North Melbourne and the value of making finals

[Lance Uppercut]

I agree when you say it isn't a "bad" thing, but I don't agree that it is "substantially" better to play 1 game and get smacked.

IMO a team is very marginally, rather than "substantially" better off getting some experience in finals.

Just look at Geelong v Fremantle.... Geelong had WAAAAAY more finals experience than Fremantle... doesn't count for jack shit if you are not good enough.

So when Essendon or North or whoever play finals next, the main thing will be how good your form is going in, not whether you played finals 12 months or 24 months ago.

nah. Every player who played today knows exactly how far off it they are, and it's a long way. They spend all summer knowing where they need to be

 

[Lance Uppercut]

The seagulling gameplan didn't work, finals really are different to H&A. I sure Scotty is smart enough to tweak things to improve again next year.

maybe. I don't know. He appears convinced he has all the answers. Like Knights, I wouldn't be surprised if he double-downed on it last year.

But that's the value of playing finals, even when you're pantsed. Maybe it WILL give Scott pause to think.

 

[bombermick]

The 8th placed team almost always isn't a challenger, and it didn't take Nostradamus to predict North wouldn't buck that trend today.

Apart from Port's experience, the only way it can scar is if the club feels it's closer than they are.

 

[KarlHungus]

No, we did not. So you're clearly not qualified to discuss North, despite your self appointed "authority".

The planets aligned this year for North with regard to their draw and their run with injuries.

Hard to see the club having it that good again.

 

[MightyHawks]

I think there is a lot to be gained by finals matches that are competitive if even just for the first half

I don't think there's anything at all to be gained from a match where you are smashed from the start.

Geelong's younger players would have got a lot out of the Fremantle match as they showed the required intensity after the first 40 minutes

North this year, or the Bombers in the last few years? Not as much I think

 

[Rod Stroker]

who were you missing? Adams? Ok, he's best 22 but you're surely not going to try and tell me you were weakened by personnel issues, surely???

Merely pointing out that your statement was incorrect.

But yeah knock your socks off.

 

[Bloodstained Bomber]

Where is/was this 'shinboner spirit' we're always hearing about?

Scott abolished it.

 

[Magpie Since 1986]

nah. Every player who played today knows exactly how far off it they are, and it's a long way. They spend all summer knowing where they need to be

Just knowing you are long way off doesn't magically make you play better footy the next year.

Essendon knew EXACTLY how far off they were in 2009... 3 years later they are still no closer despite having 3 summers of knowing where they need to be.

Even if I accept your point that "knowing" how far off you are makes a difference, the problem is the game doesn't stay stagnant. The game is changing and other teams are improving all the time. The level North had to be at today won't necessarily be good enough next year.

 

[Bugz]

Got to give it to Lance, he hides his trolling behind 'concern' very well.

 

[Roobs321]

Like 119 has screwed Port Adelaide, you wonder if these repeated finals thrashings will affect the club's mindset.

What is their record like in knockout finals this century?

Norths previous finals since current finals system began in 2000.

Their wins in that time

33pt win over Hawthorn
10pt win over Hawthorn

Thats an average winning margin of 21.5pts across 2 matches. Hawthorn were back in finals after years out both times as well.

Their losses in that time

96pt loss to WCE
35pt loss to Syd
87pt loss to Port
106pt loss to Geelong
87pt loss to Port
38pt loss to Melbourne
50pt loss to Melbourne
125pt loss to Essendon

Thats an average losing margin of 78pts across 8 matches.

A horrific 2-8 finals record since 2000

Culture.

 

[Lance Uppercut]

Merely pointing out that your statement was incorrect.

But yeah knock your socks off.

fair enough. Adams is a good player, would have been a valuable addition

 

[Lance Uppercut]

Got to give it to Lance, he hides his trolling behind 'concern' very well.

oh please. Can we not explore football issues without the tiresome call of "troll"?

 

[The Prosecutor]

Got to give it to Lance, he hides his trolling behind 'concern' very well.

Lance is genuinely understanding of North's wants and needs.

Not everything is a conspiracy.

 

[eldorado]

completely disagree lads. Firstly, a final 5 would mean approximately 12 weeks of nothing games for 3/4 of the comp, and ensure tanking.

Secondly, finals is a lesson you need to learn - even if it's the hard way. How can you argue against this?

A lottery system, or variation of, would eradicate tanking...regardless of how shit teams were travelling. The problem of tanking is not caused by teams being crap; we have had crap teams for the whole 120 years of VFL/AFL, without anyone arguing that integrity was being compromised, only the priority pick issue has done that. The finals should not be seen only as a token reward for mediocre teams to stop them looking for a more tangible reward of a PP.

Secondly, if finals football is a lesson worth learning, they should step up to the plate, and be in the top third of teams. Otherwise, why not just play the whole home and away series as a ranking system, and then just include all 18 teams in the finals?

 

[DJ Dupree]

utterly disagree. Now you know how far off it you are. You know that your game-plan that went ok during the year isn't going to cut it. Your players have a first hand view on what's required in finals. You've experienced being a feather weight against a heavy weight.

That's worth it's weight in gold, surely? How else are you going to learn where you need to get to?

We've had enough spankings and mental fadeouts to learn what we need to bring during the course of the year, and previous years.

Finals are different, but there have been some belter games during the season with the same intensity as any final I've ever seen.

If the players need the calendar month to read 'September' so that they think 'Actually attend the match and earn the good money I'm being paid', then it's their problem really. I don't see Freo having to "learn" anything by getting finals experience, they seem ready to go by actually listening to their coach and getting off their arses and being switched on from the first bounce.

 

[Lance Uppercut]

A lottery system, or variation of, would eradicate tanking...regardless of how shit teams were travelling. The problem of tanking is not caused by teams being crap; we have had crap teams for the whole 120 years of VFL/AFL, without anyone arguing that integrity was being compromised, only the priority pick issue has done that. The finals should not be seen only as a token reward for mediocre teams to stop them looking for a more tangible reward of a PP.

Secondly, if finals football is a lesson worth learning, they should step up to the plate, and be in the top third of teams. Otherwise, why not just play the whole home and away series as a ranking system, and then just include all 18 teams in the finals?

let's say your team is around 9th-12th in Round 12. Do you really wand another 12 games where you are NO CHANCE of making finals?

Please.

 

[Rod Stroker]

oh please. Can we not explore football issues without the tiresome call of "troll"?

It's difficult to think you're not trolling when you start a thread about
"Was it a great experience for North to get pantsed today? Cos I think so."

 

[AngryLittleMan]

Firstly, let me in all seriousness congratulate North for playing finals this year. This thread is not to kick them while they are down.

What I want to explore is the value of making the finals when you are clearly not a competitor and not up to the grade of the other teams in the elite placings.

As an Essendon supporter I speak with some authority. Last year we did what North did. We made it, and got absolutely smashed. It also happened in 09, but the circumstances were somewhat different as we could barely field a team due to injuries.

North, however, had their absolute best team in today, and got walloped. What is the value of making finals?

Firstly, let me state my opinion. I believe that making the finals is NEVER a bad thing, even if you get battered. Why? Because I believe you learn first-hand how far off it you are, and you get a rude lesson what's required to be successful in the crucible of finals. Despite the last 2 months, I believe Essendon are substantially better for having experienced where they need to be.

It's worth nothing, though, that Essendon were roundly castigated for making the finals last year and being flogged. Specifically, many North Melbourne supporters had a very firm opinion that we had hurt ourselves by making it and being badly beaten. That it would "mentally scar" us. That they, as a team, didn't even value making the finals nor want to be there unless they had a team that could win the whole damn thing, or at least go deep. This was a widely espoused opinion by a lot of North supporters for a long time, and one that I personally found risible.

As an adjunct, is North's game-plan fatally flawed, as many believed it would not hold up to the blowtorch of finals, as was profoundly illustrated today? Will today's result cause some heartburn in the North brainstrust and will they have to completely re-jig their game?

So my question is this: what value does the BigFooty community place on a team making the finals who are clearly classes off it. And, specifically, what do North supporters think, now that it is their team who has eaten it? Will it scar them mentally, or will they be a better team for having a ringside seat on what's required to be successful?

The bolded bit is prob the most relevant. While on paper it was our best side, we had 14 guys playing their first final. Of those 14 I reckon a dozen of them have been shot since the siren sounded after the collingwood win 3 weeks ago. Anyone who saw us play last week against GWS could tell the kids were done. Im not worried,this group is seriously resillent. Won 11 of 13 after getting beaten by hawthorn by 115 points and Buddy kicking 13, most sides would have packed it in after that. So im not worried Im hoping that this will galvanise the playing group rather then be an on-going mental nightmare.

 

[eldorado]

let's say your team is around 9th-12th in Round 12. Do you really wand another 12 games where you are NO CHANCE of making finals?

Please.

Yes.

If you're not a contender, it means nothing. No-one remembers who finished seventh, sixth or even third.

The finals should be for the elite, not those just better than mediocre.

I'm a school teacher; we have a lot of the 'let's reward everyone to give them encouragement' kind of thinking. I can buy it for young kids.

For senior AFL players, and their supporters, stiff shit. You're not good enough. Deal with it.

 

[NarniMagic]

You're such a troll lance. A subtle troll I'll give you that, but a troll none the less. I like how you bag our "seagulling" game plan when the purpose of these threads is quote other posters' insults to casually mould some new fresh insults (subtle ones) of your own. At least you're creative I suppose...

 

[Higgs Boson]

Maybe North's youngsters don't quite have the polish needed?

 

[Spuddage]

It shows that an easy draw may get you into the finals but it wont help you once your there.

 

[Lance Uppercut]

You're such a troll lance. A subtle troll I'll give you that, but a troll none the less. I like how you bag our "seagulling" game plan when the purpose of these threads is quote other posters' insults to casually mould some new fresh insults (subtle ones) of your own. At least you're creative I suppose...

I have never used the word "seagulling"

 

[the harry]

Where is/was this 'shinboner spirit' we're always hearing about?

I think it was in the bathroom with someones wife?

 

[AngryLittleMan]

I think it was in the bathroom with someones wife?

Checked, bathroom was occupied by Ben cousins, was snorting some weird powderlike substance up his noise off the bowl.