Jewish Peoples and Israel - Are They Hypocrites???

[MaddAdam]

Gaza phosporous and tactics based on Fallujah. Or, tactics me subsituting, cover. If the Yanks do it in 2004. We do it in Southern Lebanon, and then we do it in Gaza. But as if the Israelis need cover or justification, just like the Yanks. No one will tell them what to do.

My point, Kerry O'Brien or whomever introduced the first lines in the actual piece, not the piece to camera from his chair <kerry>, who talked about children arrested middle of night, door kicked in. Well, that is all Afghanistan, and we are balls deep in this s**t. This hurt the piece for me, but eh, they will give it a Walkley <eyesroll>

Agreed on the principle of "lowering the bar" as in "Well, they did it too miss!"

For mine the really interesting one on that is the smashing of the Tamil Tigers. China and Israel were the key backers of the SLA there, China providing the heavy lifting and weapons and Israel the guidance.

China got a deep water port out of it. Why did Israel send drones and advisors and upgrade their command and control etc etc, right down to the last moment.

What benefit could Israel have for setting a precedent whereby hundreds of thousands of civilians are pushed ever further against the sea, with their "crazed terrorist suicide bomber employing leadership" being given no opportunity to surrender until the destruction of that organisation and the mini statelet it occupied was utterly complete?

Just wondering.

 

[blackcat]

Agreed on the principle of "lowering the bar" as in "Well, they did it too miss!"

For mine the really interesting one on that is the smashing of the Tamil Tigers. China and Israel were the key backers of the SLA there, China providing the heavy lifting and weapons and Israel the guidance.

China got a deep water port out of it. Why did Israel send drones and advisors and upgrade their command and control etc etc, right down to the last moment.

and Russia like their Syria port in Tartus, not the Nintendo game http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_naval_facility_in_Tartus

What benefit could Israel have for setting a precedent whereby hundreds of thousands of civilians are pushed ever further against the sea, with their "crazed terrorist suicide bomber employing leadership" being given no opportunity to surrender until the destruction of that organisation and the mini statelet it occupied was utterly complete?

Just wondering.

tangent theory that the crazies usually on the right, can pull the centre from equilibrium, to a new acceptable equilibrium which leans right. Not about a Koch or Bernardi or Grover Norqvist taking reins, but bending them

 

[JoondalupJ]

the first couple of sentences posed the non-hypothetical hypothetical: "what would you do if children were woken and carted off in the middle of the night"... may even have been Kerrie's intro.

well, we do this, and the Yanks do this, in Aruzgan and Afghanistan. And I think the Yanks had form in Iraq.

So that was a little tough to imbibe, that BS when it is pretty hypocritical. How could the journo, might have been Kerrie/Kerry, when they dont ask the "diggers" or the Yanks the same qu.

My caveat: we/Yanks, may have learnt the MO / terms ov engagement from the Israelis.

But then, the Israeli's learnt their terms of engagement and white phosphorous in Gaza and cluster bombing in Lebanon from the Yanks in Fallujah. MaddAdam may correct me on my chronology. Powers will do, what powerful does.

Just making a point of what it looked like , regarding this argument of what a nazi activity may look like. When looking at the thievery done in this part of the world and looking at why and how, it irks me something terrible and of course the term hypocrite flys around , in my head anyway.
All humans and powers do bad things , this is just what was done to Jews in Germany, and else where . Doesn't it strike you as strange in the light of history that this "so" persecuted people become as bad a persecutor as what has given them sympathy after 1945. My whole argument is about that , these people behave like nationalistic thugs and they stole the bloody land of Palestine. I guess a reckoning may be in store for these Israeli over lords when the kids grow up and never forget. Then its the rest of the bloody world that has to put up with the repayment.

 

[blackcat]

All humans and powers do bad things , this is just what was done to Jews in Germany, and else where . Doesn't it strike you as strange in the light of history that this "so" persecuted people become as bad a persecutor as what has given them sympathy after 1945. My whole argument is about that , these people behave like nationalistic thugs and they stole the bloody land of Palestine. I guess a reckoning may be in store for these Israeli over lords when the kids grow up and never forget. Then its the rest of the bloody world that has to put up with the repayment.

actually, it puts into stark relief what happened to jews as a marginalised religion and people. If they were to count the pogroms committed against jews in central and eastern europe* with the same measurement of palestine, then jews qua jews, did just as humans do to minority sects in lands where religious rule prevails. When might, when power, is in the hands of one sect, it will wield it with little sympathy to the foreign sect. the pogroms on the palestinians are profuse, and there is only a minority of people who recognise it for what it is. And apart from a few propaganda posts by some members batting for the tribe, i have been a pretty staunch defender of israel in this thread. and potted the yanks, and the ADF (Aus Defense Force).

*plus germany in C20, not forgetting that jews were forboten from the British Isles til about the C17,

 

[Piers4Life]

That once again mate , is not the point. The point is that Israel is a stolen state, by force. Now if your house is taken over without your control and the invading house dweller says your welcome to live here still but we get the giant screen TV and if you complain that your allowed, only, to use the bathroom after the new family you'll get thumped or thrown out, well ,you may feel that your still in the house, but your home is gone.
That is why Israel as a state, is illegal and morally wrong. Doesn't matter if their Jews or Martians ITS WRONG mate its criminal. Their self righteousness "we are the victims of the planet " is flabbergasting.

I guess we can call Australia are stolen state, too.

 

[JoondalupJ]

I guess we can call Australia are stolen state, too.

Absolutely. But no hypocrisy. We weren't blaming the Romans for invading our island for 300 to 400 years commiting atrocities by the hundred thousands , to gain world sympathy and then steal someone's land under false pretences. Nup, we came invaded that's that. No bullshit .The other set up we're talking about, is doing the same evil as someone did to them before, but call it different . If your an invader , well, your an invader and a conqueror, if you commit thievery and atrocities then say its really our land and we can do what we like because god said we could , when its not, then you are an a-hole operating as a country, overlording it against people who really have no way to fight back. Four Corners the other night what was that? 1934, oops sorry 2014.Yes that was it.

 

[JoondalupJ]

actually, it puts into stark relief what happened to jews as a marginalised religion and people. If they were to count the pogroms committed against jews in central and eastern europe* with the same measurement of palestine, then jews qua jews, did just as humans do to minority sects in lands where religious rule prevails. When might, when power, is in the hands of one sect, it will wield it with little sympathy to the foreign sect. the pogroms on the palestinians are profuse, and there is only a minority of people who recognise it for what it is. And apart from a few propaganda posts by some members batting for the tribe, i have been a pretty staunch defender of israel in this thread. and potted the yanks, and the ADF (Aus Defense Force).

*plus germany in C20, not forgetting that jews were forboten from the British Isles til about the C17,

Every answer can be totally correct , it doesn't excuse the Israeli criminality of stealing under the guise of "I am righteous, and deserve this part of the world".
They deserve not one inch as sovereign land because they are Jews. If they are citizens of Palestine that would be better. But no they just use military might to claim the bullshit they claim . Now if they were so right and deserving why would they be killing and stealing in a land they say belongs to them. Surely they wouldn't have to hey? Well of course that way of looking at it is bullshit as well. Fact is IT ISN'T THEIR LAND ANYMORE.
I actually couldn't really care about Israel or the Palestinians as a personal thing . For me fairness and compromise go with living, most humans can't do it though and the Jewish Zionists were always going to do this to Palestine. Its still frigging WRONG. It will never end , never end , these bastards will kill each other for another thousand years, as the middle east and more southern parts of Africa seem to do constantly. Me, I would like to never hear of these killing fields around the planet
ever at all. But we get slammed with the s**t people do to each other every day. Like I've said, being born is a bloody dangerous thing to do.

 

[blackcat]

being born is a bloody dangerous thing to do.

will quote this line when need to invoke the absurd.

/imitation is the sincerest form of flattery

 

[Roylion]

Hey Roylion did you happen to watch Four Corners,

Yes I did. A couple of times.

Isreali soldiers are not just cowards, they look like nazis to me.

This is hyperbole. I certainly don't condone the detaining of children. However a number of countries engage in the practice for various reasons, so if you are going to refer to the Israelis as Nazis, please extend the same label to Bahrain, North Korea, Britain, Mali, Chad, Yemen, Congo, Libya, Sudan, Malaysia, Australia and the US (US forces have detained hundreds of children in Afghanistan and thousands of children in Iraq since 2003. In 2008 the US held 513 Iraqi children as “imperative threats to security.”). And there are plenty of others as well.

Chasing children for interrogation and threats, and then a godamned theiving settler tries to excuse it.

An extremist makes a provocative statement on camera. No other country, religion or people has those do they?

Sorry man this is a rotten state inside , and no one really knows how rotten, but I think we're starting to find out. Enjoy your next holiday there mate , and have a think occasionally.

Have you actually been to Israel? The West Bank? Ramallah? Bethlehem? Hebron? I've seen both sides and I've done plenty of thinking and observing on the issue. There's faults on both sides. Both sides engage in activities that in my view are ultimately futile and short-sighted.

For the record I support a two-state solution as do many Israelis and Palestinians. However there are number of sticking points including:
i. control and access to the Temple Mount and the status of East Jerusalem,
ii. the proposed border between the two states (Israel considers a return to the pre-1967 borders to be indefensible. Israel doesn't want to risk the West Bank becoming like the Gaza Strip in terms of smuggling arms, rocket attacks on southern Israel etc.)
iii. access to the water of the Jordan River,
iv. The issue of the return of Palestinian refugees

Its systematic fear and violence , they create their own collaborators, wow, whose that sound like?

Oh please. Any equating what is happening in Israel and the West Bank to the activities of the Nazis is exaggeration on your part.

 

[Boston tiger]

Weren't the Jews once terrorists when England were in control of that part of the country. Not being anti anything but funny how things change.

 

[JoondalupJ]

Yes I did. A couple of times.



This is hyperbole. I certainly don't condone the detaining of children. However a number of countries engage in the practice for various reasons, so if you are going to refer to the Israelis as Nazis, please extend the same label to Bahrain, North Korea, Britain, Mali, Chad, Yemen, Congo, Libya, Sudan, Malaysia, Australia and the US (US forces have detained hundreds of children in Afghanistan and thousands of children in Iraq since 2003. In 2008 the US held 513 Iraqi children as “imperative threats to security.”). And there are plenty of others as well.



An extremist makes a provocative statement on camera. No other country, religion or people has those do they?



Have you actually been to Israel? The West Bank? Ramallah? Bethlehem? Hebron? I've seen both sides and I've done plenty of thinking and observing on the issue. There's faults on both sides. Both sides engage in activities that in my view are ultimately futile and short-sighted.

For the record I support a two-state solution as do many Israelis and Palestinians. However there are number of sticking points including:
i. control and access to the Temple Mount and the status of East Jerusalem,
ii. the proposed border between the two states (Israel considers a return to the pre-1967 borders to be indefensible. Israel doesn't want to risk the West Bank becoming like the Gaza Strip in terms of smuggling arms, rocket attacks on southern Israel etc.)
iii. access to the water of the Jordan River,
iv. The issue of the return of Palestinian refugees



Oh please. Any equating what is happening in Israel and the West Bank to the activities of the Nazis is exaggeration on your part.

Changes nothing mate. Israel is a stolen state. Unfortunately whether your an expert and bipartisan in your feelings. Its still a stolen by force state. Its still wrong and you can quote a million times and a million countries that commit the hounding and torture and fear mongering in kids, but you can't change the fact that its done on a lie. That god gave them the right. That's just wrong. They have no right , they are in someone else's land and they shouldn't be.
See it as you please , thats your choice , I know what I see and you may be so close up to see good and bad from both sides , that is irrelevant to what I'm saying. They are "state" under false pretences, its bloody simple. And the hatred and death that has created , shits me to tears. And effects the world at large , can't be blind forever , but there probably isn't an answer, they 'll all kill each other til the cows come home, I guess. But they do look a bit storm trooperish hey??
Except some sound like Americans. Some of that lot of new settlers are a bit that way, there's a thought

 

[JoondalupJ]

Yes I did. A couple of times.



This is hyperbole. I certainly don't condone the detaining of children. However a number of countries engage in the practice for various reasons, so if you are going to refer to the Israelis as Nazis, please extend the same label to Bahrain, North Korea, Britain, Mali, Chad, Yemen, Congo, Libya, Sudan, Malaysia, Australia and the US (US forces have detained hundreds of children in Afghanistan and thousands of children in Iraq since 2003. In 2008 the US held 513 Iraqi children as “imperative threats to security.”). And there are plenty of others as well.



An extremist makes a provocative statement on camera. No other country, religion or people has those do they?



Have you actually been to Israel? The West Bank? Ramallah? Bethlehem? Hebron? I've seen both sides and I've done plenty of thinking and observing on the issue. There's faults on both sides. Both sides engage in activities that in my view are ultimately futile and short-sighted.

For the record I support a two-state solution as do many Israelis and Palestinians. However there are number of sticking points including:
i. control and access to the Temple Mount and the status of East Jerusalem,
ii. the proposed border between the two states (Israel considers a return to the pre-1967 borders to be indefensible. Israel doesn't want to risk the West Bank becoming like the Gaza Strip in terms of smuggling arms, rocket attacks on southern Israel etc.)
iii. access to the water of the Jordan River,
iv. The issue of the return of Palestinian refugees



Oh please. Any equating what is happening in Israel and the West Bank to the activities of the Nazis is exaggeration on your part.

Changes nothing mate. Israel is a stolen state. Unfortunately whether your an expert and bipartisan in your feelings. Its still a stolen, by force, state. Its still wrong and you can quote a million times and a million countries that commit the hounding and torture and fear mongering in kids, but you can't change the fact that this is done on a lie. That god gave them the right. That's just wrong. They have no right , they are in someone else's land and they shouldn't be.
See it as you please , that's your choice , I know what I see and you may be so close up to see good and bad from both sides , that is irrelevant to what I'm saying. They are a "state" under false pretences, its bloody simple. And the hatred and death that has created , shits me to tears. And effects the world at large , can't be blind forever , but there probably isn't an answer, they 'll all kill each other til the cows come home, I guess. But they do look a bit storm trooperish hey??
Except some sound like Americans. Some of that lot of new settlers are a bit that way, there's a thought

 

[Boston tiger]

Changes nothing mate. Israel is a stolen state. Unfortunately whether your an expert and bipartisan in your feelings. Its still a stolen, by force, state. Its still wrong and you can quote a million times and a million countries that commit the hounding and torture and fear mongering in kids, but you can't change the fact that this is done on a lie. That god gave them the right. That's just wrong. They have no right , they are in someone else's land and they shouldn't be.
See it as you please , that's your choice , I know what I see and you may be so close up to see good and bad from both sides , that is irrelevant to what I'm saying. They are a "state" under false pretences, its bloody simple. And the hatred and death that has created , shits me to tears. And effects the world at large , can't be blind forever , but there probably isn't an answer, they 'll all kill each other til the cows come home, I guess. But they do look a bit storm trooperish hey??
Except some sound like Americans. Some of that lot of new settlers are a bit that way, there's a thought

I know where you are coming from but just because they had 7 million or so put through gas chambers doesn't mean they can't act like arseholes like everyone else.

 

[blackcat]

Yes I did. A couple of times.



This is hyperbole. I certainly don't condone the detaining of children. However a number of countries engage in the practice for various reasons, so if you are going to refer to the Israelis as Nazis, please extend the same label to Bahrain, North Korea, Britain, Mali, Chad, Yemen, Congo, Libya, Sudan, Malaysia, Australia and the US (US forces have detained hundreds of children in Afghanistan and thousands of children in Iraq since 2003. In 2008 the US held 513 Iraqi children as “imperative threats to security.”). And there are plenty of others as well.



An extremist makes a provocative statement on camera. No other country, religion or people has those do they?



Have you actually been to Israel? The West Bank? Ramallah? Bethlehem? Hebron? I've seen both sides and I've done plenty of thinking and observing on the issue. There's faults on both sides. Both sides engage in activities that in my view are ultimately futile and short-sighted.

For the record I support a two-state solution as do many Israelis and Palestinians. However there are number of sticking points including:
i. control and access to the Temple Mount and the status of East Jerusalem,
ii. the proposed border between the two states (Israel considers a return to the pre-1967 borders to be indefensible. Israel doesn't want to risk the West Bank becoming like the Gaza Strip in terms of smuggling arms, rocket attacks on southern Israel etc.)
iii. access to the water of the Jordan River,
iv. The issue of the return of Palestinian refugees



Oh please. Any equating what is happening in Israel and the West Bank to the activities of the Nazis is exaggeration on your part.

good post. re: sticking points, Finkelstein (in a sober moment!!! yes, when polemics are dropped, even he can have them) in a sober moment, he actually outilines why it really is not complicated. It is clear from Arik Sharon he never wanted the other state, nor did Meir, or however you spell it, nor did Bibi, he told a Telegraph (London blueblood tory paper) foreign correspondent at a dinner party back in late 70s that there was never going to be a state for the Pals. Yeah, that was a young 20 something Bibi, talking tough. The foreign correspondent went on to become the editor of the paper. I dont have the link, but it was in the Guardian "comment is free" section. An op-ed article which had responses in blog format for the public.

But good post. I dont disagree with the^ you replied with

 

[blackcat]

I know where you are coming from but just because they had 7 million or so put through gas chambers doesn't mean they can't act like arseholes like everyone else.

States act like arseholes and enable/legitimise behaviour. We do the midnight raids in Uruzgan province in Afghan too fa chissakes (sic).

 

[blackcat]

States act like arseholes and enable/legitimise behaviour. We do the midnight raids in Uruzgan province in Afghan too fa chissakes (sic).

Adam Smith
All for ourselves, and nothing for other people, seems, in every age of the world, to have been the vile maxim of the masters of mankind.

 

[evo]

Adam Smith
All for ourselves, and nothing for other people, seems, in every age of the world, to have been the vile maxim of the masters of mankind.

If that is your take home message from smith you should read him again mate.

To feel much for others and little for ourselves; to restrain our selfishness and exercise our benevolent affections, constitute the perfection of human nature.

No society can surely be flourishing and happy, of which the far greater part of the members are poor and miserable.

etc

 

[JoondalupJ]

If that is your take home message from smith you should read him again mate.





etc

You know folks. There is no hope for human kind. We get on here, and argue about stuff that's happened in the history of the human being.

Yet there is no answer in the foreseeable future , because of human nature, greed , hatred , has been around ever since the first roaming ancient hunter came over a hill and saw other critters that looked like him taking food in his territory. Some friendships must have been made , but on the whole the dirty violent human learnt what he/she really was. Now there are nearly 7 billion of us and each and every one of us is a killer, a coward puncher , a night raider on children , a follower of some smart arse that can make money for you. A follower of politics in each area that looks after its own advantage but never looks after the people properly.

We are not a tribe anymore in a rich country like Australia our motor industry falls over , not because it has no hope but because government says to the industry , bale yourself out , and the industry with all its billions says go to hell we aint got the money.. Here is a great example of the human condition gov pretending idealogy and saying companies have to look after themselves , and the industry saying it can't afford to when actually it is a pee in the ocean to help out their own industry. Government is there for the people, any one know that? some pollies sure don't.

Point being, they could both help out but they won't, and people lose jobs and society suffers , we in Aus, we all, could have it all.

So here we are argueing about the "bleeding" middle east when we can't even be fair to our own kind. And when our hunters sail over the horizon and see another
tribe looking for help , we turn them around , because as nice as we sound , we are lousy greedy bastards too. But I'm as bad , I don't want refugees from all over the world screwing my culture up, in Australia. But I'm a human too. So, I, like all of us have an excuse to be a bastard.

 

[blackcat]

If that is your take home message from smith you should read him again mate.





etc

it was confirmation bias wrt the point i was making. smith happened to be founf in confirmation bias appeal to authority.

 

[blackcat]

We are not a tribe anymore in a rich country like Australia our motor industry falls over , not because it has no hope but because government says to the industry , bale yourself out , and the industry with all its billions says go to hell we aint got the money..

comparative advantage and economies of scale. Better throwing the money at ANU and Parkville to build world class research institutions like they have in Massachusetts.

In twenty years, the Koreans wont be building the cars neither. From world leader to scrapheap. It will head to some other Asian or subcontinent domicile that has equivalent scale but less input cost base. #Schumpeter

And I dont really believe in throwing money at Melbourne or ANU neither. Just on a opportunity cost counter factual.

and the industry saying it can't afford to when actually it is a pee in the ocean to help out their own industry

= zero sum. industry sells the same cars if it can produce the Camry off-shore at 10k (including the inbound shipping) v on-shore at 15k. That is a significant margin if you are moving 300thousand Camry(s) a year. The industry aint a charity. If there is charity endowments, expedience trumps charity for gov'ts

 

[JoondalupJ]

comparative advantage and economies of scale. Better throwing the money at ANU and Parkville to build world class research institutions like they have in Massachusetts.

In twenty years, the Koreans wont be building the cars neither. From world leader to scrapheap. It will head to some other Asian or subcontinent domicile that has equivalent scale but less input cost base. #Schumpeter

And I dont really believe in throwing money at Melbourne or ANU neither. Just on a opportunity cost counter factual.

= zero sum. industry sells the same cars if it can produce the Camry off-shore at 10k (including the inbound shipping) v on-shore at 15k. That is a significant margin if you are moving 300thousand Camry(s) a year. The industry aint a charity. If there is charity endowments, expedience trumps charity for gov'ts

I'm really talking about the base of what's right and what's not for the human population of a country, I guess I mean a country or a nation rather than what we get called now, an ECONOMY.
We could in my scenario go back wards where no one had anything to do because business /industry did not exist and we could all go stark raving insane , with 7 billion Luddites' roaming the planet.

I'm not saying the world can survive without business, and enterprise and I am not that stupid that I don't know that profit is a big circle that makes people spend.

What I am saying, is that in the world of conspicuous consumption some of the sellers are profiteering, racketeering and pirateering, just joking of course.
But I was tyring to point out that there is so uch happens in our world by industry and government that doesn't give a s**t about Mr Average , who actually is the fodder for money making.

I just meant that government is supposed to put its people first priority no matter what. Its preety simple that observing of the fools running this place that thta very rarely happens , abnd we are all pretty comfortabl here , God knows what poor countries are like. Well he /she /it obviously doesn't know. Ha ha.

 

[blackcat]

I'm really talking about the base of what's right and what's not for the human population of a country, I guess I mean a country or a nation rather than what we get called now, an ECONOMY.
We could in my scenario go back wards where no one had anything to do because business /industry did not exist and we could all go stark raving insane , with 7 billion Luddites' roaming the planet.

I'm not saying the world can survive without business, and enterprise and I am not that stupid that I don't know that profit is a big circle that makes people spend.

What I am saying, is that in the world of conspicuous consumption some of the sellers are profiteering, racketeering and pirateering, just joking of course.
But I was tyring to point out that there is so uch happens in our world by industry and government that doesn't give a s**t about Mr Average , who actually is the fodder for money making.

I just meant that government is supposed to put its people first priority no matter what. Its preety simple that observing of the fools running this place that thta very rarely happens , abnd we are all pretty comfortabl here , God knows what poor countries are like. Well he /she /it obviously doesn't know. Ha ha.

I appreciate the point you wish to make.

But it is valid looking backwards, and the opening up of the economy, and South American countries with similar raw advantages, that went backwards into PJK's banana republic. Venezuala, Argentina... we could go in the other direction, its all relative on the nation competition tier. You have to maintain your competitiveness versus young upstarts

 

[Roylion]

Changes nothing mate. Israel is a stolen state. Unfortunately whether your an expert and bipartisan in your feelings. Its still a stolen by force state.

Israel is a legitimate state, recognised as such by 83% of United Nations member countries. Moreover Israel is a member of the United Nations and has been a member of such and has been a member since 11 May 1949.

Its still wrong and you can quote a million times and a million countries that commit the hounding and torture and fear mongering in kids, but you can't change the fact that its done on a lie. That god gave them the right. That's just wrong. They have no right , they are in someone else's land and they shouldn't be.

Even the Palestinian Authority recognises Israel's right to govern specific areas of Palestine. Mahmoud Abbas said the Palestinians are "not seeking to de-legitimize a state established years ago, and that is Israel."

See it as you please , thats your choice , I know what I see

Have you been to Israel?

you may be so close up to see good and bad from both sides , that is irrelevant to what I'm saying. They are "state" under false pretences, its bloody simple.

Israel are here to stay and even the Palestinian Authority recognise that. What the State of Israel's borders will eventually be is still a matter of conjecture. Israel argues that a return to the 1949 borders is not strategically defensible. Israel claims its security would be threatened by (essentially) complete withdrawal as it would return Israel to its pre-1967 10-mile strategic depth. Israel, like any sovereign state, has a right to defend itself against attack from groups that deny Israel's fundamental right to exist.

 

[JoondalupJ]

Israel is a legitimate state, recognised as such by 83% of United Nations member countries. Moreover Israel is a member of the United Nations and has been a member of such and has been a member since 11 May 1949.



Even the Palestinian Authority recognises Israel's right to govern specific areas of Palestine. Mahmoud Abbas said the Palestinians are "not seeking to de-legitimize a state established years ago, and that is Israel."



Have you been to Israel?



Israel are here to stay and even the Palestinian Authority recognise that. What the State of Israel's borders will eventually be is still a matter of conjecture. Israel argues that a return to the 1949 borders is not strategically defensible. Israel claims its security would be threatened by (essentially) complete withdrawal as it would return Israel to its pre-1967 10-mile strategic depth. Israel, like any sovereign state, has a right to defend itself against attack from groups that deny Israel's fundamental right to exist.

I don't really care about the fact that you say Israel is a legitimate state, and, is seen as that by 83% of united nations member countries. It doesn't matter, its still wrong , that's what I'm arguing. You can come out with all your clap trap and, what may be, (and I don't know) bias.

You comment on the point that even the Palestinian Authority recognises Israel. What a crock mate. If someone was holding a freaking "reserve" side US styled military at my head I'd be agreeing too. Do you see how stupid that sounds. Parts of Palestine ha ha , yes so Israel has been given permission have they ? to govern parts of Palestine. What a whacko comment.What if Abbas and west bank Palestine had said no. What then, GAZA??????

What the state of Israel's borders will be are yet to be formed and is still a matter of conjecture, HA, another nonsense. Israel's borders will be determined by Israel with a big gun. As for Israel's 49 or pre 67 borders are non defensible for any sovereign state. THEY AREN'T A SOVEREIGN STATE , THEY ARE A STOLEN STATE UNDER A HIPOCRACY, THAT CREATED IT WITH MILITARY FORCE. Not a democracy..... an hipocracy. See?

So Palestine has no right to defend itself against Israeli invaders and thieves. Wonder what they thought all those years ago when the post world war 2 fighting began. Did the Palestinians have a right to defend themselves, whether they did have a right or not doesn't matter, the fact is they did try to defend themselves
and got beaten, FOR ME THEY DID HAVE A RIGHT TOO , then got invaded and had their home stolen out from under them, and this was sanctioned by our wonderful league of nations or united nations and the world powers of the time., yeah right!

Versailles treaty was bad enough to create a mood that started the 2nd world war and gave birth to Hitler.

This unfair and totally wrong decision to allow a Jewish state that would cause world mayhem for decades to come , well, it was just as stupid

Like I said before , they could have negotiated a fine homeland here in Australia , and yes it was discussed in the past.

But of course GOD said, you blokes can have Israel back or what ever its called these days, so go for it , don't worry about the bloody Arabs.

Have I been to Israel , who gives a s**t whether I have or haven't , what the hell has that got to do with what I perceive as right or wrong.

Don't ever presume brother . You don't actually understand what I'm even saying here, in all this debate.

But I fear you never will, your on the big stick side, that's easy isn't it.

Of course it'll stay the way it is for the foreseeable future, and we will have conflict there for the foreseeable future too. And Israel can claim sovereignty because they got the power , not the right. Ain't that lovely. Enjoy the football season.

 

[Pie eyed]

If they settled the Jews here in Australia we'd have exactly the same problem here.
You cannot just plonk a religious sect in the middle of a foreign country to get the problem off your hands and out of Europe.
The Jews should have been treated no differently than any other religious group.