Science/Environment Fukushima Daiichi nuclear disaster - fish from the pacific inedible

[blackcat]

i hear DreamWorks have greenlit a treatment for Finding Nemo II iteration, The adaptation of Daiichi Fukushima.

I can just imagine the shwag of merchandise that Disney will sell to the Japs thru McDonalz happy meals. cue Wesley Willis rocknroll

 

[DivideandMultiply]

This is the kind of thing that does have me worried.

There have been rumors and unconfirmed reports about this for a while now, one theory I have read a few times, is that it is the corium that had breached the reactor chamber hitting ground water:

http://www.japantoday.com/category/...-rising-from-fukushima-reactor-tepco#comments

TOKYO - Vapor has begun rising again from a reactor at the Fukushima nuclear power plant, more than 2 1/2 years after its core melted down, the site’s operator said Friday.

http://www.japantoday.com/category/...-rising-from-fukushima-reactor-tepco#comments

I really want to believe TEPCO's uncertain explanation, but since in the next breath they claim that they have no idea why the steam has been appearing since July and that they have stonewalled any questions on the issue till after the Olympics bid, does not give me much faith.

Likewise independent news reports are that there has been a spike in tritium levels, in samples taken from nearby groundwater.

 

[Caesar]

OP must apologise.

 

[nicky]

No, you guys should be apologising to me. I'm trying to bring you news that is being covered up and all i'm getting is hate.

 

[Bosun]

No, you guys should be apologising to me. I'm trying to bring you news that is being covered up and all i'm getting is hate.

You posted a visual claiming it was representing something that it actually doesn't. You are either being deceptive or ignorant. Pick one.

 

[DivideandMultiply]

An interesting but disturbing interview, which shows that TEPCO are simply incapable or unwilling to manage the water leaks, let alone whole site.

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2013/s3852675.htm

The problem for these fishermen is that TEPCO is seemingly powerless to stop the contamination reaching the sea and that's not the only crisis. On site are about 1,000 hastily-built tanks, some containing highly radioactive water that's being used to cool the melted reactors. Already, one has sprung a serious leak, causing the most severe accidents since the meltdowns two and a half years ago.

KAZUNARI YOSHIMURA, WATER STORAGE SPECIALIST (voiceover translation): There are 340,000 tonnes of contaminated water inside the tanks. TEPCO rushed to build the tanks out of steel, but with the salt and all the radiation, they corrode quite quickly. The rubber seals are also vulnerable to radiation and they decay fast.

MARK WILLACY: At the time of the leak, only two inspectors were checking 900 tanks at any one time, so this highly radioactive leak went unnoticed for a month.

In this video, an inspector from Japan's nuclear watchdog asks a TEPCO official if the company has been keeping records of tank inspections and radiation readings. "No," replies the TEPCO official.

KAZUNARI YOSHIMURA (voiceover translation): It's a matter of course that you install water gauges on tanks like this, so it's a mystery why TEPCO didn't install gauges so that they could easily tell how much water was inside and if there had been a leak. It's absurd.

MARK WILLACY: Atsunao Marui is one of Japan's top groundwater scientists and a member of a panel set up by TEPCO and the Government to try to find ways of managing Fukushima's growing reservoir of radioactive water. He says putting the nuclear plant on this stretch of coast in the first place was inviting disaster.

ATSUNAO MARUI, GROUNDWATER SCIENTIST (voiceover translation): A river used to flow right where the turbine and reactor buildings are now standing, so the groundwater is flowing very fast through there and it's spreading the contamination. The company should have known this could happen.

MARK WILLACY: But there are warnings the worst is yet to come because it's believed that deep beneath the nuclear plant is a massive underground pool of contaminated water which is slowly making its way towards the sea.

And now there are warnings from the head of Japan's nuclear watchdog that because room is fast running out, treated water may have to be dumped into the Pacific.

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2013/s3852675.htm

 

[Power Raid]

Whatever the reality this is not good for the nuclear industry, the environment or the standard of living we are familiar with.

Nuclear is the only way to provide enough clean power to transition to the electrics car. Either nuclear learns from their mistakes or we have to accept coal and live with fossil fuel powered cars for another century.

 

[DivideandMultiply]

Another day, another problem...

www.japantoday.com/category/national/view/new-leak-at-crippled-fukushima-nuclear-plant-tepco

Overflowing tank cause of new leak at Fukushima plant
Another day, another radioactive-water spill. The operator of the meltdown-plagued Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant says at least 430 liters spilled when workers overfilled a storage tank that lacked a gauge that could have warned them of the danger.

www.japantoday.com/category/national/view/new-leak-at-crippled-fukushima-nuclear-plant-tepco

www.japantoday.com/category/national/view/fukushima-worker-accidentally-switches-off-cooling-pumps-backup-kicks-in

NRA publicly reprimands TEPCO chief over latest problems at Fukushima
Water-processing equipment at the crippled Fukushima nuclear plant was knocked out of action again Friday morning, dealing a further blow to TEPCO’s efforts to deal with the thousands of tons of contaminated water.
TEPCO said it halted the Advanced Liquid Processing System (ALPS)—the only one of three that was in operation—early Friday following “an alert suggesting abnormality in the process”.

www.japantoday.com/category/national/view/fukushima-worker-accidentally-switches-off-cooling-pumps-backup-kicks-in

www.japantoday.com/category/national/view/fukushima-worker-accidentally-switches-off-cooling-pumps-backup-kicks-in

Fukushima worker accidentally switches off cooling pumps; backup kicks in
The Nuclear Regulation Authority said a worker conducting system inspections mistakenly pushed a button turning off power to some of the systems in the four reactor buildings at the Fukushima plant.
Plant operator Tokyo Electric Power Co (TEPCO) pours hundreds of tons of water a day over the reactors to keep them cool after a devastating earthquake and tsunami in March 2011 triggered meltdowns and hydrogen explosions.
TEPCO said water was being pumped to the No. 1, No. 2 and No. 3 reactors at the plant and pools storing spent fuel rods were being cooled.

www.japantoday.com/category/national/view/fukushima-worker-accidentally-switches-off-cooling-pumps-backup-kicks-in

 

[DivideandMultiply]

Another day, another problem...

http://rt.com/news/fukushima-leak-radiation-workers-919/

6 Fukushima workers exposed to radiation after pipe incident
Six people working at the site of crippled Fukushima power plant have been exposed to radiation after one of them mistakenly removed a pipe connected to a contaminated water treatment system. It’s the second incident at Fukushima in three days.

http://rt.com/news/fukushima-leak-radiation-workers-919/

Bloody heck. The government has to intervene. Likewise, the IAEA can't come in, inspect and whitewash the situation because they don't want the nuclear community receiving anymore bad press.

I think this is four avoidable incidents in around a week. Largely caused by corner cutting, TEPCO's incompetence and worker error and this is just the stuff making the press.

 

[Falchoon]

No, you guys should be apologising to me. I'm trying to bring you news that is being covered up and all i'm getting is hate.

There's a cover up alright, that radiation being measured in centimetres is a dead giveaway.

 

[Illinois Nazi]

There's a cover up alright, that radiation being measured in centimetres is a dead giveaway.

But it's all red and orange! It must be dangerous!

 

[Sydney Bloods]

Should speed up adaption for industrial sized commercial fish farming.

All you need to do is shift most of the production pens south.

 

[Power Raid]

An interesting but disturbing interview, which shows that TEPCO are simply incapable or unwilling to manage the water leaks, let alone whole site.

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2013/s3852675.htm

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2013/s3852675.htm

and what are the facts? a fisherman as the source; really? Surely to be relevant they would have provided the results of the fish that were tested for contamination.

surely, radioactive material can not be stored in tanks if it is releasing gamma radiation? thus the water is not radioactive or it is releasing beta or alpha particles. If it were releasing gamma, it wouldn't matter if it was leaking or not as gamma would still be emitted through the tanks.


sadly this is what journalism has come to.

For the record, there may or may not be an issue here but if this piece of journalism was printed it wouldn't rate higher than toilet paper.

 

[DivideandMultiply]

and what are the facts? a fisherman as the source; really? Surely to be relevant they would have provided the results of the fish that were tested for contamination.

surely, radioactive material can not be stored in tanks if it is releasing gamma radiation? thus the water is not radioactive or it is releasing beta or alpha particles. If it were releasing gamma, it wouldn't matter if it was leaking or not as gamma would still be emitted through the tanks.


sadly this is what journalism has come to.

For the record, there may or may not be an issue here but if this piece of journalism was printed it wouldn't rate higher than toilet paper.

May not be an issue, are you joking?

Two inspectors for 900 poorly constructed tanks, no water gauges, no written records of radiation levels... this isn't the actions of a company looking to prevent leaks, instead it is one which sees contamination as inevitable and wants no paper trail.

The serious leak mentioned in this interview is only one, in an increasingly long list of accidents and problems. The situation is way beyond TEPCO's physical ability to contain and manage, nor do I think they have the will for it.

As for the fisherman being the source, a source for what? The major leak was reported by TEPCO, which prompted the regulator to release an international alert. TEPCO and the J-Gov have been caught out very publicly on a number of occasions, either lying, or failing to release facts in a timely fashion. The fisherman added a human element, but was not the primary source of information. All the facts reported by Mark Willacy are officially acknowledged and publicly available (tank construction, 300 tonne per day leak etc.). The other major sources of information in the interview are the leaked video, Kazunari Yoshimura (water storage specialist) and Atsunao Marui a groundwater specialist working on quantifying the volumes of radiation and types of radioactive elements being released.

BTW the article and interview did not mention gamma radiation, so why bring it up?

 

[Power Raid]

May not be an issue, are you joking?

Two inspectors for 900 poorly constructed tanks, no water gauges, no written records of radiation levels... this isn't the actions of a company looking to prevent leaks, instead it is one which sees contamination as inevitable and wants no paper trail.

The serious leak mentioned in this interview is only one, in an increasingly long list of accidents and problems. The situation is way beyond TEPCO's physical ability to contain and manage, nor do I think they have the will for it.

As for the fisherman being the source, a source for what? The major leak was reported by TEPCO, which prompted the regulator to release an international alert. TEPCO and the J-Gov have been caught out very publicly on a number of occasions, either lying, or failing to release facts in a timely fashion.

BTW the article and interview did not mention gamma radiation, so why bring it up?

It kind of important when you are talking about radioactive material and a leak. So what was leaked? water or radio active material?

how radioactive is it given it is kept in steel tanks on the surface? If it is emitting alpha then it is no more harmful as a fire detector in your house. If its gamma, whether it leaked or not is not an issue as steel would not contain gamma.


All I am saying, is the article was full of words but no meaningful facts.

 

[Power Raid]

May not be an issue, are you joking?

Two inspectors for 900 poorly constructed tanks, no water gauges, no written records of radiation levels... this isn't the actions of a company looking to prevent leaks, instead it is one which sees contamination as inevitable and wants no paper trail.

The serious leak mentioned in this interview is only one, in an increasingly long list of accidents and problems. The situation is way beyond TEPCO's physical ability to contain and manage, nor do I think they have the will for it.

As for the fisherman being the source, a source for what? The major leak was reported by TEPCO, which prompted the regulator to release an international alert. TEPCO and the J-Gov have been caught out very publicly on a number of occasions, either lying, or failing to release facts in a timely fashion.

BTW the article and interview did not mention gamma radiation, so why bring it up?

how hard would it be to provide the report of the fish that were tested to support the claims and provide a measurement for the issue?

or is it too hard to do journalism these days?

 

[Power Raid]

I'll do the journalists job for them:

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/20...fukushima-after-radiation-tests/#.UlVnqRCcdw4

"Of the 100 fish and seafood products tested, 95 were clear of radioactive material, with the other five containing less than 1/10 of the limit, the federation said."


balanced out with another group providing estimates but no facts:

http://canadaam.ctvnews.ca/report-r...t-radiation-levels-in-japanese-fish-1.1486514

 

[DivideandMultiply]

It kind of important when you are talking about radioactive material and a leak. So what was leaked? water or radio active material?

how radioactive is it given it is kept in steel tanks on the surface? If it is emitting alpha then it is no more harmful as a fire detector in your house. If its gamma, whether it leaked or not is not an issue as steel would not contain gamma.


All I am saying, is the article was full of words but no meaningful facts.

No, what is important is identifying the volumes and types of isotopes being released. Regardless of whether particles are alpha or beta emitters, what matters is whether they enter the atmosphere, soil, groundwater or ocean.

If we are talking about vaporised water from the reactor chamber, then the contaminated material can spread on prevailing winds. If it enters the soil or groundwater it is a) a risk of eventually contaminating the aquifer, b) in danger of being dispersed which leads to c) being a risk of entering the food chain. Likewise this is why spillage into the ocean is such a concern, due to it entering the food chain and the principle of bio-magnification.

Lastly, it is a publicly acknowledged fact those tanks store contaminated water. This isn't some random theory, it is their stated purpose. The situation is so dire that they have already floated the idea that they may need to begin pumping radioactive water into the ocean at a future date (outside of the current leak) because of the very limited capacity above ground storage on site offers.

 

[DivideandMultiply]

I'll do the journalists job for them:

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/20...fukushima-after-radiation-tests/#.UlVnqRCcdw4

"Of the 100 fish and seafood products tested, 95 were clear of radioactive material, with the other five containing less than 1/10 of the limit, the federation said."


balanced out with another group providing estimates but no facts:

http://canadaam.ctvnews.ca/report-r...t-radiation-levels-in-japanese-fish-1.1486514

How does this contradict the contents of the article?

All that it shows is that radiation levels are yet to concentrate in that level of the food chain, to a significant degree at that particular stretch of water.

No one is disputing the leak of radioactive water, in fact TEPCO and the government were the ones who announced it.

 

[DivideandMultiply]

how hard would it be to provide the report of the fish that were tested to support the claims and provide a measurement for the issue?

or is it too hard to do journalism these days?

To support what claims?

No one in the piece claims that the fish contain unsafe levels of radioactive material, the issue for the fisherman was the government enforced bans on fishing due to the leaks.

All of the information on the leaks is sourced directly from TEPCO and the J-Gov.

As for contamination of the food chain, based on historical events and data it can take months or years for radioactive isotopes to accumulate in dangerous levels, but that does not decrease the problem, it only delays it.

 

[Power Raid]

No, what is important is identifying the volumes and types of isotopes being released. Regardless of whether particles are alpha or beta emitters, what matters is whether they enter the atmosphere, soil, groundwater or ocean.

If we are talking about vaporised water from the reactor chamber, then the contaminated material can spread on prevailing winds. If it enters the soil or groundwater it is a) a risk of eventually contaminating the aquifer, b) in danger of being dispersed which leads to c) being a risk of entering the food chain. Likewise this is why spillage into the ocean is such a concern, due to it entering the food chain and the principle of bio-magnification.

Lastly, it is a publicly acknowledged fact those tanks store contaminated water. This isn't some random theory, it is their stated purpose. The situation is so dire that they have already floated the idea that they may need to begin pumping radioactive water into the ocean at a future date (outside of the current leak) because of the very limited capacity above ground storage on site offers.

and what happens to uranium deposits if they are not mined?

the same thing, they decay forming isotopes and spread through the ground water. In fact that is both how they form and how they disperse.


I am not saying Fukushima is good but we need to keep perspective here.

 

[DivideandMultiply]

and what happens to uranium deposits if they are not mined?

the same thing, they decay forming isotopes and spread through the ground water. In fact that is both how they form and how they disperse.

What, in remote regional Australia, as opposed to above the aquifer that supplies water to one of the most densely populated places on earth.

Likewise, fission products, or waste products are often very different to those released very slowly due to natural decay. What is of concern is those known to have a serious and deleterious effect on human health.

I am not sure what perspective you are aiming for, but i think you misunderstand how serious the situation actually is.

 

[Tas]

and what happens to uranium deposits if they are not mined?

the same thing, they decay forming isotopes and spread through the ground water. In fact that is both how they form and how they disperse.


I am not saying Fukushima is good but we need to keep perspective here.

It is dangerous when not in a concentrated/processed form and especially not dangerous when fission has been artificially induced.

For every cubic meter of sea water there is about 3.3mg of uranium, probably due to erosion, but because it is so diluted that level isn't harmful to people, it is only the decay which is extremely low compared to the radiation generated by fission.

The difference between uranium that is natural found and uranium that has been artificially induced into fission is massive because the neutron fired into the refined uranium-235 agitates the uranium into uranium-236 which starts the chain reaction of splitting 3 neutrons and those collide with more and it releases a lot of energy and a lot of radiation, vastly more than uranium-235 which is decaying.

You have tons and tons of uranium where the control rods (made of material like carbon which absorb neutrons) which literally melt when it gets too hot, most meltdowns occur due to cooling failure. Even in melted form the whole thing turns into a massive over-heated blob that burns through any type of containment and they usually dump tons of water mixed with boric acid (which absorbs neutrons) into the breach to try and cool the blob and slow down the fission process.

Best way is to entomb it, because it will eat through the bottom of the ground until it gets to a point it will cool off deep in the earth, not very deep (ie wont burn through to the other side of the planet) but with Fukushima, hilariously was built in the worst location to build a reactor because directly there is underground water below Fukushima which comes from the mountains and goes out to sea so this blob will unlikely heat up enough to penetrate down far enough, it will just sit at the bottom of this subterranean river canal and just pump out massive amounts of radiation both into the ocean and out as steam which blow all over the northern hemisphere.

Lucky for us the wind from North and South do not mix so we will avoid the worst of the radiation, but some of these isotopes being pumped out have a half life in the hundreds to thousands of years.

Uranium in the process of fusion is vastly deadlier than normal uranium.

 

[Power Raid]

It is dangerous when not in a concentrated/processed form and especially not dangerous when fission has been artificially induced.

For every cubic meter of sea water there is about 3.3mg of uranium, probably due to erosion, but because it is so diluted that level isn't harmful to people, it is only the decay which is extremely low compared to the radiation generated by fission.

The difference between uranium that is natural found and uranium that has been artificially induced into fission is massive because the neutron fired into the refined uranium-235 agitates the uranium into uranium-236 which starts the chain reaction of splitting 3 neutrons and those collide with more and it releases a lot of energy and a lot of radiation, vastly more than uranium-235 which is decaying.

You have tons and tons of uranium where the control rods (made of material like carbon which absorb neutrons) which literally melt when it gets too hot, most meltdowns occur due to cooling failure. Even in melted form the whole thing turns into a massive over-heated blob that burns through any type of containment and they usually dump tons of water mixed with boric acid (which absorbs neutrons) into the breach to try and cool the blob and slow down the fission process.

Best way is to entomb it, because it will eat through the bottom of the ground until it gets to a point it will cool off deep in the earth, not very deep (ie wont burn through to the other side of the planet) but with Fukushima, hilariously was built in the worst location to build a reactor because directly there is underground water below Fukushima which comes from the mountains and goes out to sea so this blob will unlikely heat up enough to penetrate down far enough, it will just sit at the bottom of this subterranean river canal and just pump out massive amounts of radiation both into the ocean and out as steam which blow all over the northern hemisphere.

Lucky for us the wind from North and South do not mix so we will avoid the worst of the radiation, but some of these isotopes being pumped out have a half life in the hundreds to thousands of years.

Uranium in the process of fusion is vastly deadlier than normal uranium.

in fact uranium, even concentrated uranium, is safe unless you smoke

 

[Tas]

in fact uranium, even concentrated uranium, is safe unless you smoke

In a small enough dose generally nothing will kill you.