List Mgmt. Trade: National Draft selection no. 21 traded to St Kilda for Rhys Stanley and selection no. 60

[Vdubs]

Simpson is as slow as treacle, and I'd beat him in a 50 meter sprint whilst I was crawling backwards....that's how slow he is. Maybe it's his back issues weighing him down, because he was always slow but it wasn't that profound.

He actually isn't that slow, unfit yes.

 

[aussierulesrules]

Hey folks, happy new year. Here is a post from our board that may be of interest if no-one has mentioned all this on here previously:

Here's what the 2015 Champion Data Prospectus had to say about Stanley:

Ranked 2nd at the Saints for marks on the lead, inside 50 targets, marks inside 50 and goals.

Ranked 3rd for scoreboard impact and returned career highs for Champion Data ranking point, disposals, contested marks, goals and tackles.

In offensive contests he recorded the 2nd highest winning % of the 42 players in the AFL to be involved in at least 42 contests - ranked only behind Hawkins.

He won 148 hitouts, 51 went to a teammates advantage - the highest hitout-to-advantage rate of the top 50 players for ruck contests. Only 17 of his hitouts went straight to an opposition player - the equal lowest.

Looking forward to seeing if he continues his recent steady upward progression.

 

[Turbocat]

Hey folks, happy new year. Here is a post from our board that may be of interest if no-one has mentioned all this on here previously:


Looking forward to seeing if he continues his recent steady upward progression.

Thanks Aussie.
Now we know what it all equal's what are your thoughts Goddard <> Stanley and Cunico

Goddard would have been considered a great get 12 months ago with P21 , long term Key pos player
Stanley , a player mid 20's hopefully ready to perform to his capabilities , should give us a good 5 years of football and if he plays 80 games its a win
Cunico , an outside runner that some liked as early as in the 30's , some not all. Roll of the dice

 

[David the Cat]

Goddard and Cunico haven't played football at senior level.

Stanley has played significant game time, and has in recent times managed to play a couple of exceptional games against top quality opposition…..

Time will tell…..

 

[Moggy]

Time will tell…..

But, we need to know now!

 

[Jon Douglas]

It would be good if a trade we made paid off handsomely straight away !!!!

Hmac and Rivers had their fair share of injuries but I suspect, especially with Rivers, that was a good deal for us and him. It depends on how many games Hmac gets if his deal was worth it. But considering the costs they have been ok to good gets.

So I am really hoping that either Clark or Stanley come into the team, stay there (except for rests) and play some pretty good footy consistently. Blease I suppose could be an outside chance seeing he is ahead of McCarthy (injured) and Bates yet to play a VFL game ! He might get a game early on if he is fit and playing well in the NAB Cup and/or VFL.

Blease and Clark really have not cost us that much - only Stanley is the concern. Was he worth pick 21 ? It is not was he worth Bundy, because that is what effectively ended up happening - we swapped Bundy sort of for Stanley. And we all know 99 % of Cat fans would prefer Bundy to be at GFC than Stanley.

But what if Stanley plays ok - adds to ruck division or forward line ? He could be an asset - he should be fit and ready to go as well.

I still think it is more likely that Clark will have the bigger impact of these 3 players. He has the runs on the board and we are screaming out for a real CHF. We would just be so much more dangerous if we had a serious player at CHF.

But what the hell - I'll take anyone of the three if just one can get up and be genuinely best 22 by season's end.

 

[David the Cat]

Why is the Clark trade "bewildering" Bobby?

HE's an All-Australian, a quality player with great hands and a very dangerous foil for Hawkins up front. It should free Hawkins up a little as defenders won't be able to ignore Clark's presence, and it will take a quality defender to hold him.

My thought was that they would play Clark deep with Hawkins and perhaps have Stanley at CHF leading up field and opening up space for Hawk and Clark to utilize. Throw in Motlop, SJ, Kersten, Bartel or even Blease/Cockatoo (?) to deliver or run off the key forwards and you have a headache for other teams to defend….

They want to take pressure off Hawkins…Clark is an excellent option…and if he holds his s**t together, could be an inspired recruiting choice…..

 

[meto]

the Clark trade was bewildering to me. We must be aiming at winning the flag next year or perhaps the following year because Clark only has 3 years of solid footy left in him.
I can't imagine they brought him in for his expertise as a ruckman or forward which would greatly help the development of the younger brigade.
This also means we could possibly see the veterans play out most of the year in an attempt to go to the well one last time before hanging up the boots.

Clark did cost us a selection from the national draft as part of the 3-team trade. I'm not sure which, may have been a third rounder. If he's come into the side to play primarily in ruck, great, we have solved our rucking issues immediately but if he's here to play forward, that's going to limit the opportunity of one of the younger key forwards, something which again, it could set us back a little if they don't achieve the ultimate success in the coming 1-3 years.

The forwardline has been totally reliant on Hawkins for years, he and we most definitely need the assistance of another key sized player, Clark is an immediate answer to that problem as we seek to strengthen our scoring potential.
Something had to be done to improve our lack of potency against the better sides.

 

[son of meto]

The forwardline has been totally reliant on Hawkins for years, he and we most definitely need the assistance of another key sized player, Clark is an immediate answer to that problem as we seek to strengthen our scoring potential.
Something had to be done to improve our lack of potency against the better sides.

Our drafting has been right on the mark IMO. Clark is an immediate answer to the problem you identify dad. But what I love is the fact that also went and got Stanley to be the 'long term' solution after Clarke. Hopefully we solved our key forward woes for next five years in one foul swoop.

 

[FredLeDeux]

Our drafting has been right on the mark IMO. Clark is an immediate answer to the problem you identify dad. But what I love is the fact that also went and got Stanley to be the 'long term' solution after Clarke. Hopefully we solved our key forward woes for next five years in one foul swoop.

That's funny.

Stanley, of course, would only have to go to CHF in the long run if Vardy fails to make it.

 

[OzeSparky]

That's funny.

Stanley, of course, would only have to go to CHF in the long run if Vardy fails to make it.

With his injuries this is looking highly likely

 

[FredLeDeux]

With his injuries this is looking highly likely

Yes, it's possible, ACLs are statistically subject to high reoccurrence rates. He did, of course, fully recover from the hip injury.

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

Why is the Clark trade "bewildering" Bobby?

HE's an All-Australian, a quality player with great hands and a very dangerous foil for Hawkins up front. It should free Hawkins up a little as defenders won't be able to ignore Clark's presence, and it will take a quality defender to hold him.

My thought was that they would play Clark deep with Hawkins and perhaps have Stanley at CHF leading up field and opening up space for Hawk and Clark to utilize. Throw in Motlop, SJ, Kersten, Bartel or even Blease/Cockatoo (?) to deliver or run off the key forwards and you have a headache for other teams to defend….

They want to take pressure off Hawkins…Clark is an excellent option…and if he holds his s**t together, could be an inspired recruiting choice…..

Clark produced whenever he was on the park for Melbourne. That trade (essentially Varcoe/Lumumba/Clark - will take that every day of the week, thanks) was an absolute no-brainer. Considering the one-man band we had up forward in 2014 and considering Hawkins is now pretty clearly the best key forward we've had since Ablett, Clark gives us, on paper, the best key forward duo we've had in nearly twenty years. All of that stuff is really quite straightforward. What is intriguing/confusing/perplexing, is where Kersten, Walker and Vardy fit in, let alone Stanley, whom we secured after we'd already picked up Clark. Even without any player moves, I would have been expecting a very entertaining battle between Walker, Vardy and Kersten to play second fiddle to Hawkins and each would have had legitimate claims on the spot at this point of the preseason.

I really hope Stanley was picked up to be part of our next generation of defenders, because if he wasn't, he looks to be fighting Blicavs, Walker, Kersten and Vardy just for a spot in the side. He just didn't seem to fill an obvious need (in fact, he seemed to be exactly the sort of player that we have in plentiful supply), unless he can play in defence for us.

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

The forwardline has been totally reliant on Hawkins for years, he and we most definitely need the assistance of another key sized player, Clark is an immediate answer to that problem as we seek to strengthen our scoring potential.
Something had to be done to improve our lack of potency against the better sides.

It was fine until last year. The problem was we got rid of a quality AFL second key forward (Podsiadly) and a quality AFL small forward (Chapman) and, due as much to bad luck as anything (injuries to Vardy, Motlop and - early on - Kersten were killers), failed to get the same sort of production from the players that were expected to inherit those places in the team. Walker certainly looked like he would be a good chance to be that 30-35 goal a game second forward that we desperately needed all of last year, Vardy was pretty clearly expected to be and Kersten will be better for the experience he got last year.

 

[meto]

Our drafting has been right on the mark IMO. Clark is an immediate answer to the problem you identify dad. But what I love is the fact that also went and got Stanley to be the 'long term' solution after Clarke. Hopefully we solved our key forward woes for next five years in one foul swoop.

I'm only on line for 5-10 mins, the rest of the time I'm painting, honest!

 

[meto]

It was fine until last year. The problem was we got rid of a quality AFL second key forward (Podsiadly) and a quality AFL small forward (Chapman) and, due as much to bad luck as anything (injuries to Vardy, Motlop and - early on - Kersten were killers), failed to get the same sort of production from the players that were expected to inherit those places in the team. Walker certainly looked like he would be a good chance to be that 30-35 goal a game second forward that we desperately needed all of last year, Vardy was pretty clearly expected to be and Kersten will be better for the experience he got last year.

I think Walker's opportunity was very late indeed, but he showed hardness and ability to clunk pack marks, he has to find a spot somewhere somehow.
Kersten on the other hand is fortunate to be smaller and may invent himself as a medium forward, but he'll need to toughen to AFL a little more imo.

 

[bulletproof]

I don't think we overpaid for Stanley. Lets leave the Christensen part of the deal out of it, because that should not be linked directly.

Funnily enough, my concern is more, why did St Kilda agree to it? Given his age profile, his position and he seems to be a model professional I think it is a strange move to release him.

What are they seeing that we aren't?

They may well be desperate to get draft picks but Stanley is hardly old. Weird decision I reckon. I guess we will only know once we see him in action for Geelong.

I personally think our best deals of the off-season was Stanley and the move up the order to nab Cockatoo. I am very sceptical on Clark and the Christensen deal was unfortunate (not our fault).

 

[Teriyakicat]

The forwardline has been totally reliant on Hawkins for years, he and we most definitely need the assistance of another key sized player, Clark is an immediate answer to that problem as we seek to strengthen our scoring potential.
Something had to be done to improve our lack of potency against the better sides.

I was hoping that Walker would get a gig as the other 'go to guy'...
Not sure where he fits in but I really hope he can squeeze into the team.

EDIT- just read your post above:

I think Walker's opportunity was very late indeed, but he showed hardness and ability to clunk pack marks, he has to find a spot somewhere somehow.
Kersten on the other hand is fortunate to be smaller and may invent himself as a medium forward, but he'll need to toughen to AFL a little more imo.

 

[Teriyakicat]

That's funny.

Stanley, of course, would only have to go to CHF in the long run if Vardy fails to make it.

I'm picturing this:

 

[Teriyakicat]

It was fine until last year. The problem was we got rid of a quality AFL second key forward (Podsiadly) and a quality AFL small forward (Chapman) and, due as much to bad luck as anything (injuries to Vardy, Motlop and - early on - Kersten were killers), failed to get the same sort of production from the players that were expected to inherit those places in the team. Walker certainly looked like he would be a good chance to be that 30-35 goal a game second forward that we desperately needed all of last year, Vardy was pretty clearly expected to be and Kersten will be better for the experience he got last year.

You're in fine form this morning, MC- sorry about the 'likes'

 

[Jimmy Yamazaki]

I don't think Pods was the same after 2011 GF when he hurt his shoulder, so it's been a while since we had good KPF. Clark is a no brainer. I know he has had injury problems, but I'm happy with the risk because he's best is very good and I still think he can produce it.

 

[aussierulesrules]

Thanks Aussie.
Now we know what it all equal's what are your thoughts Goddard <> Stanley and Cunico

Goddard would have been considered a great get 12 months ago with P21 , long term Key pos player
Stanley , a player mid 20's hopefully ready to perform to his capabilities , should give us a good 5 years of football and if he plays 80 games its a win
Cunico , an outside runner that some liked as early as in the 30's , some not all. Roll of the dice

Not really familiar with Cunico, but if you look at some of my posts re Goddard prior to the draft, below, you'll probably get a fair idea of where I sit on the whole thing.

I thought what we got for Rhys and pick 60ish was fair and I certainly wouldn't have wanted to give him up for any less, as I rate him higher than most and have stuck up for him many a time, when others have bagged him, but my general thought all year was that if any club got Hugh Goddard outside the top 10, they would be getting a bargain. So I'm extremely happy with the end result, even though it leaves us with the question of who plays the back-up ruck role that Rhys was playing well last year (hence those stats I posted re his hit-rate in the ruck):

July 22:

Goddard is an interesting one. Has lots going for him, but had a disappointing champs, but then he was 2nd best for Geelong in his first game back there (ahead of McCartin, who kicked 6.4!) and from what I've seen of him he can definitely play and you can tell he just "has it" even if he's not producing it all the time.

Seeing him in the champs last year he made me think of a big bouncing, energetic, golden retriever!

He is tall, has really broad shoulders (so he ought to fill out really well into a strong unit), seems, as I said, pretty "bouncy", has a good turn of speed, has a really good sidestep, can mark the ball in a pack no-worries, can mark on the lead, has a good long left foot and I'd say has good character and leadership qualities and is obviously pretty versatile.

I'd still be expecting him to go top 10, especially if he has a strong finish to the season. Ben Reid went around 7/8 and I reckon he is a very good comparison. I'd be more than happy if we got him. He may be one of those types who has been tipped to go high from a long way out who struggles to stay motivated in his final year in the juniors but then produces pretty early once he gets into an AFL club. Being tall he probably won't produce as quickly as someone smaller, but relatively speaking he could be good pretty early at AFL level.

Will be very interesting to see where Goddard, Lever and Marchbank all go this year, as they are all rated pretty highly by the sounds of it.

Closer to the draft:

If Goddard slipped to pick 21 I would snap him up so fast it wouldn't be funny. He is getting ridiculously underrated in various places now, IMO, especially if what Knightmare says (that he had a hip op over the preseason, which could have greatly affected his season) is correct. He can play footy, has good athleticism and is a really good size. He wasn't widely spoken about for a long time (up until about a year ago) as a good chance to go no.1 in this draft for no reason.

If we picked up Goddard at 21 or 22 I'd be almost delirious. Tipped to be going to GWS with 6 or 7 though.

Bloody hell, if we get Goddard at 21 I reckon I'll whoohoo so loud you'll all hear it from wherever you are!

Hugh Goddard would be a phenomenal result, IMO, CHF or CHB for 12 years and is the type who I reckon could start holding down a position like CHB by the age of 20/21, like Goose, Talia, Carlisle, etc.
Can seriously play, is a great size and has terrific physical attributes. Meant to be a ripper kid, too and hardworking.

If the mail that Goddard ends up with us is correct I'll be ecstatic. Geelong going shorter and Adelaide potentially going with Langford could result in something like that happening.

Time will tell though of course and if Cunico ends up having a good career and Rhys plays anywhere near his capabilities then it will hopefully end up being a genuine win-win result, with both clubs getting what they wanted out of it.

As I've said previously, Rhys played by far his best footy last year when we were playing our best footy, so now that he's at a much better performing club it won't surprise me if he plays a bunch of good footy this year.

 

[aussierulesrules]

Funnily enough, my concern is more, why did St Kilda agree to it? Given his age profile, his position and he seems to be a model professional I think it is a strange move to release him.

What are they seeing that we aren't?

They may well be desperate to get draft picks but Stanley is hardly old. Weird decision I reckon.

I think it was pretty simple. We had long stated that we wanted 3 picks in the first 20 or so and were committed to that, so basically "someone had to go" and like with McEvoy last year, when we got an offer that we thought was reasonable, for someone who we considered good, but not "untradeable", we took it, as we really believed that we would be able to get someone high quality around that point of the draft and that they would be able to form part of our young group that we hope to take us back up into premiership contention down the track, and hopefully for a sustained run at it. We might have gotten 5-7 good years from Rhys, but now we hopefully get a dozen good years from Hugh, with him starting to enter his peak right around the time we are hoping to contend again, along with the likes of McCartin, Billings, Dunstan, Acres and so-on.

Who will play 2nd ruck for us down the track is a bit of a mystery though!

 

[Art Vandelay_]

I'm picturing this:

Thanks a bloody lot for that. Nice thing to see when you're eating lunch

 

[Pivo]

Bobby_, got no problem with you airing your opinion. That is how you feel and that is fair enough.

However, it has only really been recently that Clark's fragility is being brought up (I assume both body and mind).

However, up in Brisbane he strung together games (24 in '09, 19 in '10 and 17 in '11) playing a demanding role as mobile ruckman/resting forward.

It was his form over those 3 seasons that caused Melbourne to part with a reasonable pick and paid him good coin.

He played 11 games for 29 goals at Melbourne in 2012 (was Melbourne's leading goal scorer for the year). When I look at that and the fact he'll be the second foward behind Hawkins, I reckon he is a punt worth taking.

Vardy and Kersten have both struggled to stay fit for periods of time (Kersten's debut last year was delayed because he got injured at the start of the season and he also suffered injures the year before iirc). Which means, based on history, Walker is really the most robust of the 3 but is still very raw (but looking more and more promising).

Clark has just turned 27 and had a year off footy. I think he still has 4 or 5 good years in him.

Yes, there are concerns over Clark (both physically and mentally) but if he is fit, I think, he is a better foil for Hawkins this year (and possibly next) than any of Walker, Kersten or Vardy (based on their exposed form).

If nothing else, adding Clark probably makes someone like Kersten more dangerous as Kersten can play that leading, "smaller" 3rd tall against the 3rd best defender. Kersten's man might sweat off him to double team Hawkins or Clark allowing Kersten more freedom which could make him good value for touches since Kersten is a good shot on goal, even at distance.

Clark and Stanley, Vardy or even Walker could possibly interchange between 2nd ruck/forward as well - another option to look at.

Clark switching into ruck late in the game with someone like Blicavs may be an option, allowing the subbing of Simpson or McIntosh later in the game.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, lets not write Clark off before he has fired a shot in anger. He might surprise you.

I think the club and us supporters realise getting Clark has its risks but lets not write him off before he even gets out there (same with guys like Stanley and Blease).