Opinion We have a work rate problem not a talent problem

[BIGANT]

We could be off the mark here. But he looked spent a few times, and it didn't seem to be from some frantic effort he'd put in, other than running off the ground.
Yet, his stats "appear" to be reasonable. Just doesn't look anywhere near as potent as in previous years, and no taking on the game any more. And vitally, his elite speed seems way off his best.

Didn't i hear sometime over pre-season, think it may have been one of those video's on the cats website. That stevie tho over the knee problem from the yr b4, still had to manage his work load this pre-season whilst getting the miles into his body ? I'm sure i heard it on cat's tv....

 

[DanA]

Don't confuse inexperience with lack of talent or work rate.
Give the kids a chance ffs, same was said in 2001-2003 and look what happened after that.
Give.
Them.
Time.

I see them as a byproduct of each other. There is a lack of work rate which comes from inexperience just as their was in 2001-2003. The difference was then we had a core group of mids coming through. We don't have that right now.


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[iameviljez]

I thought our guys worked pretty hard until Norf blew it out in the last quarter. The stats showed our contested possies and tackles were right up there, we won stoppages (not centre clearances though) for most of the game. So work rate was good.

The reason Norf was able to get over us was talent, not work rate. Our midfield is C grade at the moment, and that's why we lost. To me it's more about talent (a lack thereof) than work rate at this stage. But I like an optimist.

Yes, this. They absolutely chopped us to pieces on the way back to the point whereas on occasion we just looked defensively naive. When we had the chance to attack on the turnover, though, we couldn't hit targets and break lines with the same regularity as North.

 

[Seeds]

Nah, we have a talent problem. Line up our midfield against just about everyone elses. Ours would be in the bottom 6 comfortably now.

On work rate not talent

 

[Seeds]

Against hawthorn, freo and North we all did quite well at the start of the game and died in the arse in the second. the Gc game was the only aberration to this. coincidence???

 

[Partridge]

We have a workrate and/or fitness AND a talent problem.

Our kids through to our middle age players are simply not good enough. We as supporters tend to overrate our own cattle. There's no Scarlett, Bartel, Ling, Chapman, Enright, Corey, SJ, Ablett et al coming through among this crop from what I've seen, not even close, so we're a fair way off another tilt at the flag.

Totally agree. We also have a discipline problem, a motivation problem, an ego problem, and a tactical problem.

Apart from that we're ok.

 

[Seeds]

Totally agree. We also have a discipline problem, a motivation problem, an ego problem, and a tactical problem.

Apart from that we're ok.

thats alot of problems. surely with that many the current way of doing things is untenable and immediate drastic changes are required.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Don't confuse inexperience with lack of talent or work rate.
Give the kids a chance ffs, same was said in 2001-2003 and look what happened after that.
Give.
Them.
Time.

I agree these young players need time .The issue with work rate and inexperience goes hand in hand .I don't think that these younger players have build up the fitness base and are truly aware of how hard a side has to work for 4 quarters to be the best.

 

[Whos_Your_Caddy]

I think we have a game plan problem more than that. I understand where we are at and that we are no longer going to be a given for top 4 anymore, but at present our game style just looks stagnant. At the end of last season I really thought Fremantle had missed their chance and were going to start declining (I realise they have a more talented list than us, just an example) but instead they used their off season to work on the game plan and instead of being over run by Port again, this year they outscored them in the second half. The bulldogs got a new coach and a new game style and after Griffen left and Liberatore went down with a season ending injury it looked a bit bleak but instead they are playing very attractive footy and look set to exceed most peoples expectations. It wasn't long ago that Port got Hinkley to coach and we all know how that turn around went.

Hawthorn year after year find a new way to improve their game and go again I feel like we are devoid of new ideas or afraid to try them. Adapt or die I say. I would much prefer us to play attractive footy and lose than stagnant, fumbly and nervous footy.

 

[maxy87]

Don't confuse inexperience with lack of talent or work rate.
Give the kids a chance ffs, same was said in 2001-2003 and look what happened after that.
Give.
Them.
Time.

This.

We also shouldn't discount the cumulative fitness gains over multiple pre seasons which many of our sub 50, sub 100 gamers simply don't have. So in this sense, it could be work rate but not from lack of desire.

When you're second to the ball and losing clearances on top of turning the ball over every second passage of play you often look slow or unfit.

When you're uncertain as to whether you'll win the clearance or whether your ruckman will win the hit out , it's harder to spread and run in front of the ball into space.

Remember in the 2010 PF when Collingwood absolutely obliterated us off the face of the earth in the first half? We looked pretty slow and unfit then, too. Truth is, we were just getting belted in general play.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

It also needs to be said that we our now a very selfish team. So many blokes playing for themselves. What made Geelong such a wonderful team under Bomber Thompson, there were few superstars. Every player in every position was so team-orientated, opposing teams couldn't shut down our better players without having Wojcinski or Kelly getting in on the act. Even new players such as Prismall, Hogan, Taylor knew their role and played it by the book.

It's almost like Port Adelaide today. They don't necessary have superstars, but they beat you in almost every position because they are so united and it's showing out there on the field.

What do you mean there were few superstars under Bomber Thompson ? More than Half the team was All Australian

Thompson had the following players under him

1.Ablett
2.Scarlett
3.Bartel
4.Johnson
5.Chapman
6.Selwood
7.Ottens
8.Taylor
9.Kelly
10.Corey
11.Ling
12.Mackie
13.Enright
14.Milburn
15.Mooney

 

[Hoffy95]

Yeh there's a few there.

 

[Bobby_]

What do you mean there were few superstars under Bomber Thompson ? More than Half the team was All Australian

Thompson had the following players under him

1.Ablett
2.Scarlett
3.Bartel
4.Johnson
5.Chapman
6.Selwood
7.Ottens
8.Taylor
9.Kelly
10.Corey
11.Ling
12.Mackie
13.Enright
14.Milburn
15.Mooney

I'm not sure if you remember back, but Geelong crept up on people. It wasn't until we finally won our first premiership did people really begin rating Corey, Kelly, Rooke, etc. Bartel was a star, but even then, it was the Brownlow medal which elevated his status, as people felt Ablett was a lock after his phenomenal rise from decent small forward to perennial midfielder of the competition in one year.
Our genuine superstar was Scarlett. He was already on his way to being compared to Silvagni by the age of 28.

Also, Mackie, Ling, Taylor, Mooney, Kelly, Ottens were never labelled 'superstars'. They were champion footballers, but I can't remember the media blowing their load over them as they did with other teams like Hawthorn for example (Franklin, Rioli, Hodge).
This is what made us such a lethal team. We were so even right across the board and never had to rely on any individual at a time.
Incredibly team-orientated.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

It also needs to be said that we our now a very selfish team.

Could that be a by product of both older players (some of them anyway) and the extremely young and inexperienced players having gone into self preservation mode. As in playing for their continued place in the side, as opposed to what is the selfless, team oriented thing to do?

 

[Jon Douglas]

Yes we need a better work rate but there are quite a few young guys that need to learn a few things as well.

I think it would help if we continued the transition so we are much better in 2016 - and firstly let us build a better backline - and stop the big scores against us. Yes we all know the midfield is the main issue but we need to do what we can to stop leaking so many goals while giving youngsters a go.

So how about -

Rivers Lonergan Bews

Guthrie Taylor Thurlow.


We are still tall enough to take any forward line, it has more than one option to close down a small opposition forward, it has more pace and run - and probably not a bad kicking unit coming out of the backline. And Guthrie will do very well down back (maybe his best position), Bews is showing a fair bit and Thurlow has been ok in limited exposure at senior level.

of course two names are missing - Enright and Mackie. Both will play senior games as well - just that we rest Enright a bit and play a youngster in his place and this is true of Mackie as well. Though Mackie might be used to effect on a wing or even a HFF.

The backline is over half replenished - which is helping to keep the transition going - and Boris will probably retire come the end of the season. So a full time spot opens up next season anyway. Perhaps Mackie on the Wing/HFF might also work and than another full time position down back becomes available to one of these youngsters.

Give this backline a chance - maybe half a season together it should work out ok I think.

 

[Chappycats]

Yes we need a better work rate but there are quite a few young guys that need to learn a few things as well.

I think it would help if we continued the transition so we are much better in 2016 - and firstly let us build a better backline - and stop the big scores against us. Yes we all know the midfield is the main issue but we need to do what we can to stop leaking so many goals while giving youngsters a go.

So how about -

Rivers Lonergan Bews

Guthrie Taylor Thurlow.


We are still tall enough to take any forward line, it has more than one option to close down a small opposition forward, it has more pace and run - and probably not a bad kicking unit coming out of the backline. And Guthrie will do very well down back (maybe his best position), Bews is showing a fair bit and Thurlow has been ok in limited exposure at senior level.

of course two names are missing - Enright and Mackie. Both will play senior games as well - just that we rest Enright a bit and play a youngster in his place and this is true of Mackie as well. Though Mackie might be used to effect on a wing or even a HFF.

The backline is over half replenished - which is helping to keep the transition going - and Boris will probably retire come the end of the season. So a full time spot opens up next season anyway. Perhaps Mackie on the Wing/HFF might also work and than another full time position down back becomes available to one of these youngsters.

Give this backline a chance - maybe half a season together it should work out ok I think.

I like this backline Jon and would be my preferred choice although I would like to see Kolo given some games for Lonners/Rivers at some stage this year. I also thought Blitz did ok back there at times but I actually like him as a big ruck rover. It's the one thing the MC has tried to really improve our clearance issues that I thought looked like it could work with a bit more time. Obviously needs to turn those big 1st quarters into full games but we looked a lot more dangerous.

 

[Teriyakicat]

Could that be a by product of both older players (some of them anyway) and the extremely young and inexperienced players having gone into self preservation mode. As in playing for their continued place in the side, as opposed to what is the selfless, team oriented thing to do?

It shouldn't be, NSFB. the best thing a bloke can do to retain his place in the team is play his role. Doing their best to do what the coach has told them to do, whether it feels right to them or not, is IMO what coaches like to see.
So, if Motlop has been told to KTFT every time he's inside 50, the worst thing he can do is second-guess those orders and pass the ball off to someone closer to goal- particularly if he gets caught between following his instincts and his orders and ends up fluffing it. So he certainly won't look team-oriented but it'll win him a gold star from the coaches on Monday

 

[Bobby_]

Could that be a by product of both older players (some of them anyway) and the extremely young and inexperienced players having gone into self preservation mode. As in playing for their continued place in the side, as opposed to what is the selfless, team oriented thing to do?

yeh I reckon you've hit the nail on the head there.
Still feel we have about 8 individuals who would not think about dishing off the ball to other players in better positions on the field. A couple of oldies and mostly newbies.

 

[Heckler]

Totally agree. We also have a discipline problem, a motivation problem, an ego problem, and a tactical problem.

Apart from that we're ok.

I have stated in all my match reviews
That some of our older stars look to be coasting to the line
They appear to go hard when there is a chance to win the game
Lift when an easy disposal is on offer
Otherwise they tend to conserve their energy
They seem to to pull the pin when the game is gone.
The team appears to play in bursts
However looks can be deceiving
This observation is made worse due to our lack of experience
Since we continually break down in our possession chain
Rarely able to string more than 4 clean disposals in a row
When hard running into position is unrewarded through skill error
Or through the influx of new players yet to jell together
The player generally drops his head in frustration
Naturally players lose confidence in running into position to receive
This leaves players stranded in no-mans-land
From the comfort of the grandstand this can look like lack of effort
When the team is not functioning in harmony it looks bad
The game plan looks stupid and undisciplined
Player frustration resembles poor ego

What can we do about this?
We can go defensive and cover our asses like a resigned bottom team
or we continue to play attacking football and get burnt occasionally
We will see occasional individual glimpses of brilliance
and less frequent times when the team clicks together
We are now in transition.
We will soon lose Bartel Kelly Johnson Enright Lonergan Stokes Rivers etc
It will be one step forward two steps back for the next two years
The fastest way through this is plough ahead
Keep debuting the kittens to see what talent they have
Assess every one at the end of the year
Get some good draft picks and Recruit young talent

 

[geelong_crazy26]

I'm not sure if you remember back, but Geelong crept up on people. It wasn't until we finally won our first premiership did people really begin rating Corey, Kelly, Rooke, etc. Bartel was a star, but even then, it was the Brownlow medal which elevated his status, as people felt Ablett was a lock after his phenomenal rise from decent small forward to perennial midfielder of the competition in one year.
Our genuine superstar was Scarlett. He was already on his way to being compared to Silvagni by the age of 28.

Also, Mackie, Ling, Taylor, Mooney, Kelly, Ottens were never labelled 'superstars'. They were champion footballers, but I can't remember the media blowing their load over them as they did with other teams like Hawthorn for example (Franklin, Rioli, Hodge).
This is what made us such a lethal team. We were so even right across the board and never had to rely on any individual at a time.
Incredibly team-orientated.

Defiantly I agree that most of those players were not rated highly as young players but from 07 onwards when we turned into such a great side ,I don't think any sensible person would of said Geelong was a side with few superstars .

Define superstars ? 9 players were All Australian with others to make the side in the following years , far more than Hawthorn had

Your comparing Geelong's 9-15th players with Hawthorns best 3 , Have a look at Geelong's best 6

1.Ablett
2.Scarlet
3.Bartel
4.Johnson
5.Chapman
6.Selwood

 

[Catsmaninamerica]

I am 100% confident that we are close to having enough talent on our list that with the addition of some topping up at the end of the year we can challenge for the premiership. The issue we have is work rate both on and off the field.

The bulk of our players can not run hard both ways for 4 quarters and after quarter time in every game this year our players have not been able to keep up with their direct opponent .We can set up defensive structures up the field but one on one we cant keep up with the opposition and we have too many tackles that are easily broken.

Its not just when the opposition has the ball but when we have the ball as well , not enough players get involved which reduces our options and also means that as soon as we lose possession of the ball the opposition is able to create an effective turnover as we don't have enough numbers around to put much pressure back on.

Bottom line is no matter what game plane we use ,how we structure up or what players we select we can not be a top 4 side until we develop the ability to run hard both way for a FULL GAME. Lets make getting super fit for 2016 our number 1 priority

THIS IS EXACTLY WHat said in the post game comments after round 2.

THey are fecking lazy. not untalented. Watch the way they refuse to run both ways. Or tackle. Its poop.

 

[Bobby_]

Define superstars ?

The Brisbane Lions three-peat team.

Did Geelong have a superstar full forward and centre half forward?
Did they ever have upwards of three superstar midfielders like Akermanis, Black & Voss?
Bartel and Ablett, yes, but Corey, Kelly were hardly superstars. Only until Geelong were on decline did Selwood surpass those other two.
That's my opinion anyways, you can disagree all you like, I just believe we were a very even team.

 

[tragiccat]

I know Im not the only one to note that we have lost 8 of the last 10 games.

Our reliance on the recent successful Plan A I assume is now off the table and the sweet victories of 2007,2009,2011 remain a powerful memory, but still a memory. Logically, the MC are now restructuring a fresh approach for another run in the coming years with a new game plan based on the skills of a new set of exciting players. But are they? Are we mainly plugging holes created by champion retirements or are we rebuilding.

I'm confused.

I keep hearing the term 'gifting games', but surely we need our new & young player list to build to 50-70 games asap.

There are some clever people at Kardinia Park at the moment running the whole show, but I'm not sure the importance of aggressively moving towards a new generation run at the Premiership is the priority.

I like the idea of giving Murdoch further chances - he may be a totally different player as he approaches 80-100 games. Same for Hyphen.

Bring in Gore & the others young turks now. If that means the Kellys of our team play the Magoos, then so be it.

What am I not seeing?

 

[Whit3y]

I agree these young players need time .The issue with work rate and inexperience goes hand in hand .I don't think that these younger players have build up the fitness base and are truly aware of how hard a side has to work for 4 quarters to be the best.

guthrie caddy smedts ghs murdoch duncan

the title of "young player" need not apply to them anymore.

 

[you pick one]

The Brisbane Lions three-peat team.

Did Geelong have a superstar full forward and centre half forward?
Did they ever have upwards of three superstar midfielders like Akermanis, Black & Voss?
Bartel and Ablett, yes, but Corey, Kelly were hardly superstars. Only until Geelong were on decline did Selwood surpass those other two.
That's my opinion anyways, you can disagree all you like, I just believe we were a very even team.

Bit rough not including Ferret in that mid field.