Snoops Annual Player Review, List and Draft Strategy

[Hva sher a]

I have a feeling that's why Bucks got him.
That's how they trained all the way through last years pre season.
Having Reid go down for the season threw that plan out the window though.
He definitely looks better when used in the 3rd tall/2nd ruck position, and can use his running power.

Fair point - which is why I'm more intrigued about the potential of recruiting Mitch Clark. He presents as a genuine marking goal-kicking threat, who would allow White to be that 3rd tall and Reid to be returned to the back line (we've lost so much drive out of there)

 

[rustyg70]

My only problem with getting Clarke would be his asking price.
I can't see him coming in on a low wage.
He would be asking for around $300-$350000 at least I would say.
With the Beams contract needing to be renewed before the end of next year, I would like to see him locked away before signing Mitch.

 

[ksardog]

I have a feeling that's why Bucks got him.
That's how they trained all the way through last years pre season.
Having Reid go down for the season threw that plan out the window though.
He definitely looks better when used in the 3rd tall/2nd ruck position, and can use his running power.

how can he be a 2nd ruck when we have 2 ahead of him? grundy and witts.
never thought he was any good and hasnt shown me otherwise.
if we do get mitch clarke [ goes against the rebuild but, whatever ] whites position in the side is null and void in my opinion. a forward line of cloke, reid, clark [ when and if both are fit ], elliott with broomhead and kennedy buzzing around is lethal
brown will be back in the side to add that strength in the backline

 

[Apex36]

My only problem with getting Clarke would be his asking price.
I can't see him coming in on a low wage.
He would be asking for around $300-$350000 at least I would say.
With the Beams contract needing to be renewed before the end of next year, I would like to see him locked away before signing Mitch.

$300k is the average AFL footballers wage now. I'd be happy to put him on that, given it's half of what he was earning at Melbourne.

 

[Gone Critical]

how can he be a 2nd ruck when we have 2 ahead of him? grundy and witts.
never thought he was any good and hasnt shown me otherwise.
if we do get mitch clarke [ goes against the rebuild but, whatever ] whites position in the side is null and void in my opinion. a forward line of cloke, reid, clark [ when and if both are fit ], elliott with broomhead and kennedy buzzing around is lethal
brown will be back in the side to add that strength in the backline

That could be a really dangerous forward line but I suspect if we get Clark it may see Reid go back so there can still be a spot for White if he is good enough.

I would see us as

Fasolo, Clark/Reid, Elliott'
White, Cloke, Blair

Kennedy and Broomhead can back up that group. Am really hoping Fas gets an injury free run this year as I see he and Elliott as potentially lethal small forward combination. Kennedy and Broomhead can be fantastic back ups to them. In this formula Grundt and Witts can also play but will mainly rotate off the bench.

 

[jackcass]

The club decided to follow the Geelong model of having a successful VFL team to create a winning within the whole club.
Bucks at the fan forum explained the reason for drafting senior players was to replace, (cheaply) some the senior games we'd lost so as to assist with the development of the young players by not having to expose them too early/much, (my words).
The club, (and Bucks) openly admit the drafting of those players has had mixed results, (he still sees an upside in Jessie for example) but as with anything there aren't any guarantees in life.

Understand all that and agree having a successful VFL team is critical to long term sustained success at senior level. Do question the premiss that recruiting these senior fringe players eases the burden on the kids as they come through. Most of these kids will spend extended periods in the VFL side before they get a senior opportunity so if we wanted to protect them why aren't we loading up the VFL squad with more senior players, battle hardened 27+ year olds?

As these kids come to the club, many have had exposure to senior footy, particularly those recruited from outside Victoria. Spend as much time as I can watching the VFL and I do it to watch these kids develop, not watch not quite right senior fringe players from other clubs. We've managed to produce enough of those of our own and our record of recruiting in this area is only slightly better than our Cat B rookie endeavours.

 

[jackcass]

My only problem with getting Clarke would be his asking price.
I can't see him coming in on a low wage.
He would be asking for around $300-$350000 at least I would say.
With the Beams contract needing to be renewed before the end of next year, I would like to see him locked away before signing Mitch.

$300-350K would be a cheap get for Clark and quite a reasonable package given the sort of money Melbourne were reportedly paying. Think despite all the media crap about our salary cap I think we've compiled quite a war chest so shouldn't be an issue.

 

[ksardog]

That could be a really dangerous forward line but I suspect if we get Clark it may see Reid go back so there can still be a spot for White if he is good enough.

I would see us as

Fasolo, Clark/Reid, Elliott'
White, Cloke, Blair

Kennedy and Broomhead can back up that group. Am really hoping Fas gets an injury free run this year as I see he and Elliott as potentially lethal small forward combination. Kennedy and Broomhead can be fantastic back ups to them. In this formula Grundt and Witts can also play but will mainly rotate off the bench.

yeh, i dont want white or blair anywhere near my forward line. a fit and focused fas would be a massive bonus. but damn he is frustrating

 

[Matt_352]

Swan - Cloke - Fasolo
Elliott - Clark - Kennedy

Fas needs to step up big time

 

[Anzacday]

Understand all that and agree having a successful VFL team is critical to long term sustained success at senior level. Do question the premiss that recruiting these senior fringe players eases the burden on the kids as they come through. Most of these kids will spend extended periods in the VFL side before they get a senior opportunity so if we wanted to protect them why aren't we loading up the VFL squad with more senior players, battle hardened 27+ year olds?

As these kids come to the club, many have had exposure to senior footy, particularly those recruited from outside Victoria. Spend as much time as I can watching the VFL and I do it to watch these kids develop, not watch not quite right senior fringe players from other clubs. We've managed to produce enough of those of our own and our record of recruiting in this area is only slightly better than our Cat B rookie endeavours.

If we don't have enough experienced senior players that are AFL eligible the the kids are exposed at VFL level AND AFL level.
An example, I watched Tony Armstrong at Cramer St earlier in the year and thought there's no way he gets a senior game, he was doing ok at VFL level though.
We copped all the injuries and he gets senior games.
If we had a player of the same age playing VFL; that would help the VFL side, but the AFL side would be stuffed.

 

[Lefthanded]

Understand all that and agree having a successful VFL team is critical to long term sustained success at senior level. Do question the premiss that recruiting these senior fringe players eases the burden on the kids as they come through. Most of these kids will spend extended periods in the VFL side before they get a senior opportunity so if we wanted to protect them why aren't we loading up the VFL squad with more senior players, battle hardened 27+ year olds?

As these kids come to the club, many have had exposure to senior footy, particularly those recruited from outside Victoria. Spend as much time as I can watching the VFL and I do it to watch these kids develop, not watch not quite right senior fringe players from other clubs. We've managed to produce enough of those of our own and our record of recruiting in this area is only slightly better than our Cat B rookie endeavours.

If we don't have enough experienced senior players that are AFL eligible the the kids are exposed at VFL level AND AFL level.
An example, I watched Tony Armstrong at Cramer St earlier in the year and thought there's no way he gets a senior game, he was doing ok at VFL level though.
We copped all the injuries and he gets senior games.
If we had a player of the same age playing VFL; that would help the VFL side, but the AFL side would be stuffed.

Jackass, I agree with Anzacday plus:
1. There's only so many battle hardened 27yr olds who the club could attract to the club if only VFL listed as they know there will be times the kids get a game ahead of them for their development. Having guys who are fringe AFL mean they can be depth when required, eg our injuries.
2. Think of it this way, do you think we generally do a good job of developing youth? My answer is yes, having the senior experience around them, even if fringe AFL players, is part of part of the formula of that success.

 

[jackcass]

If we don't have enough experienced senior players that are AFL eligible the the kids are exposed at VFL level AND AFL level.
An example, I watched Tony Armstrong at Cramer St earlier in the year and thought there's no way he gets a senior game, he was doing ok at VFL level though.
We copped all the injuries and he gets senior games.
If we had a player of the same age playing VFL; that would help the VFL side, but the AFL side would be stuffed.

Yeah, I was at the Northern Blues game and agree, Armstrong looked a long way off it. Still not convinced about him however he did okay when he got his chance. I'd argue that on form we equally could have played Yagmoor or Ramsay in the seniors ahead of Armstrong and not have been any further disadvantaged.

I'll go the other way. In 2010 we introduced Ball and Jolly to the senior squad to fill identified weaknesses. Both were high quality players, I was very happy we got them. Ultimately, they were probably the difference between us again being also rans and being premiers. But at the start of the season how many supporters would have picked us for premiers without Lockyer, Prestigiacomo, Fraser, Medhurst, Anthony, O'Bree and Rusling in the team. Not to many. It was the kids who surpassed these more senior guys for a variety of reasons.

I know you need to have a balance between senior players and youth and that our squad has all too few senior players remaining. I just question the merits of recruiting fringe players, particularly the 25+ types. You generally get what you pay for and we haven't been prepared to pay a lot.

 

[rustyg70]

how can he be a 2nd ruck when we have 2 ahead of him? grundy and witts.

I didn't say he was ahead of them, I just said he looked better as a 3rd tall/2nd ruck, instead of a key forward.

 

[jackcass]

Jackass, I agree with Anzacday plus:
1. There's only so many battle hardened 27yr olds who the club could attract to the club if only VFL listed as they know there will be times the kids get a game ahead of them for their development. Having guys who are fringe AFL mean they can be depth when required, eg our injuries.
2. Think of it this way, do you think we generally do a good job of developing youth? My answer is yes, having the senior experience around them, even if fringe AFL players, is part of part of the formula of that success.

We'll have to respectfully agree to disagree.

There are any number of former AFL listed players on VFL lists, Russell moved to the Doggies for example, so identifying them isn't the issue. It's a conscious decision to instead chase 19, 20, 21 year old development types. I think we've got a couple of ancient 25-26 year old types in Hellier and Corr. The rest are all kids.

And if you were to sit down and put together a round 1 2015 team I'm pretty confident that most would include the Adams, Elliott, Langdon, Williams, Witts, Broomhead, and Kennedy types, not because they had a 2014 season well supported by a solid senior cohort, but because they demonstrated they could play. Playing a Russell, Armstrong, or Young at senior level can just as equally delay a players development because they don't get the senior opportunities.

I'm not saying we shouldn't trade, just that I'd prefer we were far more discerning in who, and that there is far greater chance of upside from an 18 yo kid.

 

[DaVe86]

I actually take a different view of our forward line with Clark.

Clark and Cloke are monsters. So I'd actually go with smaller players around them.

I'd put Reid into defence and play karnezis up forward as the in between.

I'd then put Goldsack forward for his defensive pressure, and at 193cm he is a marking threat as the 4th forward.

Then I put Elliot and Broomhead at their feet, with Kennedy starting bench.

Goldsack, Clark, Elliott
Karnezis, Cloke, Broomhead


Defence then has Brown and Keeffe as the key posts, with Reid sweeping. We have the versatility of switching Goldsack and Reid if we want to stretch the other team...or if Clark is in the ruck.

That also allows us to still play Grundy and Witts, with one subbing off to allow Clark into the ruck and bring on more run.

I reckon that setup looks pretty balanced.

I want Reid in defence as he is the best in our side at reading the ball in flight and intercept marking. Takes some pressure off Langdon as well. Reid is also a better disposer off the backline than Frost.

Intercept marks are important as a defender and we lacked that this year.


Overall I really hope we get Clark as he suits our needs.

White and gault are depth.

 

[swiftdog]

I agree, it is a crapshhot. We've had years where we've totally stuffed it however I'm suggesting that we can get better long term outcomes out of drafting kids than we can by acquiring the Russell, Young, Lynch, Armstrong, and White types from other clubs.

Only issue with the Doggies kids is they haven't been able to grab any talls of note and when you consider they haven't had a dominant key forward since Barry retired, that's been a major oversight. Their midfield will be the envy of many clubs over the coming years though. If they could grab someone like Mitch Clark they'd pretty quickly climb the ladder.

Melbourne and Carlton have had a plethora of very high picks over the lat decade and have habitually made bad choices. Melbourne may have started to correct that over the last couple of trade periods, time will tell, and Menzel will likely be a very good player for Carlton, but did they really need another soft outside flanker type player on their list.

Yeah now I see where you're coming from. I was more referring to people that want to see the likes of Reid and Brown used as trade bait to pick up 2 draft picks or whatnot. I'd hate to trade out one of our experienced players unless we absolutely needed to (Lumumba maybe) or we orchestrate a deal to rob another team blind. I can't see the latter happening. Out of the 38 players (I think, could be including rookies here) I only count 15 players that I'd say are developed, solid, adequate, AFL players as well as what I see them as:

Pendlebury (best 22, important*)
Beams (B22*)
Cloke (B22*)
Sidebottom (B22*)
Swan (B22, aging)
Reid (B22*)
Brown (B22*)
Toovey (B22*)
Lumumba* (if he hangs around)(B22, solid)
Macaffer (B22, solid)
Goldsack (B22, solid)
White (EMG)
Young (Borderline 22)
Blair (depth, probably has some development left but has been in the system for 5+ years)
Dwyer (depth, older player but may get a little better)

If we assume Lumumba goes then we're down to 14, I don't know how this compares to the likes of Hawthorn and Sydney but I imagine it's a fair few less and even including the likes of Blair and Dwyer may be pushing it. Basically we just need to wait for the next crop to come through and hopefully push out the likes of Goldsack, Macaffer, Young in a couple of years time a la how Medhurst, Lockyer etc were pushed out in 2010. Before that happens I don't mind if we recruit one or two players for experience and depth. If the choice is between the likes of Lynch or Russell for a year or two versus a very late draft pick in the 80s or so (who'll most likely only last two years on the senior list anyway) then I don't mind which way the club goes, especially as I back Hine to know whether there could be a hidden gem at the back of the draft or a genuine longshot prospect.

 

[Apex36]

I actually take a different view of our forward line with Clark.

Clark and Cloke are monsters. So I'd actually go with smaller players around them.

I'd put Reid into defence and play karnezis up forward as the in between.

I'd then put Goldsack forward for his defensive pressure, and at 193cm he is a marking threat as the 4th forward.

Then I put Elliot and Broomhead at their feet, with Kennedy starting bench.

Goldsack, Clark, Elliott
Karnezis, Cloke, Broomhead


Defence then has Brown and Keeffe as the key posts, with Reid sweeping. We have the versatility of switching Goldsack and Reid if we want to stretch the other team...or if Clark is in the ruck.

That also allows us to still play Grundy and Witts, with one subbing off to allow Clark into the ruck and bring on more run.

I reckon that setup looks pretty balanced.

I want Reid in defence as he is the best in our side at reading the ball in flight and intercept marking. Takes some pressure off Langdon as well. Reid is also a better disposer off the backline than Frost.

Intercept marks are important as a defender and we lacked that this year.


Overall I really hope we get Clark as he suits our needs.

White and gault are depth.

As much as I love Reid as a forward I have to agree that he is the best we have for intercept marking and disposal from defence. It may allow him to shed a few kilos of muscle too if he is playing that role, which could ease up the load on his legs and lessen the chances of soft tissue injuries.

 

[well left]

I actually take a different view of our forward line with Clark.

Clark and Cloke are monsters. So I'd actually go with smaller players around them.

I'd put Reid into defence and play karnezis up forward as the in between.

I'd then put Goldsack forward for his defensive pressure, and at 193cm he is a marking threat as the 4th forward.

Then I put Elliot and Broomhead at their feet, with Kennedy starting bench.

Goldsack, Clark, Elliott
Karnezis, Cloke, Broomhead


Defence then has Brown and Keeffe as the key posts, with Reid sweeping. We have the versatility of switching Goldsack and Reid if we want to stretch the other team...or if Clark is in the ruck.

That also allows us to still play Grundy and Witts, with one subbing off to allow Clark into the ruck and bring on more run.

I reckon that setup looks pretty balanced.

I want Reid in defence as he is the best in our side at reading the ball in flight and intercept marking. Takes some pressure off Langdon as well. Reid is also a better disposer off the backline than Frost.

Intercept marks are important as a defender and we lacked that this year.


Overall I really hope we get Clark as he suits our needs.

White and gault are depth.

I reckon that is about spot on.

I'd also have Elliott and Swan swapping into the midfield. I think Elliott can be a Robbie Gray type for us..

 

[ksardog]

I didn't say he was ahead of them, I just said he looked better as a 3rd tall/2nd ruck, instead of a key forward.

He looked better in the vfl side

 

[Hardas]

I reckon that is about spot on.

I'd also have Elliott and Swan swapping into the midfield. I think Elliott can be a Robbie Gray type for us..

Good call on the potential of Elliott - one more strong preseason might do the trick for him. I'd love to see the mid rotation through the forward 50 to include all of 10, 17, 22 and 36 with the likes of 19, 7 and 29.

 

[Hva sher a]

Good call on the potential of Elliott - one more strong preseason might do the trick for him. I'd love to see the mid rotation through the forward 50 to include all of 10, 17, 22 and 36 with the likes of 19, 7 and 29.

I'd also like Beams to spend maybe 10% more time up forward. The guy is silk and has a great knack for kicking goals. Broomhead strikes me as the type who can pick up Beam's mid time (not full time of course)

 

[Snoop Dog]

I actually take a different view of our forward line with Clark.

Clark and Cloke are monsters. So I'd actually go with smaller players around them.

I'd put Reid into defence and play karnezis up forward as the in between.

I'd then put Goldsack forward for his defensive pressure, and at 193cm he is a marking threat as the 4th forward.

Then I put Elliot and Broomhead at their feet, with Kennedy starting bench.

Goldsack, Clark, Elliott
Karnezis, Cloke, Broomhead


Defence then has Brown and Keeffe as the key posts, with Reid sweeping. We have the versatility of switching Goldsack and Reid if we want to stretch the other team...or if Clark is in the ruck.

That also allows us to still play Grundy and Witts, with one subbing off to allow Clark into the ruck and bring on more run.

I reckon that setup looks pretty balanced.

I want Reid in defence as he is the best in our side at reading the ball in flight and intercept marking. Takes some pressure off Langdon as well. Reid is also a better disposer off the backline than Frost.

Intercept marks are important as a defender and we lacked that this year.


Overall I really hope we get Clark as he suits our needs.

White and gault are depth.

I think we all make an assumption Clark will walk straight in. I wouldn't mind betting he starts in the VFL and builds a bit but maybe not.

Yeah I don't mind that DaVe but it leaves a couple of other questions. Eg what to do with Swan? I would think the first 2 midfield spots next year are probably going to Adam, Pendlebury and Beams so Swan has to fit on a flank or do we think bench. I reckon you will see Williams in there a bit to next year and possibly Sinclair. It also squeezes Frost out of the side which I don't like as I have him firmly in the best 22. Kid is learning and as he builds he will just get better and better.

With Clark my best 22 would be;

B Sinclair, Brown, Frost
HB Langdon, Reid, Goldsack

C Sidebottom, Pendlebury, Williams
R Witts, Beams, Adams

HF Swan, Cloke, Broomhead
F Elliott, White, Clark

Int Fasolo, Kennedy, Toovey, Martin
Emerg Seedsman, Grundy, Karnezis

Others;

Scharenberg - injured

MacAffer - injured

Dwyer - I think he has fallen back a bit. Might have been inj but others preferred for mine. Great depth player and will get games.

Grundy - will come down to he and White I would think

Blair - I don't have him in the best 22. If we are looking to blood kids then Kennedy gets first go

Young - He isn't in the best 22. Same as Blair.

Keefe - pretty unlucky but he'd be pretty confident someone will be injured.

Thomas - I think he has more to do on consistency and disposal. I see him as trade / draft pick bait albeit happy for him to stay.

Armstrong - Depth player

Karnezis - I think there are a couple of spots for him as a 3rd tall fwd or as a wing. Right on the cusp for me.

Oxley - Needs to get back to that 2013 form.

Freeman - Needs to build up but would think will be in the side before long. Good preseason and would be a chance for best 22.

Seedsman - He is one of my favourites but he has some work to do on a couple of areas for mine.

Ramsay - Something to work to and is probably the first or second in line if one of the medium backs drop out.

Gault - Needs another year in the VFL but will get chances

Marsh - Ripper

 

[loki04]

That could be a really dangerous forward line but I suspect if we get Clark it may see Reid go back so there can still be a spot for White if he is good enough.

I would see us as

Fasolo, Clark/Reid, Elliott'
White, Cloke, Blair

Kennedy and Broomhead can back up that group. Am really hoping Fas gets an injury free run this year as I see he and Elliott as potentially lethal small forward combination. Kennedy and Broomhead can be fantastic back ups to them. In this formula Grundt and Witts can also play but will mainly rotate off the bench.

Too much Blair, I'm also iffy on Fas goes missing far too much as a fwd.

 

[jackcass]

With Clark my best 22 would be;

B Sinclair, Brown, Frost
HB Langdon, Reid, Goldsack

C Sidebottom, Pendlebury, Williams
R Witts, Beams, Adams

HF Swan, Cloke, Broomhead
F Elliott, White, Clark

Int Fasolo, Kennedy, Toovey, Martin
Emerg Seedsman, Grundy, Karnezis

I think their will be lots of variation in how people see the 2015 side. Without knowing how the preseason unfolds, I'd be swapping Reid to FF, White, Clark and Martin out for your 3 emergencies or Grundy and 2 of Seedsman, Karnezis and Thomas depending upon opposition.

I like the idea of Williams getting midfield time. Adds pace and grunt.

If Clark does get traded in, I think he'll need some time in the VFL to find a bit of form. He, Witts, Grundy and White might find themselves fighting for 2x spots as the season progresses.

One thing is certain, if we get through prseason with a healthy list there will be some very interesting selection committee meetings.

 

[Jelly Bean]

That could be a really dangerous forward line but I suspect if we get Clark it may see Reid go back so there can still be a spot for White if he is good enough.

I would see us as

Fasolo, Clark/Reid, Elliott'
White, Cloke, Blair

Kennedy and Broomhead can back up that group. Am really hoping Fas gets an injury free run this year as I see he and Elliott as potentially lethal small forward combination. Kennedy and Broomhead can be fantastic back ups to them. In this formula Grundt and Witts can also play but will mainly rotate off the bench.

So you want to tie up one of your three bench positions with a ruckman? Who only plays 50% of the game at best?