Opinion We have a work rate problem not a talent problem

[Cataholic]

It's interesting to hear Scott say in TTC that there is an internal debate about Duncan's best position.

This isn't the first time he's said that about a player in recent times, and suggests there's some divided opinion across the MC and coaching team, which might be permeating through and unsettling the team with mixed messages.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

guthrie caddy smedts ghs murdoch duncan

the title of "young player" need not apply to them anymore.

No but they are all 22 years old and played well under 100 games .Still not at their prime

 

[geelong_crazy26]

The Brisbane Lions three-peat team.

Did Geelong have a superstar full forward and centre half forward?
Did they ever have upwards of three superstar midfielders like Akermanis, Black & Voss?
Bartel and Ablett, yes, but Corey, Kelly were hardly superstars. Only until Geelong were on decline did Selwood surpass those other two.
That's my opinion anyways, you can disagree all you like, I just believe we were a very even team.

you are saying that a side with 15 All Australian players in it did not have many superstars ?

All those 15 players would of been top 100 players in the game
More than 10 would of been top 50
5 players who were top 20 in the completion Ablett,Scarlet,Bartel,Johnson and Chapman
We had arguably the best fullback of all time and the best player of the modern era

Brisbane are one if the greatest sides of all time but they had no more elite players than we did

Voss,Black,Akermanis,Lynch and Brown .If brown counts than so does selwood

But again Brisbane are a great side , one of the best ever no question

Can you name one side other than Brisbane that had more superstars than we did ?

 

[Teriyakicat]

I know Im not the only one to note that we have lost 8 of the last 10 games.

Our reliance on the recent successful Plan A I assume is now off the table and the sweet victories of 2007,2009,2011 remain a powerful memory, but still a memory. Logically, the MC are now restructuring a fresh approach for another run in the coming years with a new game plan based on the skills of a new set of exciting players. But are they? Are we mainly plugging holes created by champion retirements or are we rebuilding.

I'm confused.

I keep hearing the term 'gifting games', but surely we need our new & young player list to build to 50-70 games asap.

There are some clever people at Kardinia Park at the moment running the whole show, but I'm not sure the importance of aggressively moving towards a new generation run at the Premiership is the priority.

I like the idea of giving Murdoch further chances - he may be a totally different player as he approaches 80-100 games. Same for Hyphen.

Bring in Gore & the others young turks now. If that means the Kellys of our team play the Magoos, then so be it.

What am I not seeing?

If you 'gift' games to the young blokes despite them not being better than the veterans (and this is what I understand 'gifting games' to mean), you might as well turf out ALL of the veterans en masse- and do it now. Don't wait till the end of the season. The only reason they have gone through yet another preseason is to fight for the chance to play seniors. They didn't sign up for another year of pain to be shoved in the reserves, despite their form being well above that of some young upstart. They will fight harder for their place if they have good competition and this is good for both players, as they run neck and neck coming into the home straight. Eventually the younger will overtake the older but, until then, the old boys deserve their games while they still have their nose in front.

 

[Teriyakicat]

It's interesting to hear Scott say in TTC that there is an internal debate about Duncan's best position.

This isn't the first time he's said that about a player in recent times, and suggests there's some divided opinion across the MC and coaching team, which might be permeating through and unsettling the team with mixed messages.

Hmm... so versatility might turn out to be a bad thing?

I think that the MC have identified several holes in the field (yeah, we all know about the rucks and the midfield but I'm talking more about players to fill a role). They each might have submitted their short list of players they think can play the necessary roles and found that they don't have a unanimous player selection.

 

[Vdubs]

It's interesting to hear Scott say in TTC that there is an internal debate about Duncan's best position.

This isn't the first time he's said that about a player in recent times, and suggests there's some divided opinion across the MC and coaching team, which might be permeating through and unsettling the team with mixed messages.

Doubt it. These discussions happen at every team. Impossible for all members of a MC to be 100% unanimous about the single best role for each player. Impossible and unhealthy. So many examples to qualify and verify that but not really necessary, I hope.

 

[tragiccat]

If you 'gift' games to the young blokes despite them not being better than the veterans (and this is what I understand 'gifting games' to mean), you might as well turf out ALL of the veterans en masse- and do it now. Don't wait till the end of the season. The only reason they have gone through yet another preseason is to fight for the chance to play seniors. They didn't sign up for another year of pain to be shoved in the reserves, despite their form being well above that of some young upstart. They will fight harder for their place if they have good competition and this is good for both players, as they run neck and neck coming into the home straight. Eventually the younger will overtake the older but, until then, the old boys deserve their games while they still have their nose in front.

Cant argue against that logic. But,... the only benefit now of holding onto our veterans, at the expense of feeding games into eg Gore & Kolo in the short term, is to finish the season with an honourable 4-8 finish. Do we want that? Or do want to fast track 50+ games into these new kids, to finish top 4 within a shorter time frame?

A hard one.

 

[Turbocat]

It's interesting to hear Scott say in TTC that there is an internal debate about Duncan's best position.

This isn't the first time he's said that about a player in recent times, and suggests there's some divided opinion across the MC and coaching team, which might be permeating through and unsettling the team with mixed messages.

This is why imo , its dangerous to give out too much info...it can easily give this opinion. Id bet that type of discussion happens with lots of developing types , especially at Geelong as we do tend to pick ute types.

 

[Teriyakicat]

Cant argue against that logic. But,... the only benefit now of holding onto our veterans, at the expense of feeding games into eg Gore & Kolo in the short term, is to finish the season with an honourable 4-8 finish. Do we want that? Or do want to fast track 50+ games into these new kids, to finish top 4 within a shorter time frame?

A hard one.

I agree, it is a hard one. But don't forget that playing the young guys alongside the veterans provides an invaluable education for them. Right at this point in time, with players like Lonergan, Bartel, Stokes, Mackie and HMac missing from the team, things are panning out pretty much like some posters here would like it, with what I think is an acceptable ratio of young players to older players. As these older players filter back into the team, I would guess we might have another injury or two, plus one of Kelly, SJ, Boris, etc. might be getting ready for a week or two off. We need to steal a lot of games from the veterans in order to squeeze all of the deserving young talent into the side- I don't know how it can be done but hopefully the boys will all buy in to the plan and everything will work out.

However we finish up will just have to be how it is. I don't think the MC will actually plan for anything apart from putting the best team in each week, with some tough choices to make every week, as to which player offers more to the structure of the team at any particular point in time.

 

[Cataholic]

This is why imo , its dangerous to give out too much info...it can easily give this opinion. Id bet that type of discussion happens with lots of developing types , especially at Geelong as we do tend to pick ute types.

There'll always be some discussion about a players best position etc because it's human nature to have varying opinion, and resolving that debate satisfactorily, to achieve the ultimate success, is part of the job for Scott and the MC.

I'm drawing a bit of a long bow from just a few comments, but I get the vibe that there's quite a divide amongst the coaching group about some of these players. Scott has also implied that there have been times where he has acceded to the opinions of others and positioned players against his own opinion / judgement.

 

[meto]

Cant argue against that logic. But,... the only benefit now of holding onto our veterans, at the expense of feeding games into eg Gore & Kolo in the short term, is to finish the season with an honourable 4-8 finish. Do we want that? Or do want to fast track 50+ games into these new kids, to finish top 4 within a shorter time frame?

A hard one.

No, you just don't gift games to Lang and Cockatoo over SJ. Rotate the 2 to gametime Gore and Kolo.

 

[Cataholic]

Doubt it. These discussions happen at every team. Impossible for all members of a MC to be 100% unanimous about the single best role for each player. Impossible and unhealthy. So many examples to qualify and verify that but not really necessary, I hope.

Totally agree.

But as I just posted, I've gotten the feeling from a few of Scott's recent comments that the difference in opinion on a few players may be considerable.

But I could be wrong. That's happened before, and will again.

 

[Cataholic]

Hmm... so versatility might turn out to be a bad thing?

I think that the MC have identified several holes in the field (yeah, we all know about the rucks and the midfield but I'm talking more about players to fill a role). They each might have submitted their short list of players they think can play the necessary roles and found that they don't have a unanimous player selection.

No, I think versatility is a good thing.

Opinion will rarely be unanimous - I just sense there is a considerable difference amongst the coaching staff about best positions, and I'm hypothesising that if the players were to see that it may cause them some doubt.

But, I could be jumping at shadows.

Play on.

 

[tragiccat]

No, you just don't gift games to Lang and Cockatoo over SJ. Rotate the 2 to gametime Gore and Kolo.

Can't argue with that either. (But again) what if our current 8/10 loss run had been from Game 1 2015 and not beginning from the last part of 2014? Still 8/10. What pressures on the MC & playing personnel would there then be? At what stage would the coach be called in and at what stage would the leadership group start asking questions. Luv Kelly, Mackie, Boris & SJ, etc - as does everyone. Maybe we are actually gifting them H&A games at the expense of building experience into our younger group.

Remember the call in 2005? 'Plan A - play the kids. Plan B - refer to Plan A'

I will be there when Boris plays his 300th, and I will tearfully be there for our veteran's last games - whenever that will be.

There are at least 4 of our talented kids who haven't yet commenced there senior's run. Right now there is an opportunity this season to begin the first of their 12-15 games.

Having written all of the above, my personal non-practical view would be to allow our legends to make their own call re when they finish. But footy is about the next premiership, not what is already in the cabinet. The sooner our kids chalk up 50/70 games, the quicker our next premiership tilt

 

[Pollywaffle]

Workrate important but clearances more so. Also too many passengers- Hard to cover ground with baggage.

 

[SJ]

The Brisbane Lions three-peat team.

Did Geelong have a superstar full forward and centre half forward?
Did they ever have upwards of three superstar midfielders like Akermanis, Black & Voss?
Bartel and Ablett, yes, but Corey, Kelly were hardly superstars. Only until Geelong were on decline did Selwood surpass those other two.
That's my opinion anyways, you can disagree all you like, I just believe we were a very even team.

Brisbane's premiership team didn't have a superstar centre-half forward either.

One of the great myths in footy, and the perception which allows Jonathan Brown to be rated the best centre-half forward since 2000 (when in reality he is clearly behind Nick Riewoldt, and I would also put him behind Warren Tredrea) is that he was a star in the premiership sides. He barely kicked over a goal a game. His numbers in those premiership years were akin to what Hawkins was giving us in 2008-2010 (when everyone wanted him out of the side).

 

[Whit3y]

we have a talent problem, lets not beat off around the bush

 

[TheJimmyCartel]

we have a talent problem, lets not beat off around the bush

If you actually do think that is the problem, why does that not factor into your assessment and consistent potting of CS? Because, usually you're just blaming the coach with no mention that our talent might be lacking...I'm confused.

 

[FredLeDeux]

If you actually do think that is the problem, why does that not factor into your consistent potting of CS? Because, usually you're just blaming the coach...I'm confused.

Be fair, he slags off Wells all the time, too.

 

[Whit3y]

If you actually do think that is the problem, why does that not factor into your assessment and consistent potting of CS? Because, usually you're just blaming the coach with no mention that our talent might be lacking...I'm confused.

oh ive said our talent is lacking, and chris scotty has started the rotty

dont be confused on this matter

 

[Whit3y]

Be fair, he slags off Wells all the time, too.

his overated. still living from past glories

 

[dazbroncos]

It's what happens when dad leaves the computer on and walks away..

Go Catters

 

[meto]

Can't argue with that either. (But again) what if our current 8/10 loss run had been from Game 1 2015 and not beginning from the last part of 2014? Still 8/10. What pressures on the MC & playing personnel would there then be? At what stage would the coach be called in and at what stage would the leadership group start asking questions. Luv Kelly, Mackie, Boris & SJ, etc - as does everyone. Maybe we are actually gifting them H&A games at the expense of building experience into our younger group.

Remember the call in 2005? 'Plan A - play the kids. Plan B - refer to Plan A'

I will be there when Boris plays his 300th, and I will tearfully be there for our veteran's last games - whenever that will be.

There are at least 4 of our talented kids who haven't yet commenced there senior's run. Right now there is an opportunity this season to begin the first of their 12-15 games.

Having written all of the above, my personal non-practical view would be to allow our legends to make their own call re when they finish. But footy is about the next premiership, not what is already in the cabinet. The sooner our kids chalk up 50/70 games, the quicker our next premiership tilt

Firstly you must select to win games if possible, you don't play guys on a wish and hope especially kids that aren't performing over a near Brownlow Medalist who's probably our second best possession winner, big body etc, etc.
He may as well leave the club for the biggest offer if they're going to prefer the likes of Lang, Cockatoo, Gregson, Walker, GHS, Murdoch etc. It's a joke.

 

[Cataholic]

his overated. still living from past glories

Um, what??

He's extremely well respected amongst his peers for his judgement and nous......

 

[goodoldcats]

We have an development and coaching problem.