Coach Sam Mitchell's direction for the club and 2024 news

[Strapping Young Lad]

If anyone wants to have a listen about what the data is saying in regards to whether we have actually gotten worse this year have a listen to this from the 9:15 mark.

I know a few people have already touched on it, but the data is also showing that our results this year have been slightly better despite actually putting out a younger team and dealing with some injuries.




And here.

 

[The Cryptkeeper]

GWS having a younger list than us is incorrect. They fielded a slightly less experienced team than us on round 2 (our experience is heavily skewed by Gunston and Breust making up >25% of our on field experience) but looking at the list as a whole we are the 2nd youngest/least experienced list in the comp behind only North.

It's not an excuse but you can hardly compare GWS to Hawthorn. Kingsley inherited an underperforming team full of potential A-graders on every line who needed a shake up and new direction.

Sam inherited what I can say is one of the worst lists of players I've seen in Hawthorn colours ever.

We have turned over 26 (27 if you include Gunston) of the 46 listed players from our 2021 list. He also inherited a side with by far our best player in Sicily on the sidelines with an ACL. A list that was spiraling down the ladder while still in the top 8 for experience and age (6th most experienced side in the comp).

The fact we haven't had multiple spoons with the crap we had on our list in 2021 and the limited draft capital we've had is a testament to the astute recruiting of Sleepy Mark and co and Sam steering the ship through very rough waters. We certainly aren't seeing clear skies yet but I'm very confident that Sam is the right man for the job.

Apart from a few weird selections this year he's done well through his tenure. I don't really understand this lack of identity nonsense that has been thrown around in the media. We can clearly see there are patterns of play emerging as early as last year.

No, you don’t get to exclude certain players because it helps you skew the data.

Fans can’t say we lack experience and conveniently leave players out who are being selected because of their experience. There is no other reason Gunston is being selected as an example, because it sure as hell isn’t because he’s still an AFL level footballer.

Sam is struggling. That’s undeniable. He’s not a lost cause but Ray Charles could have seen Zach Merrett chopping us up in round one whilst the human glove was watching on in the subs vest. That sort of decision by our senior coach is why fans are right to ask questions.

 

[SSSSSS]

No, you don’t get to exclude certain players because it helps you skew the data.

You can’t say we lack experience and conveniently leave players out.

That’s not how it works.

Sure, I get your point. Breust and Gunston are outliers but every side has it's veterans.

Regardless, GWS do not have a younger or less experienced list than us. Only North Melbourne does (Freo are slightly less experienced than us). That statement was just simply incorrect.

List analysis: Where your club ranks for age and experience

Who has the oldest list, who has the youngest, and which club has the most experience heading into 2024?

www.afl.com.au

 

[SSSSSS]

Some of this might not be accurate - I'm just going by Footywire as of the start of the 2024 season. I also didn't double check as I CBF so take these numbers with a pinch of salt. Some of these teams might be more or less experienced if you had the time to double check.

Median experience of our playing group is 32 games.
Fremantle 38 games.
North is 30 games.
WCE is 30 games.
Crows is 41 games.
Richmond is 31 games.
GWS is 40 games.

Bombers 58 games.
Melbourne is 76 games.
Geelong is 62 games.
Carlton at 52 games.
Pies at 63 games.

You get the picture. GWS are doing very well - exceptional. They have a very good core of players in the 26-30 year old bucket which we lack. Some very handy names in the (near - wanted to include Taylor, he's a gun) 100+ games mark.



Our list of names is nowhere near as impressive (or deep) in quality and quantity.



Freo are the team to watch for mine in the next few years.

Serong, Jackson, Young and Amiss will hit 100 games between 2025-2026 and will compliment the likes of Brayshaw, Darcy, Cox and Ryan to form a very strong core of 100-150+ gamers.

 

[Elvis Hips]

The pile on Sam is copping in here is a bit much. For the last 4 years bar maybe once or twice we have been consistently beaten by Gawn, May and Lever. It was clear from the first minute that they were trying to avoid kicking the ball anywhere near them, we tried to suck Melbourne in and look to pick through them. Melbourne were too good for that, they knew what we were trying to do. So by the time Lever and May were out it was too late, their midfield was well and truely on top and our fowards were lost.

At least we tried something different and were able to change gears once we recognised it wasn't working, just happened to be too late. This loss could have easily been 80+ points. Just think if we lost by 3-5 goals but Gawn has 8 intercept marks and May and Lever rebound every 3rd inside 50 we would all be saying the same thing.

The doom and gloom isn't warranted. This was a top 4 team playing top 4 football and we are unable match it with them yet.

 

[extractasam]

Some of this might not be accurate - I'm just going by Footywire as of the start of the 2024 season. I also didn't double check as I CBF so take these numbers with a pinch of salt. Some of these teams might be more or less experienced if you had the time to double check.

Median experience of our playing group is 32 games.
Fremantle 38 games.
North is 30 games.
WCE is 30 games.
Crows is 41 games.
Richmond is 31 games.
GWS is 40 games.

Bombers 58 games.
Melbourne is 76 games.
Geelong is 62 games.
Carlton at 52 games.
Pies at 63 games.

You get the picture. GWS are doing very well - exceptional. They have a very good core of players in the 26-30 year old bucket which we lack. Some very handy names in the (near - wanted to include Taylor, he's a gun) 100+ games mark.

View attachment 1939809

Our list of names is nowhere near as impressive (or deep) in quality and quantity.

View attachment 1939812

Freo are the team to watch for mine in the next few years.

Serong, Jackson, Young and Amiss will hit 100 games between 2025-2026 and will compliment the likes of Brayshaw, Darcy, Cox and Ryan to form a very strong core of 100-150+ gamers.

Surprised not that many people seem to see this coming. Massive draft hand this year, finals win already on their side. Feel like they will bounce a lot quicker than people think.

Our experience is miles off theirs (GWS) in terms of talent unfortunately.

 

[SSSSSS]

Surprised not that many people seem to see this coming. Massive draft hand this year, finals win already on their side. Feel like they will bounce a lot quicker than people think.

Our experience is miles off theirs (GWS) in terms of talent unfortunately.

Serong is already one of the best mids in the comp. He's been huge the last two games.

Jackson has the potential to be the best player in the league and has looked the part so far this year. Will be interesting how they manage when Darcy returns. He's a freak.

 

[wizzard400]

Can someone clarify something for me, is Adrian Hickmott

Adrian Hickmott

Age

52

Ht

182cm

Wt

88kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

15.3

4star

K

8.7

3star

HB

6.5

4star

M

4.6

4star

T

2.1

4star

G

0.7

4star

No current season stats available

D

11.4

3star

K

6.2

3star

HB

5.2

4star

M

2.8

3star

T

1.8

4star

G

0.2

3star

coaching just the forwards now? Or is he doing both contests and forwards?

 

[Mercy Seat]

You make a fair point.

On a related matter, has any of the coaching panel or the football department as a whole, including the oft-quoted Rob McCartney, explained the thinking behind the perplexing choice of Finn as sub in Round 1? Or are we not allowed to question that either?

This isn’t Watergate, we don’t need an formal inquiry. If it wasn’t asked at the post match press conference then it’s unlikely to get raised because we’ve all moved on.

 

[TheFourPillars]

Can someone clarify something for me, is Adrian Hickmott coaching just the forwards now? Or is he doing both contests and forwards?

Forwards

 

[unitedhawk]

This isn’t Watergate, we don’t need an formal inquiry. If it wasn’t asked at the post match press conference then it’s unlikely to get raised because we’ve all moved on.

There have been two puzzling pre-match decisions so far:
Round 1 - Finn as sub
Round 2 - Game-plan that either wasn't communicated effectively to the players or was too complicated/elaborate for them to implement.

Kudos to Sam for righting the ship at quarter-time against the Dees. I just hope we have better pre-match prep going forward.

Btw, I'm as big a supporter of Sam as anyone else and am confident he'll lead us back to the top. That doesn't mean I can't question decisions he and the selection/coaching panel make from time to time. I'm sure they'll all learn from any mistakes and be better for it in the long run.

Go Hawks!

 

[cryptor]

Some of this might not be accurate - I'm just going by Footywire as of the start of the 2024 season. I also didn't double check as I CBF so take these numbers with a pinch of salt. Some of these teams might be more or less experienced if you had the time to double check.

Median experience of our playing group is 32 games.
Fremantle 38 games.
North is 30 games.
WCE is 30 games.
Crows is 41 games.
Richmond is 31 games.
GWS is 40 games.

Bombers 58 games.
Melbourne is 76 games.
Geelong is 62 games.
Carlton at 52 games.
Pies at 63 games.

You get the picture. GWS are doing very well - exceptional. They have a very good core of players in the 26-30 year old bucket which we lack. Some very handy names in the (near - wanted to include Taylor, he's a gun) 100+ games mark.

View attachment 1939809

Our list of names is nowhere near as impressive (or deep) in quality and quantity.

View attachment 1939812

Freo are the team to watch for mine in the next few years.

Serong, Jackson, Young and Amiss will hit 100 games between 2025-2026 and will compliment the likes of Brayshaw, Darcy, Cox and Ryan to form a very strong core of 100-150+ gamers.

Something that immediately stands out to me is the composition of where on the ground the experience is.

They largely have their most experienced players in the midfield and key positions. Whereas our experience is largely on the flanks, pockets and wings. The positions clubs typically use to ease in young players.

 

[kirbatron]

just reading the last page or two .. in summary we need more topliners & potential topliners.

if we're 2-10 say - how much harder is roughies job?
is the club really done with the draft?

 

[SSSSSS]

Something that immediately stands out to me is the composition of where on the ground the experience is.

They largely have their most experienced players in the midfield and key positions. Whereas our experience is largely on the flanks, pockets and wings. The positions clubs typically use to ease in young players.

25-50 more games into this lot and we should be starting to compete at the pointy end.

 

[Suntory Boss Coffee]

How many y'all ever taken a statistics class? Average experience? Spare me

 

[Suntory Boss Coffee]

Our midfield unit would have to be one of the youngest and inexperienced in the competition.

We have one player in there who has played over 100 games in Worpel at a whopping 105 games. He is 25 y.o.
Our oldest mid in Nash is 26 with a whopping 75 games, and probably only 50 of them as a mid.
Next is Will on 54 and Jai on 53. Followed by Cmac, Ward and then Frenchie.

Our median games played is 41.5 games as a midfield group.

The game is won or lost in the middle. We have players out of form in the middle. It is no wonder that def and fwd are struggling.

 

[wizzard400]

Forwards

That answers a theory of mine. We should have kept Adrian Hickmott as the contests coach and pursued a new forwards coach as opposed to restructuring.

We could have even given Zane Littlejohn a promotion to forwards for the senior side.

 

[Judd2Sewell]

In terms of, I have no idea what we are trying to do or how we are trying to play. But then my second sentence said that so I not sure why your diatribe was necessary.

It’s little wonder many posters have deserted this place. Any criticism is greeted with aggression by fans who refuse to face reality.

If you can’t see that we have massive structural issues and a non-defined playing style then your eyes must be painted on. Sam Mitchell doesn’t get a pass mark on this. He wasn’t appointed yesterday. This is his third season and we have not improved during his tenure.

This is not to say that we won’t get there under Mitchell but he now has questions to answer.

Agree in the most part. We have threads getting shut down and posters branded white flag wavers because they don't subscribe to the Hawthorn BigFooty PR Machine. I thought this was America.

But I think we have improved dramatically in terms of our "list profile." We were in a dire state when Mitchell took over from Clarko. Mitchell and co. have done a great job overhauling the list completely, whilst working also within our limitations (no real top picks; picks pushed back due to F/S, NGA and compensation, etc).

I think Mitchell certainly had his fans in the media and we had some hype/expectations coming into this season, which were perhaps unfair (on him), unearned and have set us up to fail.

The gameplan is hard to discern at the moment and the results on the field haven't really improved over his tenure to date - but at the end of the day he has put the club in a position to potentially become a much better side over the next few years.

On a side note it's generally the same posters that refused to acknowledge Clarko's gross mismanagement during his final years that will give you grief now.

That's the beauty of BigFooty though; there are a wide range of diverse opinions. We are all just nuffies posting on the internet at the end of the day.

 

[SSSSSS]

Agree in the most part. We have threads getting shut down and posters branded white flag wavers because they don't subscribe to the Hawthorn BigFooty PR Machine. I thought this was America.

But I think we have improved dramatically in terms of our "list profile." We were in a dire state when Mitchell took over from Clarko. Mitchell and co. have done a great job overhauling the list completely, whilst working also within our limitations (no real top picks; picks pushed back due to F/S, NGA and compensation, etc).

I think Mitchell certainly had his fans in the media and we had some hype/expectations coming into this season, which were perhaps unfair, unearned and have set us up to fail.

The gameplan is hard to discern at the moment and the results on the field haven't really improved over his tenure to date - but at the end of the day he has put the club in a position to potentially become a much better side over the next few years.

On a side note it's generally the same posters that refused to acknowledge Clarko's gross mismanagement during his final years that will give you grief now.

That's the beauty of BigFooty though; there are a wide range of diverse opinions. We are all just nuffies posting on the internet at the end of the day.

Speak for yourself.

 

[Judd2Sewell]

The pile on Sam is copping in here is a bit much. For the last 4 years bar maybe once or twice we have been consistently beaten by Gawn, May and Lever. It was clear from the first minute that they were trying to avoid kicking the ball anywhere near them, we tried to suck Melbourne in and look to pick through them. Melbourne were too good for that, they knew what we were trying to do. So by the time Lever and May were out it was too late, their midfield was well and truely on top and our fowards were lost.

At least we tried something different and were able to change gears once we recognised it wasn't working, just happened to be too late. This loss could have easily been 80+ points. Just think if we lost by 3-5 goals but Gawn has 8 intercept marks and May and Lever rebound every 3rd inside 50 we would all be saying the same thing.

The doom and gloom isn't warranted. This was a top 4 team playing top 4 football and we are unable match it with them yet.

The chip around during the first quarter reminded me of when Clarko would get the players to do the same thing during games - it even cost us a win or two. But in the end it helped enforce and develop a gameplan.

Hopefully that's all it was and hopefully Mitchell was able to make some observations and learn something things from it, if only that it was terrible to watch and to never try it again.

 

[Leather Poisoning]

The form of Newcombe and Nash is everything. (And lacking day).

The midfield personnel is the same except for Will Day's injury. And we should have enough emerging quality around to cover a drop in form.

BUT - the we rely so much on that core midfield group. The one that was further advanced than expected a year ago and fast-tracked the shunting of O"Meara and Mitchell (I still support that decision). But the drop in form of Nash and Newcombe affects everything. The pressure the backline is under, the quick goals from centre bounces, the slowness of movement into the forwardline.

So that midfield that we were all really enjoying last year has had:
1. A long term injury to Will Day.
2. Newcombe drop in form. Avg 19 disposals - was at 25 across the whole year.
3. Nash - disposal count down similar to Newcombe. Tackle count down - but the fumbles! Lordy!
4. Maginess - was excluded from shutting down Merrett in rd 1. Did an ok shut down job on Oliver. But not the complete shut down we got used to him doing last year.

5. Worpel - continued good form from last year into this year.
6. Reeves - similar to last year. Not a huge difference.
7. Ward - similar to last year
8. McKenzie - been given more opportuntiy - looked better this week.


It's the guys that have all the responsibility that have dropped off. The rest have been similar to last year.
The forward line doing ok aside from goal kicking.
The backline doing ok except for Sicily and Amon much worse performances than last year.

In fact the list of players that have started off a lot worse than last year are all the guys you'd consider most reliable:

• Sicily
• Newcombe
• Nash
• Amon
• Lewis
• Breust

It's very strange

 

[unitedhawk]

The form of Newcombe and Nash is everything. (And lacking day).

The midfield personnel is the same except for Will Day's injury. And we should have enough emerging quality around to cover a drop in form.

BUT - the we rely so much on that core midfield group. The one that was further advanced than expected a year ago and fast-tracked the shunting of O"Meara and Mitchell (I still support that decision). But the drop in form of Nash and Newcombe affects everything. The pressure the backline is under, the quick goals from centre bounces, the slowness of movement into the forwardline.

So that midfield that we were all really enjoying last year has had:
1. A long term injury to Will Day.
2. Newcombe drop in form. Avg 19 disposals - was at 25 across the whole year.
3. Nash - disposal count down similar to Newcombe. Tackle count down - but the fumbles! Lordy!
4. Maginess - was excluded from shutting down Merrett in rd 1. Did an ok shut down job on Oliver. But not the complete shut down we got used to him doing last year.

5. Worpel - continued good form from last year into this year.
6. Reeves - similar to last year. Not a huge difference.
7. Ward - similar to last year
8. McKenzie - been given more opportuntiy - looked better this week.


It's the guys that have all the responsibility that have dropped off. The rest have been similar to last year.
The forward line doing ok aside from goal kicking.
The backline doing ok except for Sicily and Amon much worse performances than last year.

In fact the list of players that have started off a lot worse than last year are all the guys you'd consider most reliable:

• Sicily
• Newcombe
• Nash
• Amon
• Lewis
• Breust

It's very strange

I might be beginning to sound like a broken (vinyl) record about this: PLEASE get HH into the guts!

 

[Elvis Hips]

The chip around during the first quarter reminded me of when Clarko would get the players to do the same thing during games - it even cost us a win or two. But in the end it helped enforce and develop a gameplan.

Hopefully that's all it was and hopefully Mitchell was able to make some observations and learn something things from it, if only that it was terrible to watch and to never try it again.

Yeah it definitely brought back memories of a Clarko game style but for different reasons. i didn't like how it looked one bit but can understand the reasoning behind it.

I'll be surprised if we ever see our backline that timid again.

 

[Leather Poisoning]

In terms of, I have no idea what we are trying to do or how we are trying to play. But then my second sentence said that so I not sure why your diatribe was necessary.

It’s little wonder many posters have deserted this place. Any criticism is greeted with aggression by fans who refuse to face reality.

If you can’t see that we have massive structural issues and a non-defined playing style then your eyes must be painted on. Sam Mitchell doesn’t get a pass mark on this. He wasn’t appointed yesterday. This is his third season and we have not improved during his tenure.

This is not to say that we won’t get there under Mitchell but he now has questions to answer.

Alright- I popped off a little there because that particular phrase does my head and most people who use it don't even know what they were saying. My diatribe is pointed more and them, and unfairly at you. Apologies.

With regard to the rest of what you say-
I am so sure that we have a very defined playing style.
I cannot imagine that Sam Mitchell and the coaching staff got to the end of pre-season and collectively said "oh s**t we forgot to define a game plan/playing style!"

I agree we have structural issues every where and playing terribly as a group. But I can't agree to a playing style not being define. It's a playing style that isn't being executed.

 

[tommyk72]

GWS and by any metric you choose.

You mean except actual average list age and median list age?

 

[jumpingjai]

Agree on Worpel but sadly he is the best of a bad lot at the moment. Of the more senior guys, Newcombe still seems to be on summer holidays and Nash is just awful.

McKenzie is doing well. Ward looks to have stagnated though. Not sure where Cooper Stephens is or the point of him exactly. I am worried that the so called depth coming through might be a bit of a myth.

Sometimes very good or even great players get beaten.
Against Melbourne on clearance plays Viney sat behind Duke and effectively pushed him under or through the ball all game.
Duke will work his way through it, and be all the better for it.
BTW Melbourne used similar tactics all over the field and were allowed to get away with it.
One of the problems with a young team.