Politics JSF costs blow out again

[Upton Sinclair]

And the Opposition have the gumption to attack the cost of the NBN, when the 100 planes they promised in givernment will end up being about 60 planes

THE multibillion-dollar defence cuts in the US announced by President Barack Obama this week mean the cost to Australia of the Joint Strike Fighter will spiral even higher, according to former defence minister Joel Fitzgibbon.
The increased cost of the $A16 billion acquisition will be due to the third production delay to the next-generation jet in as many years, and caused by the $US487 billion ($A471 billion) in cuts to US defence spending over 10 years.

Mr Fitzgibbon, who was defence minister from 2007 to 2009, has been vocal about the cost of the Lockheed Martin jet, touted as the future of air warfare. ''F35 unit costs will rise due to US Defence cuts,'' he wrote on Twitter yesterday. ''Entirely predictable and one of a number of reasons I declined opposition pressure to sign.''


Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/national/c...ost-blowout-20120106-1pooj.html#ixzz1ihgdlY3e

 

[blackcat]

And the Opposition have the gumption to attack the cost of the NBN, when the 100 planes they promised in givernment will end up being about 60 planes

sorry, was Fitzgibbon our defense minister or chinas offense minister?

 

[Upton Sinclair]

The JSF is actually cited an example of one of the great White Elephant projects in human history on Wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_elephant

The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter is being increasingly viewed as a "white elephant" by the US military, due to its astounding price tag of some $380 billion dollars US for nearly 2,500 aircraft in three differing versions, to equip nine nations' air forces.[48]

 

[Max zero]

And the Opposition have the gumption to attack the cost of the NBN, when the 100 planes they promised in givernment will end up being about 60 planes

So Australia should of predicted that the US would collapse economically?

Pulling an awfully long bow to try and justify the current government.

Not that I agree that the JSF was a good idea anyway. The future isn't in manned fighter jets.

Replace all those fighters with Predator drones.

 

[Andre]

You can blame the stupidity of the current US government in shutting down the F22 program and not allowing Australia to change to buying Raptors. The US needs money now, they could get a few billion by Australia changing from 100 JSF to a mix of F22's in the short term and later F35's.

Replacing with Predator's or the lik is not viable. The downing of the Sentinel over Iran shows replacing them with stealthy drones isn't viable yet. That's not to say Australia shouldn't be looking to get Stealthy drones to supplement manned fighters, we should, but they aren't a replacement in the next 10 - 15 years. After the JSF completes it's life cycle they would probably be at the stage of being able to have a primarily unmanned fleet.

 

[bombermick]

I don't understand why we spend so much on often used American planes. With or without planes, we're an almost impossible invasion target.

We're often relied upon for our skilled special forces units, we can rely on others for air support.

 

[Admiral Byng]

This is what happens when you let politicians intervene in technical matters. The JSF is supposed to be an all-singing, all-dancing aeroplane to serve the US airforce, navy and marines, each having a different version, presumably in the interests of saving money. Would have been better off developing 3 different aircraft suited to each role instead. At the very least they should just get on with building the conventional take-off and landing version first, and they can develop the other version later.

 

[tazzietiger]

At the very least they should just get on with building the conventional take-off and landing version first, and they can develop the other version later.

Thats already happening to some extent Robert Gates put a 2 year delay on the B variant last year to sort out its problems.

 

[rayven]

Drones today cylon raiders tommorow...

Anyone familar with season 2 e 11 of BSg? it will happen....

 

[Total_Juddshanks]

Yeah its an interesting one this.

It is one of those topics where unless you have a post graduate aerospace engineering background, it is really hard to know whether this is a total lemon or a worthwhile project with some terrible teething problems. Clock is certainly ticking.

The idea of a generic, all-purpose fighter in wide use by the US/Nato/Aust/Japan etc has obvious attractions, it would make joint operations logistically way simpler, as everything is going to be interchangeable. Will also probably give it a longer life span, because if this is in wide use in the US military hardware and software upgrades will keep on happening.

The rather unpleasant question is what in hell do we (and most of the western world) do if the F35 fails??

Even ignoring the price, the US isn't going to want to export Raptors to anyone- basically, that is the trump card they have if China ever gets fractious over Taiwan, and for obvious reasons they want to keep a tight handle on who has access to that technology to reduce the risk of espionage. Human nature being what it is, I suspect a lot of the anti-F35 stuff out there on the web is from warplane nuts who are hoping the whole thing will fall through in favour of the highly unlikely prospect of RAAF getting access to Raptors, but but that just isn't going to happen.

So sans Raptors, we had better hope the F35 finally gets delivered, because there really aren't that many other options on the market, and development of alternatives is a 15 year project- but if Lockheed doesn't get their act together, by 2016 the RAAF will most likely be flying Sukhois. Damned weird.

 

[Max zero]

You can blame the stupidity of the current US government in shutting down the F22 program and not allowing Australia to change to buying Raptors. The US needs money now, they could get a few billion by Australia changing from 100 JSF to a mix of F22's in the short term and later F35's.

Replacing with Predator's or the lik is not viable. The downing of the Sentinel over Iran shows replacing them with stealthy drones isn't viable yet. That's not to say Australia shouldn't be looking to get Stealthy drones to supplement manned fighters, we should, but they aren't a replacement in the next 10 - 15 years. After the JSF completes it's life cycle they would probably be at the stage of being able to have a primarily unmanned fleet.

I would say it would be sooner then that. The US has been cutting back on it's manned fighter programs for years. Drone programs, on the other hand, have expanded massively.

 

[dan warna]

LOL another thread of the Joint Strike Failure.

The eurofighter upgrades will be coming soon and will leave the JSF for dead.

In the meantime we are topping up with another white elephant the F18b. Big Fat duck.

The british are building air craft carrier with no aircraft because of the JSF.

America is applying political pressure so we and the brits and everyone else doesn't drop off and go buy something that works.

Its not even going to meet its proposed specs.

Flying shittruck that's going to be outdated before its released.

 

[stickman11]

So Australia should of predicted that the US would collapse economically?

Pulling an awfully long bow to try and justify the current government.

Not that I agree that the JSF was a good idea anyway. The future isn't in manned fighter jets.

Replace all those fighters with Predator drones.

might go down with their purchase of noisy US subs purchase.

 

[tazzietiger]

I can't see us cancelling our 14 on order. Maybe if the cost and delays keep blowing out we will just have a mixture of SH/Growlers and JSF in the future.

 

[dan warna]

http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/po...-faces-strike-fighter-gap-20130127-2dey7.html
The JSF on going drama continues.
meanwhile the more effective Eurofighter is up to its second generation with plans for the third generation...
JSF, over budget, over priced, under performing and not even here....

 

[LouisCK]

Should just make a bunch of nukes.

 

[Simple Jack]

Even ignoring the price, the US isn't going to want to export Raptors to anyone- basically, that is the trump card they have if China ever gets fractious over Taiwan, and for obvious reasons they want to keep a tight handle on who has access to that technology to reduce the risk of espionage. Human nature being what it is, I suspect a lot of the anti-F35 stuff out there on the web is from warplane nuts who are hoping the whole thing will fall through in favour of the highly unlikely prospect of RAAF getting access to Raptors, but but that just isn't going to happen.

Oh yeah, the yanks are very protective of their Raptors.

I went to one of the industry/trade days at last Avalon, which is a hell of a lot more accessible/open than the public days, and while you could walk around/right up to and even under pretty much all of the other US stuff the F-22s were surrounded by about a 30m cordon with armed guards stationed every 10m or so.

 

[LouisCK]

Why don't we just offer the yanks the option of having more bases built in Australia and do away with our air force altogether?

We'd save billions.

 

[Moo]

Just pay China an annual fee not to attack us and to whack the Indos if they ever get their shyte together - they accept iron ore coins which is a bonus.

 

[dan warna]

the F22 is a fabulous piece of technology.
The fighter quality in the world would have to be the F22 no.1
then the Eurofighter second tranche.
Then a toss up between latest offerings by the oil rich russians, french and the JSF.
Then everything else.
With every passing year and every performance failure by the JSF, the eurofighter looks better and better.

 

[LouisCK]

Just pay China an annual fee not to attack us and to whack the Indos if they ever get their shyte together - they accept iron ore coins which is a bonus.

Singapore's Air Force was enough to scare the s**t out of the Indo's and stop them talking tough.
We don't need much more than a couple of submarines to do the same job. Especially if we got a few nukes.

The difference is, Singapore don't take no s**t from the third world. Australia does, for some reason.

This country needs to get more militant, I'm so sick of this bollocks.

 

[Malifice]

Not that I agree that the JSF was a good idea anyway. The future isn't in manned fighter jets.

Replace all those fighters with Predator drones.

ECM shuts those things down way too easy.

A capacity Goat herders in Afghanistan dont have, but China, North Korea etc do.

The JSF is a good aircraft, but too expensive for what it does. We could have gotten F22's for the same bloody price (the Yanks even indicated they would sell them to us).

Thats even factoring in operating costs.

Whats the point of high-low capability when your lower specced single engined airframes cost more than most 5th generation dual engine air superiority fighters?

 

[Malifice]

This is what happens when you let politicians intervene in technical matters. The JSF is supposed to be an all-singing, all-dancing aeroplane to serve the US airforce, navy and marines, each having a different version, presumably in the interests of saving money. Would have been better off developing 3 different aircraft suited to each role instead. At the very least they should just get on with building the conventional take-off and landing version first, and they can develop the other version later.

Having a single airframe has a ton of logistical advantages and interoperability benefits.

One aircraft means one set of training for avionics, piloting, maintenance and so forth. It drastically reduces the lifetime cost of the platform.

It also allows for seamless coalition work, both by attaching aircrew and aircraft to US assets more or less seamlessly in coalition, and shared training (i.e. our pilots can fly to the US and participate in joint exersizes, operations and training with ease).

That and the fact the aircraft is a very good platform.

However for a single engine non air superiority fighter, its beginning to cost way too much. Its price tag is starting to approach (or even exceed) the costs of Gen 4 top spec Air superiority fighters.

For a multi role aircraft designed to be used in numbers to maintain and take advantage of air superiority once its achieved by air superiority fighters, thats simply not good enough.

 

[LouisCK]

We should make our own fighters better than anything the yanks or Russki's have. Then sell it to China and India.

Pew pew pew.

 

[Malifice]

Even ignoring the price, the US isn't going to want to export Raptors to anyone.

Dont speak too soon - many vested commercial interests in the USA want to sell them to us since the F22 project was cancelled mid way through:

Some Australian politicians and defense commentators have proposed that Australia should purchase F-22s instead of the F-35.[52][53] In 2006, Kim Beazley. leader of the Australian Labor Party supported this proposal on the grounds that the F-22 is a proven, highly capable aircraft, while the F-35 is still under development.[54] However, Australia'sHoward government ruled out purchase of the F-22, as its release for export is unlikely, and lacks sufficient ground/maritime strike capacity.[55] The following year, the newly-elected Rudd Government ordered a review of plans to procure the F-35 and F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, including an evaluation of the F-22's suitability. The then Defence Minister Joel Fitzgibbon stated: "I intend to pursue American politicians for access to the Raptor".[56] In February 2008, U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates said he had no objection to F-22 sales to Australia.[.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-22_Raptor

The price of the F22 skyrocketed from USD $150 million to $360 million per aircraft (a number of internal political reasons were responsible for this with the Yanks spreading construction and development through the 50 States to increase political support for the project).

I'm sure we could purchase export versions at under $300 million per unit. We would only need enough for the single squadron (24 Aircraft). Then rely on an expanded fleet of 60 up-gunned Hornets for all non air superiority work (priced at just $65 million a pop).

We already have 24 F/A-18 Super Hornets. Training and so forth would be negligible.

With the price per unit of the F-35 now exceeding USD $300 million per aircraft, we are getting half the capabilities of the F-22 at the same bloody price.

Id rather field an Air force of 24 F22's and 70 F/A18 Super hornets than 60 F35's.

And it would be much cheaper too. Both up front, and over the life of the aircraft.