The utensil up that is the east coast energy market
- Thread starter Kwality
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- Jan 12, 2011
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I'm against the government "purchasing" "green energy" so they can claim they are 100% renewable.
a) Its a lie, its virtual storage. On a still night when they use energy they are burning coal, but they take it off their carbon account and give it to someone who is using electricity on a sunny windy day.
b) It drives up the cost of "green electricity" which makes Victoria less attractive for businesses and corporations who may have such a requirement from their corporate heads or shareholders.
There is an official carbon factor for the grid. ( fairly well hidden ).
So in the last w years its come down from 1.13 to 1.06. If it actually reflected the amount of carbon in the grid , it would be more like 0.79
That's a very small change for a state that keeps bragging about the amount of renewable electricity they are adding.
I can only think that the renewable component is being bought up by government entities ( and some corporates ).
The stupid thing is that where government ( including local gov ) spend taxpayer funds to purchase green electricity they are simply throwing the money away to make themselves sound better. The amount of renewable generated doesn't change, they just pay government money for the rights to claim a share of the renewable. ( Possibly generated on our rooftops ).
Use the money to make the grid greener you assholes.
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I don’t think this is anything about purchasing green energy. My understanding is that it is about the government building and owning wind and solar farms and batteries.
Most entities claiming 100% renewable are buying green electricity for their own operation ( ie their office ). I tend to consider that's what the case is unless they state otherwise.
Renewable Energy Companies Australia | 'Greenest' Energy Provider - Canstar Blue
Many electricity providers want to be seen as green, despite using non-renewable energy. We review Australia’s greenest energy companies.
Renewable Reality Check
Whatever a renewable energy company’s credentials are, it’s important to understand that there is no perfect green energy company, not least because no energy company in Australia can claim to only sell renewable power. The reality is that all retailers sell electricity from an energy grid made up of both clean and dirty energy, so even if you wanted to, you can’t opt in to only buy renewable energy. The best you can do is support one or more of the renewable energy initiatives that are available. (Some companies have previously given customers the impression they only sell green energy and it’s got them into big trouble!).
How is that going to drive costs down, the wholesale price of electricity when its windy and sunny is close to zero?
People are already building those.
What we really need the government to build is world standard gas power plants, that they are happy to have sitting idle when renewables are available.
These are what no-one wants to invest in.
Now i'm imagining i'm someone inclined to invest in a wind farm or solar farm.
The government have just announced they are going to go into competition with me.
OK ...i actually want to make some money from my investment , or at least not lose a crap load.
Do i wonder...what if the government, my competition don't have such scruples. Will they drive the profits in the sector down?
I am not less inclined to invest in a wind farm or solar farm.
How ethical is it for the government to open up any business in competition to private enterprise?
We could have Government owned motor repair shops, to stop the escalating cost of car maintenance, simply running at a loss ( taxpayer funded ) to achieve their aims.
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Gralin
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- #759
look you can s**t on it all you want but I'd rather see governments directly investing in infrastructure than outsourcing to companies that do it for profit
at least if the Government is getting a return on an investment the money can be used within the state for the benefit of people
the SEC should never have been sold off and split up, its was so ******* stupid, they got rid of income generating assets, essential services shouldn't be for profit
personally I'd prefer they just ******* nationalised it and pissed off all the leeches but that's not going to happen
Rooftop solar sends Victorian power prices to zero every day for two months
AEMO’s latest quarterly energy report highlights more negative pricing events, and an average daytime price in Victoria of zero over two months.
reneweconomy.com.au
As an investor why would i go into competition against the government , in an industry already offering low returns? Dan is going to stop people from investing in renewable infrastructure.
I agree with you about the SEC.
Not shitting on it, but its got to be all or nothing. You can't have a not for profit government entity competing with privateers.
We're seriously heading on a highway to shitsville.
Loy Yang being closed down, not because its unprofitable , but because the owners don't like the vibe.
Apart from countries that have a high glacier to human ratio, there is no demonstrable model for 100% renewable. Nowhere. They use gas /coal/ nuclear to fill the void. We can't buy nuclear from france. Its lights out.
( Though i suspect that someone in Queensland or NSW with more brains than Dan will sell us the electricity, of course at ludicrously high prices ).
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Gralin
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i like how you're acting like this is why we're currently ****ed and not decades of inaction from governments at all levels, no its now that someone is trying to do something that we have a problemRooftop solar sends Victorian power prices to zero every day for two months
AEMO’s latest quarterly energy report highlights more negative pricing events, and an average daytime price in Victoria of zero over two months.
As an investor why would i go into competition against the government , in an industry already offering low returns? Dan is going to stop people from investing in renewable infrastructure.
I agree with you about the SEC.
Not shitting on it, but its got to be all or nothing. You can't have a not for profit government entity competing with privateers.
We're seriously heading on a highway to shitsville.
Loy Yang being closed down, not because its unprofitable , but because the owners don't like the vibe.
Apart from countries that have a high glacier to human ratio, there is no demonstrable model for 100% renewable. Nowhere. They use gas /coal/ nuclear to fill the void. We can't buy nuclear from france. Its lights out.
( Though i suspect that someone in Queensland or NSW with more brains than Dan will sell us the electricity, of course at ludicrously high prices ).
The reason we have base load generated from Coal Burning power stations is due to inaction from governments at all levels.
The Coal is NOT causing high prices.
The new problem is shutting down the coal burning power stations without having replacement capacity.
Only building wind and solar capacity won't alter that .
Building current technology Batteries will only help in a minor way.
I'm really not looking forward to growing old in a world where i can't heat a house in winter.
I like this if it is done properly.
Kennett privatise the SEC which is fine. Vic got paid, sorted out their debt but it has ended with consumers getting fleeced for billions and the infrastructure run into the ground.
Government are going to have pick up the pieces and tax payers are going to have to pay.
So Tax payers might as well own a stake.
You could apply this to QANTAS (Jetstar) as well which tax payers seem to be endlessly subsidising just for the campaigners to cancel every flight possible on us.
Privatisation is a nice sugar hit. But that is about it.
The SEC was one of the most horrid inefficient organisations possible. If it still existed in the form it was in at the time Electricity would not be cheaper. I don't know why the government can't have an efficient organisation.
BUT:
The privatisation is garbage as well.
When they privatised people were warned that we could easily fall into the pattern that had emerged in California, where no efficient base load was being built. Rather, companies were doing anything they could to produce electricity with minimum investment. Lots of cheap inefficient gas turbines. These factors had been pushing the cost of energy upward in California.
Of course it would be stupid to learn from others mistakes. True to form, the "Peaking" power stations previously owned by the SEC were run continuously. Where there was insufficient gas available they ran them on oil. Second hand gas turbines were even purchased from New Zealand, turbines that New Zealand had judged too inefficient and poor for the environment to use. ( Currently owned by Snowy Hydro ).
We could look to Europe to work out the best way of maintaining a power supply while decarbonising. But once again we are clearly way too smart to learn from others mistakes, and the sun and wind are like free right?
When the SEC was privatised union membership in Australia was close to 50% and the whole thing was crazy labour intensive.
What comes next is going to be technology intensive with a workforce that is close to 15% unionised and still falling.
They are not even close to comparable.
And I would guess that even if the old SEC was "one of the most horrid inefficient organisations possible" their actual contribution was still created than any large bank/insurance form/Telco who are all chock full of people filling time on SFA.
The entire premise that the public sector is inefficient and the private sector can do things more efficiently is frankly bogus. We have seen this the last 10 years with the coalition government throwing endless amounts of money at fossil fuels to prop it up (with zero return - not even meaningful tax or royalties) and when the s**t hits the fan completely the losses of these companies simply gets socialised.
Like I said, if tax payers are going to be on the hook, they might as well have a stake.
Having experienced and observed it first hand on a number of occasions i would totally disagree. I agree that the Unions had a lot to do with it, and my comment would be is that they shat in their own bed, the beds of their children and the beds off all of Victorians. It took things way beyond decent pay and fair working conditions.
1: An apprentice complaining that he didn't do anything except sit on his toolbox for the first week.
2: Systematic " home work " and theft culture. Someone building a wooden piece of furniture at work would be ignored by people at all levels. Theft was blatant, large scale and ignored. Need new tyres for your Land Cruiser, no problemo.
3: Inefficient work practises. Beds in the workplace. People on standby for maintenance would be paid a full shift to go to work, where they would sleep in a bed unless something went wrong.
4: Uncoordinated inflexible demarcation. Tradesmen or engineers might wait half a day for someone , example a rigger , to perform a small job like fastening a D Shackle.
No exaggeration there , it was despicable.
There were plenty of stories , that i believe, that are way worse than what i witnessed.
My wife used to work for a large bank in various roles. I think your impression of them isn't very accurate.
How exactly is a power company 100% renewable? This is the same sort of BS that Coles and Woolies are pedaling at the moment.
Yes - You may have CAPACITY to operate at 100% renewable at points in time, but not all the time.
It's such a con...
I can't see how they can do it ethically.
We were state owned. But now we are privatised.
How can the government , a non-profit making entity , now compete fairly against the private entities.
Gralin
Super Moderator
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- #771
again power generation
you can be 100% renewable as a power generator if you only own and operate renewable plants, as in the power you generate is 100% renewable
do you argue that a wind farm or solar farm isn't 100% renewable power?
because that's what you're arguing here
You're right, they can be 100% renewable as a power generator only. I hope they're ready to be in it for the long-haul, how do they plan on attracting private investment for other projects (or as co-contributors to the projects they invest in) if “Those power stations won’t be for profit, they’ll be for people. They’ll be not owned by a private company. They’ll be owned by everyone. Everyone will benefit from that.”?
SEC , We will supply your electricity needs.
if the sun is shining or the wind is blowing.
if the sun is shining or the wind is blowing.
Exactly, the government investing in electricity generation will motivate private entities to bail out.
- Jun 20, 2011
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The transition to renewables really isn't that complicated. It just needs time, money and a cohesive policy response from government.
1) Over-build renewable generation capacity with a diversified sources of generation (hydro, solar, onshore wind, offshore wind) with as much geographic spread as possible to minimise demand for energy storage. It will be generally some sunny or windy somewhere. If you have installed capacity equal to 500% peak demand, then you only to be operating at 20% capacity or less to meet demand.
2) Invest in electricity storage (e.g. Battery and Pumped Hydro) to meet demand 99% of the time (aiming for 100% would be economically and environmentally inefficient).
3) Maintain emergency gas-powered generators to cover any supply shortfalls. These would only be operated as a last resort and would be funded using an availability payment system.
1) Over-build renewable generation capacity with a diversified sources of generation (hydro, solar, onshore wind, offshore wind) with as much geographic spread as possible to minimise demand for energy storage. It will be generally some sunny or windy somewhere. If you have installed capacity equal to 500% peak demand, then you only to be operating at 20% capacity or less to meet demand.
2) Invest in electricity storage (e.g. Battery and Pumped Hydro) to meet demand 99% of the time (aiming for 100% would be economically and environmentally inefficient).
3) Maintain emergency gas-powered generators to cover any supply shortfalls. These would only be operated as a last resort and would be funded using an availability payment system.
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