Time For A Rookie List Rethink

[Markfs]

So you’re saying our category B recruiting is secretly resourced from prison? Big news if true.

He uses that terminology when he refers to alex waislitz. He goes to the big house often for tea and croissants...

 

[Peter Sidorkiewicz]

I think the bigger problem is ignoring drafting key position talent in the national draft because we have a couple of tall internationals earmarked for the rookie list. Whether they are Irish or former basketballers.

Filling our list key position quota in VFL where the majority are speculative picks with less than 10% of having a meaniful career is absolutely a dumb approach.

"Lets not draft a key forward because we have an Irishman we want to teach to play the position". It was stupid reasoning and we are paying for it now due to our lack of quality key position depth.

 

[Markfs]

This is from the Roar...

For list watchers, several clubs may yet name Category B rookies, including Fremantle, Gold Coast, Hawthorn, Melbourne, North Melbourne, Port Adelaide, Richmond, Sydney and West Coast who have invited players to train on knowing they can use either Category A or B depending on the recruit.


hmmmm hawthorn, melbourne, west coast and sydney and richmond.....there's something that those teams have in common......anyone see the connection?

 

[Markfs]

I think the bigger problem is ignoring drafting key position talent in the national draft because we have a couple of tall internationals earmarked for the rookie list. Whether they are Irish or former basketballers.

Filling our list key position quota in VFL where the majority are speculative picks with less than 10% of having a meaniful career is absolutely a dumb approach.

"Lets not draft a key forward because we have an Irishman we want to teach to play the position". It was stupid reasoning and we are paying for it now due to our lack of quality key position depth.

i always work on the theory that if you dont want a baby to stick a fork into a light socket, dont give it a fork....

so keep international airline tickets out of derek's mitts... or dont recruit cat b's which have proved to be useless

 

[Markfs]

we all know derek.... he loves the limelight.... he loves to come out the doors and get asked about draft outcomes..... he loves to be invited into radio studios for indepths about his drafting theories.... he loves his little rules to draft from good families and to draft kids who are born late in the year...

if you give him an option of cat b's, he will come up with a theory of using it to draft talls....and guess what.... he did. of course, he did. It's his nature to come up with a theory like that. Most clubs would shake their collective heads in disbelief but derek thinks its an example of thinking outside the box.

And guess what, with the irish poodles back in their homeland, we now know it is a complete failure. So much for his little experiment. His chance to put together a strategy for one hour special on fox footy...

oh well... maybe there's some other quirky thing that he can put together to get some attention from people

 

[sr36]

we all know derek.... he loves the limelight.... he loves to come out the doors and get asked about draft outcomes..... he loves to be invited into radio studios for indepths about his drafting theories.... he loves his little rules to draft from good families and to draft kids who are born late in the year...

if you give him an option of cat b's, he will come up with a theory of using it to draft talls....and guess what.... he did. of course, he did. It's his nature to come up with a theory like that. Most clubs would shake their collective heads in disbelief but derek thinks its an example of thinking outside the box.

And guess what, with the irish poodles back in their homeland, we now know it is a complete failure. So much for his little experiment. His chance to put together a strategy for one hour special on fox footy...

oh well... maybe there's some other quirky thing that he can put together to get some attention from people

Can't believe you rejected the thread title: "Hine Out!"

 

[Gone Critical]

The current recruiting strategies are not working. The strategy of trying to "cheat" and recruit athletes from other sports has not delivered results. The strategy of targetting irish footballers has provided limited success. I am unsure of the amount of work that goes into organising these players and then training them in the necessary skills, but the results are just not there.

We need recruiting staff to swallow their pride and look at players in the lower leagues that missed out on being drafted initially. We need to dump out the cat B rookies and fill the rookie spots with kids rejected in their drafts, but who have gone on to play footy in the VFL, or the SANFL or the WAFL or the other state leagues.

Beyond the fact that these players have demonstrated that they can play footy with men, these players have demonstrated the persistence needed to make it at the top level. The evidence is demonstrated in Mihocek, but other teams are now gaining the benefits of mature aged recruitment.

I know people will say that we're already doing it with Mihocek and Dean, but we need to do more. We need to fill the rookie list with them. We need to push out all the staff who are involved with teaching and housing and mentoring overseas players, and replace them with people who can help footballers become better footballers. I'm sick of the gimmicks. There are footballers who are playing outside the AFL, who should be on our list....and we need to draft them before other clubs.

I think this concern stems from not realising what a poor return you get from rookies overall. Few make it. Concentrating on the couple of Cat Bs we have at any time concentrates your mind but you then forget to look at the bigger number of Cat A rookies that never make it. Competition wide. Cat As get easily forgotten.

Rookies, whether the come straight from TAC cup or U18 comps, from VFL/SANFL or WAFL or that various routes Cats Bs come from have something in common. Very few have a substantial AFL career. Have a look at the pick 13 and 28 results for the rookie dart over its time, the picks we used for Ginnivan and Chugg.

Pick 13 rookie draft - 23 players overall, 13 zero games, 6 played more than 10 games, 4 more than 50 and 2 100+. Zac Dawson and Leigh Harding who are the 2 all time greats from pick 13

Pick 28 rookie draft - 23 players overall, 13 zero games, only 1 player Dean Cox got past 24 games.

So for 46 players picked we get 1 champ, 2 worthwhile jouneymen and 2 other 50 gamers. Ginnivan may turn into the 2nd best ever pick 13/28. It would also make you thing 78 game Mason Cox with 98 goals is a wild success for what you could reasonably expect.

I suspect it would be very similar if you were to check out other picks. The only real way to tell if our strategy is flawed is to dig down further and see if we are behind the pack in relation to other clubs in successfully finding rookies. Until you do that you have no idea if our strategy is flawed.

 

[Jasper84]

This is from the Roar...

For list watchers, several clubs may yet name Category B rookies, including Fremantle, Gold Coast, Hawthorn, Melbourne, North Melbourne, Port Adelaide, Richmond, Sydney and West Coast who have invited players to train on knowing they can use either Category A or B depending on the recruit.


hmmmm hawthorn, melbourne, west coast and sydney and richmond.....there's something that those teams have in common......anyone see the connection?

Is it that they were all picked from the group by your selective bias?

 

[Markfs]

I think this concern stems from not realising what a poor return you get from rookies overall. Few make it. Concentrating on the couple of Cat Bs we have at any time concentrates your mind but you then forget to look at the bigger number of Cat A rookies that never make it. Competition wide. Cat As get easily forgotten.

Rookies, whether the come straight from TAC cup or U18 comps, from VFL/SANFL or WAFL or that various routes Cats Bs come from have something in common. Very few have a substantial AFL career. Have a look at the pick 13 and 28 results for the rookie dart over its time, the picks we used for Ginnivan and Chugg.

Pick 13 rookie draft - 23 players overall, 13 zero games, 6 played more than 10 games, 4 more than 50 and 2 100+. Zac Dawson and Leigh Harding who are the 2 all time greats from pick 13

Pick 28 rookie draft - 23 players overall, 13 zero games, only 1 player Dean Cox got past 24 games.

So for 46 players picked we get 1 champ, 2 worthwhile jouneymen and 2 other 50 gamers. Ginnivan may turn into the 2nd best ever pick 13/28. It would also make you thing 78 game Mason Cox with 98 goals is a wild success for what you could reasonably expect.

I suspect it would be very similar if you were to check out other picks. The only real way to tell if our strategy is flawed is to dig down further and see if we are behind the pack in relation to other clubs in successfully finding rookies. Until you do that you have no idea if our strategy is flawed.

mate, if i was going to work that hard, i'd want the cash....

i've got the mason cox thing put to me a few times. if you think he's worth all the resources and the dilution of focus, then fair enough.

I posted a recent post where all the premiership teams since the beginning of the milennia bar the western bulldogs and probably the bombers have stayed clear of cat bs.... if that isnt enough....eh

 

[Markfs]

Is it that they were all picked from the group by your selective bias?

you win the prize.... second prize to the guy who said that they all won premierships since 2000

 

[Markfs]

Can't believe you rejected the thread title: "Hine Out!"

sorry. timothy is doing the selections from now on. Evidently he has the pedigree

 

[Gone Critical]

mate, if i was going to work that hard, i'd want the cash....

i've got the mason cox thing put to me a few times. if you think he's worth all the resources and the dilution of focus, then fair enough.

I posted a recent post where all the premiership teams since the beginning of the milennia bar the western bulldogs and probably the bombers have stayed clear of cat bs.... if that isnt enough....eh

So forget any real analysis, grand claims and a few meaningless but attractive stats, the old "no or nearly no flag teams" usually works a treat, is the basis.

I get it , I am guilty of the same at times.

 

[Markfs]

So forget any real analysis, grand claims and a few meaningless but attractive stats, the old "no or nearly no flag teams" usually works a treat, is the basis.

I get it , I am guilty of the same at times.

we're not here for analysis... it's like a conveyor belt... the widget appears before you and you add a few nuts and bolts and it goes off into the distance...

 

[Gone Critical]

we're not here for analysis... it's like a conveyor belt... the widget appears before you and you add a few nuts and bolts and it goes off into the distance...

Agree, but to accuse someone of lack of analysis is good nuts and bolts too.

 

[Markfs]

Agree, but to accuse someone of lack of analysis is good nuts and bolts too.

yeh and good to build street cred...but bf is a microcosm of life....it doesnt really matter much.

if someone hits me with research then i just concede....and say i'm stupid and everyone goes away happy

 

[Markfs]

of course the alternative is to ridicule that person....lol

 

[sr36]

I posted a recent post where all the premiership teams since the beginning of the milennia bar the western bulldogs and probably the bombers have stayed clear of cat bs.... if that isnt enough....eh

Your claim aint the most accurate though. Hawthorn have added international recruits and have recently loaded up with a couple more of your least favourite type - Irish folk. Cats have added a few Irish over the years. Sydney had an excellent premiership player from Ireland and a decent ruckman from Canada. Tigers added a bloke from PNG in 2012. Brisbane have added a few Irish. Melbourne pioneered it and considering the success they had, it's likely only been money that has stopped them from going much harder than they have since.

Have any of the good clubs not gone down this route?

 

[Markfs]

Your claim aint the most accurate though. Hawthorn have added international recruits and have recently loaded up with a couple more of your least favourite type - Irish folk. Cats have added a few Irish over the years. Sydney had an excellent premiership player from Ireland and a decent ruckman from Canada. Tigers added a bloke from PNG in 2012. Brisbane have added a few Irish. Melbourne pioneered it and considering the success they had, it's likely only been money that has stopped them from going much harder than they have since.

Have any of the good clubs not gone down this route?

well just shows ya how much you can trust that roar site....how stupid am i eh...

 

[Markfs]

Your claim aint the most accurate though. Hawthorn have added international recruits and have recently loaded up with a couple more of your least favourite type - Irish folk. Cats have added a few Irish over the years. Sydney had an excellent premiership player from Ireland and a decent ruckman from Canada. Tigers added a bloke from PNG in 2012. Brisbane have added a few Irish. Melbourne pioneered it and considering the success they had, it's likely only been money that has stopped them from going much harder than they have since.

Have any of the good clubs not gone down this route?

there ya go

What does the future hold for a rookie listed player?

Since its inception in 1997 the rookie list has created opportunities for footballers in the AFL that might not have existed otherwise. It has…

www.theroar.com.au

its 2 years old but my exhaustive research was exhaustive...

 

[sr36]

there ya go

What does the future hold for a rookie listed player?

Since its inception in 1997 the rookie list has created opportunities for footballers in the AFL that might not have existed otherwise. It has…

www.theroar.com.au

its 2 years old but my exhaustive research was exhaustive...

I don't know what you read in there that is relevant?

 

[Markfs]

I don't know what you read in there that is relevant?

thats because i sent you the wrong article.... but i know you're paying attention now

 

[Markfs]

i think we're over this topic anyway...

i remember a few years back when rodney eade came in to fill balme's spot at short notice.....derek hine was listed as reporting directly to the CEO. Evidently derek thought it was beneath him to report to rodney

which reminds me of what they said about melb when the afl went in to clear it up.... organisationally it was all over the shop... recruiting wouldnt report back, particular people wouldnt talk to the necessary people etc.

a sign of disfunction....

i think wright has derek under control now. i think the sourcing of johnson and kreuger indicates a different emphasis.... i feel positive

 

[Mollythedolly]

The main argument I can see against the OP is that players in the lower leagues can’t be put on the category B list.

Cox, the irish boys for the most part, Wilson, Roo when he’s even on a list… they are not taking up space that an overlooked VFL player could occupy.

I do agree that we’ve overrated athleticism in talls and underrated it in our smalls and mediums. Our big boys need to know how to mark, where to lead and how to impose themselves on a contest. Our smaller guys need to be able to spread and find space.

Definitely a flawed argument given those players in feeder leagues aren’t eligible for Cat B rookie list spots. Until they are, I’m not sure why we recycle this discussion every few years.

 

[Mollythedolly]

This seems to be a favourite topic of yours! Though I do agree that we should always be on the lookout for more Mihocek/Dean type rookie recruits. We can have a maximum of 6 Category A Rookies (that's what we currently have), as well as a maximum of 2 Category B Rookies. If you don't have any Cat. B's at all you aren't all of a sudden allowed to have 8 Cat. A Rookies, you're still stuck with 6 at the most! The current composition of our Cat. A list is fine as far as I'm concerned, and not far off what you seem to be calling for:
Begg
Chugg
Dean
Ginnivan
Johnson
Noble

All of those players were raised on our game, and recruited as footballers, not Irish imports, or converts from another sport. Begg, Johnson and Noble were picked up in the mid-season rookie draft, having been overlooked previously (or being mature age), and the same can be said for Dean (Rookie Draft). I'd be disappointed if we didn't have at least one Cat. B Rookie at all times, as even though so many of them don't work out, some do and it would be a waste of an opportunity not to be trying somebody.

Exactly. Be nice to unearth the next Touhey or Bliclavs but clearly it’s not as easy as we’d like. Just need to keep trying.