Your not wrong. The Gospel makes it pretty clear that we have to take care of the poor/ less fortunate etc.
The new Pope is hammering that message pretty hard at the moment.
Religion The God Question (continued in Part 2 - link in last post)
- Thread starter omit
- Start date
- Tagged users None
- Status
Your not wrong. The Gospel makes it pretty clear that we have to take care of the poor/ less fortunate etc.
The new Pope is hammering that message pretty hard at the moment.
But according to tesseract, Jesus didn't make the poor a priority, it's all about people's spiritual being, the "kingdom", and you only need to help the poor when the opportunity comes up and when it's within your means
Then by tesseract's logic, this pope would be a pagan
I don't disagree that Jesus spoke much about money but needing to give up everything to follow him was not his message, it is willing to give up everything, the heart. Otherwise perhaps we should all hate our mum and dad's to go along with Luke 14.
I know several people who make lots of money give it all up and then God blesses them with more. One pastor sold all he had, even his house and cars cleaned out his bank account to give to the church, and he sat in his now sold house in his office and laid back and said to God, "I think even you have to admit this is hard to top." The phone then rang, it was a man saying that he had a plane in a hanger he was giving him, fully fuelled and piloted for 12 months to take him anywhere he wanted to go. He then felt God say "Gotchya".
God has no issue with money, just the love of it.
Sent from my GT-N5110 using Tapatalk
The verses I put out and the bible disagree with you, and btw, Luke 14 and Jesus talking about parents was his way of saying people have to put God even above their own blood parents, since it'd also contradict honour your parents as he commands you to
How many more scriptural evidence can I put out that clearly states Jesus talking about giving everything materialistically in order to follow him before Christians actually realise that, or are they gonna keep running away and spin the bible in a way that they don't have to be Christians?
You know I am not talking about God having issues with money, right? It's the possessiveness of money and giving it away in a form of socialism that Jesus has made perfectly clear that's what everyone who wants to follow him should do, you can keep giving cliches like not money but the love of it, but yet again that's not addressing the issue
And I do love the prosperity gospel preaching though, where apparently this God is about blessing you, wanting to gives things to you, wanting to make you rich, how giving is good because it means you'll get more in the end. I love how imbiblical it is but Christians are willing to accept the prosperity gospel because it suits their own greed and selfish desires while still feigning a front that they're following Christ
Last edited:
Which comes first. Do you get this spiritual gift through action eg helping the poor/ refugees etc.
Or through by getting this spiritual gift you then will be compelled to help the poor/ refugees etc
I'm for option A in that you open yourself up to spiritual blessing etc through actions.
JC when on this earth showed us through actions etc.
I think you may not fully understand the issues with the prosperity Gospel, because this isn't actually the issue with it. It is the Give to Get mentality without understanding the biblical teaching on finance and blessing.
Have a look at Mary and the perfume, if Jesus was about giving up all, he would have been in up on her face about wasting a years wages on him. But it was the attitude of Judas, who took the part you believe Jesus should have who failed to realise that the issue was not the money, but the heart.
And it isn't a cliche it is in the bible.
Wherever your treasure is, there the desires of your heart will also be.
For the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil.
The parable of the money bags, more was given to the one with more because he was responsible or in Christianese stewarded correctly the resource God gave them.
It is a great lie of the devil to force Christians into a spirit of poverty in some sort if pious doctrine of being humble which strips away the ability of the Church to resource itself to spread the gospel, heal the sick, feed the poor and cast out demons.
Matthew 5:19-20 from the sermon on the mount:
19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Then there's the verse about unless they give everything away they cannot be Jesus's disciples
He did say it's a narrow road, but don't tell Christians that, salvation is free, you don't ever have to do anything, it's not about rules or conforming to strict commands, just accept Jesus in your life. Great sales pitch, but the bible disagrees with them. When they're confronted with people who call themselves Christians and have accepted Christ in their live, doing heinous things that are unbecoming of those who follow Jesus, then they're suddenly like, but they aren't genuine Christians, they will be judged in the last day. So salvation clearly requires some form of conforming to customs, but they're still gonna sit there and tell us it's free
Christians contradict themselves everywhere, just twisting the bible for their own purposes, if they actually follow what this Jesus bloke said, they'd be pretty dang good people, alas they don't really want to, they just want you to think they do.
Did you even read my post? Not for the first time you have completely ignored things I've said, that's precisely what I said, propserity gospel think giving means they'll get more. Learn to read
The attitude of Judas was to keep the money for himself and secretly take the money they stashed up for himself, he was a thief, that was Judas's attitude, if you read that story properly you should know that, it's stated in the bible and he stole from their stash.
So giving your possessions to the poor is not the attitude of Judas at all, that's stupid and wrong. There were some disciples that were protesting at the time, but Jesus himself said the poor will always be with us, you will get to help them whenever you can, but I won't always be with you, I am about to die. So don't be too hard on Mary. That was the essence of the chapter.
It's hardly a justification for not giving everything away, you have completely taken it out of context to suit yourself. Unless Jesus is here with you right now and you threw your money into pleasing him because he's about to give his life for your sins, you can hardly use this verse to justify not giving everything away, when He repeatedly commanded followers to do exactly that everywhere else. This is just a special case due to the impending Crucifixion
It is a cliche, and btw selling all your money and possessions is also in the bible, repeatedly, I've given you exactly those verses, but you'll conveniently ignore those.
The parable of Minas, or the talents, or in greek translation, "coin", isn't essentially about not giving away your money, you do realise that right. It's about calling out those who bury their talents and money to the ground when God has given it to them so that they can put it to good use for his kingdom. Hence why the guy who used it got more in return, because he looked after the estates well and he was told to use the new ones given to him in much the same way. It has nothing to do with justifying withholding your possessions, in actual fact it supports me to say that you should be using all that God has given to you for his kingdom, which is consistent with him telling you to give away all your possessions
Yet again taking another parable out of context, well done
Can Christians even distinguish what is from the devil and what is from God? Maybe the real God they're suppose to listen to, they ignore, and the God they fabricated in their own imagination to suit their own selfish desires is actually the devil? It strips nothing away from the church, God himself told you to give it all away, and don't worry about tomorrow, for God will provide for you in his own way, it's called living through faith. What are truths and what are lies? A lot of Christians can't seem to tell the difference
I have given you loads of evidence not least from the bible that giving it all away is exactly as you were commanded to do, but you can keep spinning it and be in denial about it all you want because Christians wanna hold onto what they have, just like that rich guy. At the end of the day Christians only cares about Jesus only if it suits them to do so, the only God Christian worships are themselves.
hardon
Club Legend
- Aug 14, 2010
- 1,301
- 1,092
- AFL Club
- Hawthorn
can somebody who is across the whole bible explain to me how jesus' death benefits somebody born AD as opposed to BC? if you were born BC did you just draw the short straw? if not, you'll have to explain the meaning of jesus' death to me. thx.
they do, that glazing s**t is just what the marketers sell you guys to pump the price. why do you think that the catholics have all those tax free investments. the micks have outdone the other abrahamic faith on for in vestments the child-abused cant get their hands on. is that the right hue for the vestments? evo?
Faith alone is the catch cry of the Protestant Reformation. No where in the Bible does it say faith alone.
It says faith. It says plenty about actions as well.
The only authority the new Christian churches is the Bible so they are free to interpret it anyway they like.
I've met some wonderful fundamentalists who just do Gods will all day and everyday and they are quite inspiring even if they do say all the animals were on the Ark and the world is 6000 years old. It's their actions that inspire me.
There are plenty of Catholics who would run you over as long they got to Church on time.
But good or bad if you are going to a Church you are getting a basic message each week of love thy neighbor. So you are a chance. Maybe not now but down the track you might make a difference.
If we didn't have religion I rekon our society would be more stuffed up.
Hitler, Stalin, Chairman Mao all were against it.
A bit of a ramble. But I find it all very interesting.
hardon
Club Legend
- Aug 14, 2010
- 1,301
- 1,092
- AFL Club
- Hawthorn
oh man, you were doing so well until you rolled out this tired, old, christian propaganda chestnut. do try harder please.
I was expecting to use the old chestnut saying when the "look at all the wars started because of religion" gets fired off.
Beat me to it.
Don't you rekon if there was no religion it would only be who ever controlled the media deciding how the plebs thought.
I agree that real Christians who take God's love seriously and actually do it are great people, I have no problems with them whatsoever
But organized religion has been up to many nefarious and atrocious things for centuries, when people in power becomes corrupt and use a deity as a justification of their own greed and prejudice, to willfully mislead others for their own gain. They are among the lowest of the low
My problem is with fake Christians, what happened in the beginning of time doesn't concern me as much
I wouldn't agree that without organized religion society would be more stuffed up, I think whether people are good or bad are just random in a predisposed way, in spite of religion telling us they are always a force for good, when a lot of them clearly aren't
hardon
Club Legend
- Aug 14, 2010
- 1,301
- 1,092
- AFL Club
- Hawthorn
well, whomever appears in the media will certainly influence thoughts of a great many. but has it really ever been any different? books are media too, and the religions have probably used that media as much as they could to influence the masses.
question is, if religion didn't exist would the messages influencing the masses be any better or worse? think about it, and don't believe everything you've been lead to believe about people who just don't believe mythologies from ancient texts.
The word propaganda came from an administrative body of the Catholic church back in the 16th century, it was a congregation aimed at "propagating" non-Catholic countries
The word for misinformation came from organised religion, what more needs to be said?
The word for misinformation came from organised religion, what more needs to be said?
I am not using any of these to justify not giving everything, but I am saying that you do not have to give everything as a commandment.
Why I pointed out those specific verses is to help you understand that money and resource is and has always been a part of the kingdom. That is without any pointers to the OT Abraham, Jacob, David and Solomon. Point out each verse you have regarding the words of Jesus and I will do what I can to explain the hidden things.
The Alabaster jar story has quite a few strings to its teaching, but the focus for our discussion is in response to the gift. The disciples were indignant, they responded with wrong intentions not thinking beyond what they saw before them, they failed to seek the will of Jesus. The first layer points to the fact he was reminding them of his impending death but it was more to display the role of extravagant worship and blessing. Her resource was being used to glorify the kingdom, and that is something that is not as simple as giving all. God provides resource to bless the Kingdom as a whole. God doesn't give money , he uses people to give money, for that he provides resource. Without the resource , the anointing of Jesus would not happen. It is part of a pattern regarding the stewardship of resource whether that be money, people, spiritual gifts , knowledge... If all Christians gave their money to the poor, where does the next batch of money come from? Yes God provides, but that includes finance. Jesus needed a tomb, God provided using the resource of another.
Re read your talent explanation, you will see that you hit the nail on the head, it is about giving all to the Kingdom, but wisely and with the masters will in mind. Increase is given to those who sow according to Gods will. Again, giving everything away without a plan to keep resource is a little odd if you are building a Kingdom.
And yes Christians can distinguish between God and the devil through the Holy Spirit in line with the word.
If you want to list those verses I will give you my view if you want to continue the discussion. Or if you feel we just won't agree then let's focus on something else, i am happy either way.
And regarding the prosperity teaching, you made your argument and included it to rebutt the previous post so you asserted I was offering a prosperity style argument. Your original summation was half way there but lacked the greater teaching on finance and blessing . Perhaps make it clear if you want to make a separate remark outside of your main comment as it was flowing on so in the process connected the comment with your previous commentary.
At least with religion we know what we get. Christian religion has been part of our culture for 2000 years.
So I guess if you are happy where we are at with democracy, anti racist laws, universities, human rights etc. it ain't perfect of course. But proof in the pudding.Some of that surely has to be contributed to Christianity because it has played such a huge part in our culture.
As you said would we be at a better place now without it no one knows.
My positivity with Christianity is that it hard to move away from that basic message that JC got going.
Can be twisted but it's a fair safety net when the sh@t hits the fun.
Like who's going to stop us blaming the refugees for all problems etc.
Is there really a difference? look at those who consider themselves as belonging to political ideal sets now? they are just as sanctimonious as religious people because they are virtually the same thing of course without the nauseating doctrine that their stupidity is divinely inspired.
hardon
Club Legend
- Aug 14, 2010
- 1,301
- 1,092
- AFL Club
- Hawthorn
i suppose when you're brought up to believe in a god and it's influence over everything, you can be forgiven for thinking that we owe lots, or everything you see around you to that religion/god.
of course i completely reject that premise. jesus didn't invent the words or concepts of compassion and love, or any of the stupid s**t he said either. if you want to make a meaningful comparison, and include citations, to how other parts of the world and other cultures were doing, and also outline how christianity changed that then i'm all ears.
i contend that people don't always love thy neighbour but generally do. i contend it was always that way, BC or AD. we already had cities, culture, art, agriculture etc. before jesus, and i expect we were always on the same trajectory and jesus/bible did nothing to change it.
christianity may have become the most successful religion, but you're going to have to give me more than just naked assertion if you want to convince me that humanity is better off for christianity/religion having existed. i don't think you're a fundamentalist so i expect you won't hit me with sodom and gomorrah as evidence.
But Jesus repeatedly commands Christians to! And you are using those verses to justify not giving everything! It's like someone telling me I'm not calling your mum a prostitute, I'm just saying she has sex with people for money. You were trying to justify exactly that while try to ignore the biblical evidence I've built up that shows Jesus does tell you to do so
Sorry that's absolute bs spin right there, you were trying to justify not giving everything, you were saying it's a devil's lie, you should remember what you typed last post, ya know.
And these "hidden things", how much clearer do you want it? It's there in black and white that he tells his followers to do that, so basically when the bible says things you like then you interpret it as it's said, when it says things you don't like then you must discover "hidden meaning", because it must never mean the way you don't like it to mean, okay.
Yet again that's just bs over-elaborate spin that doesn't even make sense, so many words that actually ends up saying nothing.
No it wasn't a display of the role of extravagant worship and blessing, btw do you know what Jesus say about those who make a big show of worship and they worship in vain? So you're already wrong on that part.
Besides, it isn't even what was said, these are the verses
7 You will always have poor people with you. You can help them any time you want to. But you will not always have me.8 She did what she could. She poured perfume on my body to prepare me to be buried.
That is exactly as Jesus said, the poor will always be there and you should help them the way I commanded you to (which is to sell all your possessions and give to the poor), but you will not always have me. She poured perfume on my body to prepare me to be buried. It was a special/exceptional case where Jesus made a pass because he was about to be killed, and he saw the anointing as a burial preparation.
So unless Jesus is here in front of you and he's about to die very soon, then everything you tried to spin and twist to justify how Christians spend their finances or or that we don't have to give everything to the poor is just that, imaginative spin. You look at the bible like a Freudian picture, if you wanna see a penis then you'll probably end up seeing a penis, but a penis it isn't.
But what is "wisely"? Aren't Christians told to trust in the Lord with all their heart and lean not in their own understanding? Aren't Christians told in one of Paul's letters that earthly wisdom is useless to God, but God's foolishness is still better than human wisdom? What you're trying to do is to rationalize not following God's commands as He told you, which is to sell all you have and give to the poor, because in your own human understanding you think that must be wrong, that must be unwise. But then God tells you that by living through faith he would look after you. So what is more important, your earthly wisdom or actual faith?
Christians are told to just follow the bible, not to deviate off it based on "wisdom" when it doesn't suit them. Yet again the parable of the talents actually gives no real indication of how Christians should withhold their finances at all but that's how you choose to spin it.
And the word tells Christians to sell everything and live in faith, for you can't follow Jesus without giving up everything. But apparently that's the devil's lie. So what is from God, what is from the devil? How do you distinguish the Holy Spirit from your own personal selfish desires and agendas? Is the little voice in your head you or God, or you think it's God when it's really you?
I have listed loads of verses of my own that backs up my point from the very start, I see they haven't been dealt with at all, which I am not too surprised about. I don't feel like we'll agree so it's up to you whether you wanna continue, I definitely can but it takes two to tangle
I would disagree with that, I think they can easily move pretty damn far to wherever they want, there's no limits to how far they deviate tbh
There are hundreds of cults built around people who call themselves the literal 2nd coming of Jesus, all over the world. Jesus's message has long been whitewashed beyond recognition for most parts of the church. Just have a look at the US Christian churches
I didn't mean to make a Christian v other religions
The muslin church would have had a huge influence on who and what their culture is now.
Pre Christian religions would have had an influence on their cultures.
Jesus and the bible may have had nothing to do with it but the Church was a powerful institution and has had a huge influence throughout history.
I figured that was a fact.
Surely our History shapes who we are today. The Church has had a huge influence in European history.
Take out religion ie no God no one thinks about God no one gets together and talks about etc.
Would things be better?
John Lennon thought so. "Imagine there's no heaven"
Would we be a different culture?
Maybe religion is just for all the deathophobes.
- Status
