Time For A Rookie List Rethink

[Markfs]

The current recruiting strategies are not working. The strategy of trying to "cheat" and recruit athletes from other sports has not delivered results. The strategy of targetting irish footballers has provided limited success. I am unsure of the amount of work that goes into organising these players and then training them in the necessary skills, but the results are just not there.

We need recruiting staff to swallow their pride and look at players in the lower leagues that missed out on being drafted initially. We need to dump out the cat B rookies and fill the rookie spots with kids rejected in their drafts, but who have gone on to play footy in the VFL, or the SANFL or the WAFL or the other state leagues.

Beyond the fact that these players have demonstrated that they can play footy with men, these players have demonstrated the persistence needed to make it at the top level. The evidence is demonstrated in Mihocek, but other teams are now gaining the benefits of mature aged recruitment.

I know people will say that we're already doing it with Mihocek and Dean, but we need to do more. We need to fill the rookie list with them. We need to push out all the staff who are involved with teaching and housing and mentoring overseas players, and replace them with people who can help footballers become better footballers. I'm sick of the gimmicks. There are footballers who are playing outside the AFL, who should be on our list....and we need to draft them before other clubs.

 

[domus]

I'm sure there are a number of diamonds in the rough in the VFL and country leagues. I'd prefer to hunt them down rather than persist with basketballers and Gaelic footballers.

 

[The Royal Sampler]

The main argument I can see against the OP is that players in the lower leagues can’t be put on the category B list.

Cox, the irish boys for the most part, Wilson, Roo when he’s even on a list… they are not taking up space that an overlooked VFL player could occupy.

I do agree that we’ve overrated athleticism in talls and underrated it in our smalls and mediums. Our big boys need to know how to mark, where to lead and how to impose themselves on a contest. Our smaller guys need to be able to spread and find space.

 

[35Daicos]

The current recruiting strategies are not working. The strategy of trying to "cheat" and recruit athletes from other sports has not delivered results. The strategy of targetting irish footballers has provided limited success. I am unsure of the amount of work that goes into organising these players and then training them in the necessary skills, but the results are just not there.

We need recruiting staff to swallow their pride and look at players in the lower leagues that missed out on being drafted initially. We need to dump out the cat B rookies and fill the rookie spots with kids rejected in their drafts, but who have gone on to play footy in the VFL, or the SANFL or the WAFL or the other state leagues.

Beyond the fact that these players have demonstrated that they can play footy with men, these players have demonstrated the persistence needed to make it at the top level. The evidence is demonstrated in Mihocek, but other teams are now gaining the benefits of mature aged recruitment.

I know people will say that we're already doing it with Mihocek and Dean, but we need to do more. We need to fill the rookie list with them. We need to push out all the staff who are involved with teaching and housing and mentoring overseas players, and replace them with people who can help footballers become better footballers. I'm sick of the gimmicks. There are footballers who are playing outside the AFL, who should be on our list....and we need to draft them before other clubs.

This seems to be a favourite topic of yours! Though I do agree that we should always be on the lookout for more Mihocek/Dean type rookie recruits. We can have a maximum of 6 Category A Rookies (that's what we currently have), as well as a maximum of 2 Category B Rookies. If you don't have any Cat. B's at all you aren't all of a sudden allowed to have 8 Cat. A Rookies, you're still stuck with 6 at the most! The current composition of our Cat. A list is fine as far as I'm concerned, and not far off what you seem to be calling for:
Begg
Chugg
Dean
Ginnivan
Johnson
Noble

All of those players were raised on our game, and recruited as footballers, not Irish imports, or converts from another sport. Begg, Johnson and Noble were picked up in the mid-season rookie draft, having been overlooked previously (or being mature age), and the same can be said for Dean (Rookie Draft). I'd be disappointed if we didn't have at least one Cat. B Rookie at all times, as even though so many of them don't work out, some do and it would be a waste of an opportunity not to be trying somebody.

 

[Football God]

Wonder how many scouts the club has to go out every weekend and watch some of the best local league players out there, Maybe we do need more.

Saw on the tv somewhere and for some reason it’s just been stuck in my head - I think it was Tom Hawkins

26

Tom Hawkins

Age

35

Ht

197cm

Wt

105kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

12.2

3star

K

7.9

3star

HB

4.4

3star

M

5.5

5star

T

1.9

4star

G

2.1

5star

D

12.7

3star

K

8.6

3star

HB

4.1

3star

M

5.1

5star

T

2.1

3star

G

1.6

5star

D

7.8

2star

K

5.6

3star

HB

2.2

2star

M

4.2

4star

T

1.0

3star

G

2.2

5star

talking about how they were trying keep quiet on Tom Stewart before he was drafted, now he’s one of the best interceptiors in the game.

Just found this article, Apparently there was a few clubs interested but forced his hand in staying in Geelong.

AFL 2021: How Geelong Cats’ Tom Stewart slipped to pick 40 in the draft

amp.theage.com.au

 

[Markfs]

This seems to be a favourite topic of yours! Though I do agree that we should always be on the lookout for more Mihocek/Dean type rookie recruits. We can have a maximum of 6 Category A Rookies (that's what we currently have), as well as a maximum of 2 Category B Rookies. If you don't have any Cat. B's at all you aren't all of a sudden allowed to have 8 Cat. A Rookies, you're still stuck with 6 at the most! The current composition of our Cat. A list is fine as far as I'm concerned, and not far off what you seem to be calling for:
Begg
Chugg
Dean
Ginnivan
Johnson
Noble

All of those players were raised on our game, and recruited as footballers, not Irish imports, or converts from another sport. Begg, Johnson and Noble were picked up in the mid-season rookie draft, having been overlooked previously (or being mature age), and the same can be said for Dean (Rookie Draft). I'd be disappointed if we didn't have at least one Cat. B Rookie at all times, as even though so many of them don't work out, some do and it would be a waste of an opportunity not to be trying somebody.

Fair enough. I'd like to see us forget Cat B entirely for the resources used on them. I also forgot that begg and johnson come under the strategy that i'm asking for so we are travelling down that path. I still think we could embrace it even more. I wouldnt be rookieing players straight out of school. We had success years ago but Derek seems to have lost that gift.

 

[Seedsfan]

Players play local footy because they aren’t good enough to play AFL. The chance of finding AFL quality players in suburban footy is next to zero

 

[manicpie]

Just get rid of Hine and problem solved

 

[35Daicos]

Fair enough. I'd like to see us forget Cat B entirely for the resources used on them. I also forgot that begg and johnson come under the strategy that i'm asking for so we are travelling down that path. I still think we could embrace it even more. I wouldnt be rookieing players straight out of school. We had success years ago but Derek seems to have lost that gift.

We do seem a fair way removed from the success story of 2010, where the likes of Maxwell, Toovey, O'Brien/Lumumba, Blair, Wellingham and Macaffer came off the Rookie List to be Premiership heroes. A couple of our current Cat. A's are playing senior football regularly, and 2-3 of the others may just get there as well in time. Some clubs are using the R/L largely for "list management purposes" these days, dropping players off the senior list and then re-rookieing them, rather than taking a punt on new, untried players, which is what that list should be all about. We've probably done a bit of it ourselves, but seeing Eddie Betts there last year made a bit of a farce of the whole thing. I think we are at least picking the right sort of player now, and hope we can turn up a few more gems.

 

[Tarkyn_24]

You need a blend.

We absolutely should be taking advantage of the Cat B opportunity for athletes from other sports that have traits that could set them apart in the AFL. The cost associated with doing so is minimal, low risk, high reward.

But for every “normal” rookie spot we should be taking the approach to find the best possible fit for our team and not speculating. Mihocek and Dean prime examples of the behaviour we should be modelling, your Ben Richmond’s of the world what we shouldn’t be dabbling in.

I have no problems continuing the international experiment and sinking resources into it so long as the cost to our list balance is minimised (ie. they sit external to the main list) until they demonstrate they are superior to the other alternatives for those main list spots.

 

[Markfs]

We do seem a fair way removed from the success story of 2010, where the likes of Maxwell, Toovey, O'Brien/Lumumba, Blair, Wellingham and Macaffer came off the Rookie List to be Premiership heroes. A couple of our current Cat. A's are playing senior football regularly, and 2-3 of the others may just get there as well in time. Some clubs are using the R/L largely for "list management purposes" these days, dropping players off the senior list and then re-rookieing them, rather than taking a punt on new, untried players, which is what that list should be all about. We've probably done a bit of it ourselves, but seeing Eddie Betts there last year made a bit of a farce of the whole thing. I think we are at least picking the right sort of player now, and hope we can turn up a few more gems.

i have no evidence except what i see but there seems to be a bit of arrogance associated with these recruiting depts ....and derek isnt the only one although he is a prime candidate.

I think all of the clubs could do more recruiting players who miss the initial draft. Kids grow up at different times etc. Someone like Bianco is ready to go in the draft year but doesnt have the physical attributes. I cant believe that there arent more footballers out there who are better when they're 19 or 20 or 21 or 22 or 23.

And while you like the cat b stuff, I ask myself how much time does derek spend on his world tours? How much time do skills coaches spend on cat b's teaching them to kick. And as we saw with the two recent irish guys, they go home. It's a lot of resources spent on supposedly getting a free hit.

 

[Markfs]

Players play local footy because they aren’t good enough to play AFL. The chance of finding AFL quality players in suburban footy is next to zero

thank god derek can identify the ones that are good enough....

 

[sr36]

Fair enough. I'd like to see us forget Cat B entirely for the resources used on them. I also forgot that begg and johnson come under the strategy that i'm asking for so we are travelling down that path. I still think we could embrace it even more. I wouldnt be rookieing players straight out of school. We had success years ago but Derek seems to have lost that gift.

Soft cap has meant that they're no longer doing the Ireland or USA trials. The Cat B we take in the future are more likely to be Aussie kids who are lured back to footy than imports.

In terms of rookies, we haven't actually stuck many with Cat A either recently - Mihocek, Noble and Ginnivan is about it from the last decade or so - might have missed a couple.

 

[Markfs]

Soft cap has meant that they're no longer doing the Ireland or USA trials. The Cat B we take in the future are more likely to be Aussie kids who are lured back to footy than imports.

In terms of rookies, we haven't actually stuck many with Cat A either recently - Mihocek, Noble and Ginnivan is about it from the last decade or so - might have missed a couple.

The combine is back and derek feels like a trip

Overseas Combine back on agenda after two-year hiatus

The AFL is considering restarting its overseas talent Combine

www.afl.com.au

And yes, having spots on the list is one thing and picking good ones is another. I am hoping that if we pick 6 mature aged rookies, we'll get at least one good one...

 

[sideswipe]

The combine is back and derek feels like a trip

Overseas Combine back on agenda after two-year hiatus

The AFL is considering restarting its overseas talent Combine

www.afl.com.au

And yes, having spots on the list is one thing and picking good ones is another. I am hoping that if we pick 6 mature aged rookies, we'll get at least one good one...

This just isn't an issue. The max number of Cat B rookies is 3, only one of which can be an Irish import. The whole concept is based on "attempted steals". Their base pay doesn't go to the cap. And International Rookie Scholarships are even less impactful to list management. It's really not a big deal. They aren't taking spots away from potential options in the lower leagues.

There are other things worth worrying about.

 

[Markfs]

This just isn't an issue. The max number of Cat B rookies is 3, only one of which can be an Irish import. The whole concept is based on "attempted steals". Their base pay doesn't go to the cap. And International Rookie Scholarships are even less impactful to list management. It's really not a big deal. They aren't taking spots away from potential options in the lower leagues.

There are other things worth worrying about.

I agree totally. Considering their total lack of impact, I think we should just forget about the time and money spent recruiting them. Just make things simpler and concentrate on an area which might deliver good footballers.

 

[sideswipe]

I agree totally. Considering their total lack of impact, I think we should just forget about the time and money spent recruiting them. Just make things simpler and concentrate on an area which might deliver good footballers.

Its only a problem if it takes time or money away from the more likely "areas". There is no indication it does. Not worth a thread.

 

[Markfs]

Its only a problem if it takes time or money away from the more likely "areas". There is no indication it does. Not worth a thread.

where in the bigfooty charter does it give a process to evaluate the worth of a thread....surely a legal eagle like yourself would have analysed the "legislation".

On my part, i've never said anything derrogatory about your word association thread....

 

[piesaregreat]

Blair was one of those recruits and half of Collingwood supporters hated him

 

[Markfs]

Blair was one of those recruits and half of Collingwood supporters hated him

i'd be happy to get half the games out of an irish recruit as we did out of blair....

 

[sideswipe]

where in the bigfooty charter does it give a process to evaluate the worth of a thread....surely a legal eagle like yourself would have analysed the "legislation".

On my part, i've never said anything derrogatory about your word association thread....

What's my "word association thread"? As for where in the charter, it's next to the bit where it says posters are free to point out pointless threads.

 

[Markfs]

This was said in an article about Derek Hine on recruiting his last irish failures....National recruiting manager Derek Hine is the driving force behind the deals and continues to think outside of the box when it comes to spotting potential.

Derek...try looking in the box first ...

 

[Markfs]

What's my "word association thread"? As for where in the charter, it's next to the bit where it says posters are free to point out pointless threads.

oh i thought you were the one that started the word association thread....

 

[sideswipe]

oh i thought you were the one that started the word association thread....

Still yet to think of a thread worth starting.

 

[Markfs]

Still yet to think of a thread worth starting.

how about "All the reasons that I miss Alex Waislitz"