparison is to be the sole fighter/bomber airframe for the RAAF and if it fails/doesn't meet the performance KPI's we are in deeper crap that Tony Abbott ratings.

Another difference is one of the aircraft, the F111 was selected after an extensive selection process, whilst another was chosen after the PM was wined and dined by the manufacturer who bypassed the selection process.

 

[telsor]

The F111 wasn't purchased to be the single fighter/bomber airframe for the RAAF as we had the 116 operational Mirage 3 with over 10 years of service to fall back upon if the F111 failed.

The JSF in comparison is to be the sole fighter/bomber airframe for the RAAF and if it fails/doesn't meet the performance KPI's we are in deeper crap that Tony Abbott ratings.

Another difference is one of the aircraft, the F111 was selected after an extensive selection process, whilst another was chosen after the PM was wined and dined by the manufacturer who bypassed the selection process.

Extensive evaluation process for the F-111???

The Air Marshall went on a study trip, recommended we buy the A-5 'Vigilante' and got overruled by cabinet because, on paper, the TFX (which was the design name for the F-111) was likely to be better, even though it wasn't expected to be ready for the best part of a decade.

 

[stormee]

The F111 wasn't purchased to be the single fighter/bomber airframe for the RAAF as we had the 116 operational Mirage 3 with over 10 years of service to fall back upon if the F111 failed.

The JSF in comparison is to be the sole fighter/bomber airframe for the RAAF and if it fails/doesn't meet the performance KPI's we are in deeper crap that Tony Abbott ratings.

Another difference is one of the aircraft, the F111 was selected after an extensive selection process, whilst another was chosen after the PM was wined and dined by the manufacturer who bypassed the selection process.

And when the F-35 comes online we'll have a modicum of redundancy in the F-18 E/F and the growlers that have been purchased.

I don't get the haters. If Australia is making a wrong decision then so are Japan, South Korea, Israel, the UK, and every other nation that's chosen the jet as their 5th gen warplane.

 

[RUNVS]

And when the F-35 comes online we'll have a modicum of redundancy in the F-18 E/F and the growlers that have been purchased.

I don't get the haters. If Australia is making a wrong decision then so are Japan, South Korea, Israel, the UK, and every other nation that's chosen the jet as their 5th gen warplane.

and every other nation is asking the same questions we are. No one who has bought the F-35 is remotely happy with how it is going.

 

[Elroo]

Extensive evaluation process for the F-111???

The Air Marshall went on a study trip, recommended we buy the A-5 'Vigilante' and got overruled by cabinet because, on paper, the TFX (which was the design name for the F-111) was likely to be better, even though it wasn't expected to be ready for the best part of a decade.

It was called the Hancock study commissioned by the Menzies government to choose on a replacement for the Canberra Bomber.

Now back to your previous post #547, twhat law and it states what?

 

[telsor]

It was called the Hancock study commissioned by the Menzies government to choose on a replacement for the Canberra Bomber.

Now back to your previous post #547, twhat law and it states what?

Yeah, Hancock was the Air Marshall, and his 'extensive study' recommended a different plane.

#547. Can't sell the F-22 outside the US.

 

[Elroo]

And when the F-35 comes online we'll have a modicum of redundancy in the F-18 E/F and the growlers that have been purchased.

I don't get the haters. If Australia is making a wrong decision then so are Japan, South Korea, Israel, the UK, and every other nation that's chosen the jet as their 5th gen warplane.

If the F111 failed the RAAF could fall back upon the Mirage 3 which had another 20 years of active service in the RAAF after the F111 decision had been made and wasn't outdated or outgunned by any opponents in the region. Whilst the JSF will be the only airframe and if it fail the F18/Growler are already outgunned by opponents in the region right now.

If the JSF fails we have nothing to fall back to combat the operational aircraft in the region whilst with the F111 we had the Mirage 3 to fall back upon which was superior to any aicraft in the region if the F111 failed.

 

[telsor]

If the F111 failed the RAAF could fall back upon the Mirage 3 which had another 20 years of active service in the RAAF after the F111 decision had been made and wasn't outdated or outgunned by any opponents in the region. Whilst the JSF will be the only airframe and if it fail the F18/Growler are already outgunned by opponents in the region right now.

If the JSF fails we have nothing to fall back to combat the operational aircraft in the region whilst with the F111 we had the Mirage 3 to fall back upon which was superior to any aicraft in the region if the F111 failed.

F-111 and Mirage had totally different roles.

Mirage was a fighter, F-111 was a bomber (It was the replacement for the Canberra's after all).

For good or ill, these days we (and almost everyone else) tend to buy one plane for both.

 

[Elroo]

Yeah, Hancock was the Air Marshall, and his 'extensive study' recommended a different plane.

#547. Can't sell the F-22 outside the US.

The air marshals was commissioned by the Menzies government who then compared multiple aircraft, the JSF in comparions was chosen by John Howard after he was wined and dined by the manufacturer and by-passed the AIR6000 committee tasked with choosing the F18 replacement.

#547. Can't sell the F-22 outside the USA

#547 There is no law that prevents the selling of the F22 outside of the USA, the Obey law as per my previous posts only prevents the use of taxpayers money to market the aircraft to overseas purchases.

 

[Elroo]

F-111 and Mirage had totally different roles.

Mirage was a fighter, F-111 was a bomber (It was the replacement for the Canberra's after all).

For good or ill, these days we (and almost everyone else) tend to buy one plane for both.

The Mirage 3 undertook bomber roles in RAAF service throughout its history.

The F111 was chosen to not be the the sole airframe for the RAAF as we had the Mirage. It was also was picked after an extensive selection process. The JSF on the other hand was picked to be the sole airframe for fighter and bomber missions and was picked by John Howard after being wined and dined by the manufacture.

 

[telsor]

The air marshals was commissioned by the Menzies government who then compared multiple aircraft, the JSF in comparions was chosen by John Howard after he was wined and dined by the manufacturer and by-passed the AIR6000 committee tasked with choosing the F18 replacement.

Is it better to get a study then ignore it in favor of what you want, or just buy what you want anyway?

#547 There is no law that prevents the selling of the F22 outside of the USA, the Obey law as per my previous posts only prevents the use of taxpayers money to market the aircraft to overseas purchases.

amendment 295. "An amendment to prohibt the sale of F-22 aircraft to any foreign government."

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/D?d105:23:./temp/~bdqssy::

 

[telsor]

The Mirage 3 undertook bomber roles in RAAF service throughout its history.

The F111 was chosen to not be the the sole airframe for the RAAF as we had the Mirage. It was also was picked after an extensive selection process. The JSF on the other hand was picked to be the sole airframe for fighter and bomber missions and was picked by John Howard after being wined and dined by the manufacture.

We were always going to pick one airframe for both.

 

[Elroo]

Is it better to get a study then ignore it in favor of what you want, or just buy what you want anyway?

amendment 295. "An amendment to prohibt the sale of F-22 aircraft to any foreign government."

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/D?d105:23:./temp/~bdqssy::

Is it better to get a study then ignore it in favor of what you want, or just buy what you want anyway?

Good justification for John Howards bypassing the entire Air6000 F/18 replacement after being wined and dined by the JSF manufacturer.

amendment 295. "An amendment to prohibt the sale of F-22 aircraft to any foreign government."

First of all your link is broken.

Second if your broken link refers to the Obey law from 1997/98 doesn't prohibit the export of the F22, it once again prohibits the use of taxpayers money to market the F22 to overseas buyers. If the Obey Law prohibited the sale of the F22 then we wouldn't have been assessed for export under the 1st of the F22 Raptor assessment process which occurred after the Obey laws where enacted.

 

[Elroo]

We were always going to pick one airframe for both.

which the air6000 selection process was put together to chose the new aircraft until John Howard bypassed the process after he was wined and dined by the JSF manufacturer.

 

[stormee]

If the F111 failed the RAAF could fall back upon the Mirage 3 which had another 20 years of active service in the RAAF after the F111 decision had been made and wasn't outdated or outgunned by any opponents in the region. Whilst the JSF will be the only airframe and if it fail the F18/Growler are already outgunned by opponents in the region right now.

If the JSF fails we have nothing to fall back to combat the operational aircraft in the region whilst with the F111 we had the Mirage 3 to fall back upon which was superior to any aicraft in the region if the F111 failed.

But... there are no other 5th generation aircraft out there so the point is moot. Either the F-35 works or we're left with a 4.5 gen like the Super hornet anyway.

There is literally no other viable option that isn't outgunned by other future regional fighter aircraft.

 

[Elroo]

But... there are no other 5th generation aircraft out there so the point is moot. Either the F-35 works or we're left with a 4.5 gen like the Super hornet anyway.

There is literally no other viable option that isn't outgunned by other future regional fighter aircraft.

The super hornets where ordered as a stop gap due to the JSF delays and are obsolete in the near future as they are close to/if not already outgunned by the SU-30+ aircraft in the region.