Ratten and Knights. Who is under most pressure?

[Merv]

After the article in the Age with Knights decalring they can win 12 games....he has added the pressure to himself.

At least Ratten has come out and said he expects an improve season, but didn't put numbers or finals as the expected outcome.

I know coaches. players, presidents all say we aim for finals, of course that is the business...but to come out and say 12 wins, and expectation to play finals....its only come back to bite previous coaches.

Knights to say that in 2007 Essendon had 10 wins and he can't see any reason why they can't get a few more than that in 2008...on word Mr Knights....HIRD!!

Might pay to have another read as to who said what.

http://www.realfooty.com.au/news/news/knights-looks-to-the-stars/2008/02/04/1202090323815.html

After the article in the Age with Knights decalring they can win 12 games

"I can't be straighter than saying if you're worth your salt in this league, you're aiming to play finals footy," Knights said. "If you're not here to play finals, don't bother turning up, don't bother coaching or don't bother being a captain.

So he didn't "declare" we can win 12 games, but has said we are aiming to play finals footy.

Aiming at something and declaring something, are vastly different.

Knights to say that in 2007 Essendon had 10 wins and he can't see any reason why they can't get a few more than that in 2008

Lloyd knows the forecast will contradict that of the average armchair expert.
"Yeah, and I know they thought that about the Kangas last year. You just don't know what can happen," he said yesterday after his team arrived in this northern NSW coastal town to begin a pre-season camp.
"We won 10 games last year and I don't see any reason why we won't be better off going into this season. So if it takes 12 (wins) to get there, that's what we're endeavouring to do because we haven't played finals for a number of years now and we all hate watching them.

 

[DarthTed]

How did you know?

Pressure comes mainly from supporters.. I'm tipping Essendon supporters wont take much to turn on an ex Richmond (not overly liked) player than they would over an ex premiership player. Especially the ones who protested that Sheedy should never have been axed and have a point to prove..
It would take a hell of a lot of disapointment for Carlton supporters to turn on Ratten.

Which has what relevance to whether the Essendon board understands where Essendon are at?

 

[Jamie007]

Which has what relevance to whether the Essendon board understands where Essendon are at?

Because they have appointed a coach who has told them that they can perform a lot better than what they really can. He sucked them in. They fell for it and will be made to look like geese especially when supporters turn.
He not only has built the boards hopes, he has built the supporters hopes up. The board clearly dont know where Essendon are at if they beleive they can win 12 games.. He told them what they wanted to hear.. Instead of the facts.. (which are bottom 4 material..)

 

[GuzzLG]

Because they have appointed a coach who has told them that they can perform a lot better than what they really can. He sucked them in. They fell for it and will be made to look like geese especially when supporters turn.
He not only has built the boards hopes, he has built the supporters hopes up. The board clearly dont know where Essendon are at if they beleive they can win 12 games.. He told them what they wanted to hear.. Instead of the facts.. (which are bottom 4 material..)

So the only thing that distinguished Knights from the other 20 or so candidates was that he promised the most wins?

Do you realise how stupid you sound?

 

[Jamie007]

So the only thing that distinguished Knights from the other 20 or so candidates was that he promised the most wins?

Do you realise how stupid you sound?

Put it this way, he would make a good real estate agent.. Tell the owner what they want to hear to get the listing...
If the owner is stupid enough to go with the one who tells them what they want to hear than instead of the truth then they get what they deserved.. Which you will..

Doesnt sound stupid to me..

He told them that their list was in a much better postiton than what it is.
Hardwick was always going to make more changes and said it would take longer.. They were just about to appoint him until the final day when Knights came along and told them this crap.

How about giving yr reason..
Or you can keep just saying I sound stupid..

 

[Merv]

Because they have appointed a coach who has told them that they can perform a lot better than what they really can. He sucked them in. They fell for it and will be made to look like geese especially when supporters turn.
He not only has built the boards hopes, he has built the supporters hopes up. The board clearly dont know where Essendon are at if they beleive they can win 12 games.. He told them what they wanted to hear.. Instead of the facts.. (which are bottom 4 material..)

Do you actually read what you type or just spurt out a whole lot of rubbish and move on?

You are saying that you know exactly what Knights did and said and exactly what the board were thinking and why they decided what they did.

Not only that, you are predicting the future with no room for error, you have stated as FACT Essendon are bottom 4 material.

The Essendon board don't know where we are but you do?

How do you know what Knights said?

Think then post.

 

[bomberstomake8]

Put it this way, he would make a good real estate agent.. Tell the owner what they want to hear to get the listing...
If the owner is stupid enough to go with the one who tells them what they want to hear than instead of the truth then they get what they deserved.. Which you will..

Doesnt sound stupid to me..

He told them that their list was in a much better postiton than what it is.
Hardwick was always going to make more changes and said it would take longer.. They were just about to appoint him until the final day when Knights came along and told them this crap.

How about giving yr reason..
Or you can keep just saying I sound stupid..

think about what you are saying... the essendon board are the head of arguably the greatest club in history... they are not amateur businessmen, they know what they are doing.. do you honestly think the only thing that distinguished knights from hardwick was their opinions of our list? they have a whole range of criteria in the recruiting process as every organisation does, its a long and painful process where they learn everything about their potential candidates.. essendon hierarchy didnt just think oh he thinks our list is better ill go for him.. it was a whole range of criteria which supported knights anyone who thinks differently is delusional

 

[pazza]

Put it this way, he would make a good real estate agent.. Tell the owner what they want to hear to get the listing...
If the owner is stupid enough to go with the one who tells them what they want to hear than instead of the truth then they get what they deserved.. Which you will..

Doesnt sound stupid to me..

He told them that their list was in a much better postiton than what it is.
Hardwick was always going to make more changes and said it would take longer.. They were just about to appoint him until the final day when Knights came along and told them this crap.

How about giving yr reason..
Or you can keep just saying I sound stupid..

Okay..so Knights may have commented about the list.

Would be relatively easy for him to do, when you take into account, he coached the list when it appeared at Bendigo over the last 3 seasons. That is what him the job in the end...player knowledge.

It is fair to assume that because he has coached a fair percentage of the list (probably close to 80%) in match conditions, he knows what makes them tick and what aspects of their individual games need to be worked on. Prepared to concede that point?

Ratten is under the same thing. again, he got the job because he had coached the list already..and would know more about the players than an outsider would.

Hence both are under no real pressure at all to perform.

 

[Lupton Warchild Pittman]

That is absolute rubbish.

Where did you pull that stat from?

Most are thinking we are a very rough chance to make the finals and are looking forward to seeing our kids develop and looking forward to our new game plan, or an actual plan.

Most know this season also has the possibility to become a long one if things don't go well on the injury front or if the youngsters don't improve as quickly as needed.

Your own coach just said he expects to play finals in 08.

He is really at a catch 22. Go out for a lower 8 position, no draft picks of note.

Lloyd, Lucas, Michael, Jason Johnson, Peverill & Fletcher all nearing the end of their careers. He has admitted short term thinking but in reality, he needs to focus long term.

 

[Merv]

Your own coach just said he expects to play finals in 08.

He is really at a catch 22. Go out for a lower 8 position, no draft picks of note.

Lloyd, Lucas, Michael, Jason Johnson, Peverill & Fletcher all nearing the end of their careers. He has admitted short term thinking but in reality, he needs to focus long term.

Your own coach just said he expects to play finals in 08.

Wrong.

He said our AIM is to make the finals not that he thinks we will.

There is a big difference.

Lloyd, Lucas, Michael, Jason Johnson, Peverill & Fletcher all nearing the end of their careers. He has admitted short term thinking but in reality, he needs to focus long term.

"That won't jeopardise where the big picture lies in injecting younger players into the midfield and defence, but when we step out, we step out to win.

Did you even read the article?

I notice you didn't answer where you pulled that stat from....you've even had a week to think of an answer

 

[Lupton Warchild Pittman]

Did you even read the article?

Yes, it was a fluff piece if I've ever seen one..

He may want to inject youth into the midfield & defence but he seems to forget Lloyd & Lucas, your 2 best players won't be around for much longer. Don't know who he thinks will take their place...

Reminds me a lot of Tony Shaw at Collingwood in the late 90's Knights.

Senior players taking the slack, all short term options, no forward planning in trying to acquire early picks to weather the departures of the senior players.

 

[Merv]

Yes, it was a fluff piece if I've ever seen one..

He may want to inject youth into the midfield & defence but he seems to forget Lloyd & Lucas, your 2 best players won't be around for much longer. Don't know who he thinks will take their place...

Reminds me a lot of Tony Shaw at Collingwood in the late 90's Knights.

Senior players taking the slack, all short term options, no forward planning in trying to acquire early picks to weather the departures of the senior players.

God, you are bad at this

Why will Lloyd and Lucas not be around much longer?

Lloyd is 29 and Lucas 30 they have 2-5 years left each and their replacements are on our list already, whether they are good enough replacements will be the question.

Senior players taking the slack, all short term options, no forward planning in trying to acquire early picks to weather the departures of the senior players.

It might be best if you stick to talking about your list as you have shown you have no idea about ours.

Knights hasn't coached a game, has cleared duds and older players and has drafted heaps of young players yet you say he is taking short term options.....

We have had early picks the last few years.....

You really have absolutely no idea.

 

[Jamie007]

God, you are bad at this

Why will Lloyd and Lucas not be around much longer?

Lloyd is 29 and Lucas 30 they have 2-5 years left each and their replacements are on our list already, whether they are good enough replacements will be the question.




It might be best if you stick to talking about your list as you have shown you have no idea about ours.

Knights hasn't coached a game, has cleared duds and older players and has drafted heaps of young players yet you say he is taking short term options.....

We have had early picks the last few years.....

You really have absolutely no idea.

Lloyd and Lucas might be around for 2-5 years but they are going to get worse not better over this time

And in clearing out some older players and drafting youth he still has said that he can make finals. He said in an SEN interview shortly after he was appointed that he thinks he has a better list than what is percieved and inferred that players had not been played in their best positions.. But he clearly said that they didnt have to "bottom out".. Unfortunately for Essendon I dont think he will have a choice. Yr list aint that great..
I dont need to leave myself room to move.. Bottom 4 is what I think. And I'll stand by that.
Now dont be too upset.. A measured approach is whats called for..

 

[Merv]

He told them what they wanted to hear.. Instead of the facts.. (which are bottom 4 material..)

I dont need to leave myself room to move.. Bottom 4 is what I think. And I'll stand by that.

Ah, i see, now instead if it being a fact, it's what you think?

 

[GuzzLG]

Lloyd and Lucas might be around for 2-5 years but they are going to get worse not better over this time

And in clearing out some older players and drafting youth he still has said that he can make finals. He said in an SEN interview shortly after he was appointed that he thinks he has a better list than what is percieved and inferred that players had not been played in their best positions.. But he clearly said that they didnt have to "bottom out".. Unfortunately for Essendon I dont think he will have a choice. Yr list aint that great..
I dont need to leave myself room to move.. Bottom 4 is what I think. And I'll stand by that.
Now dont be too upset.. A measured approach is whats called for..

The reason you have no clue is because you think the Essendon board are just sitting there and waiting for someone to promise them instant success.

That's not how it works. The board are the ones that know where the Essendon list is at and were looking to appoint a coach who understands this. That's why Knights got the job, because he knew the list better than Hardwick and numerous others.

If Hardwick had a more negative opinion about the list, then he missed out on the job because he was wrong and misjudged where we are at.

 

[Big Blow Hard]

Lloyd and Lucas might be around for 2-5 years but they are going to get worse not better over this time

How much worse do you think they are going to get?? Lucas is in career best form, Lloyd was firing in the second half of the year after coming back from major injury. They are not all of a sudden going to become liabilities. They will remain great players. I am sure both of them would step aside if they felt they were no longer able to compete. By then, it is hoped our last few drafts will be bearing fruit, so to speak.

PS: Brendan Fevola is 27, only 1 3/4 years younger than Lloyd. Perhaps Carlton should address its "Ageing Forward Star", and only forward star I might add.

 

[Jamie007]

The reason you have no clue is because you think the Essendon board are just sitting there and waiting for someone to promise them instant success.

That's not how it works. The board are the ones that know where the Essendon list is at and were looking to appoint a coach who understands this. That's why Knights got the job, because he knew the list better than Hardwick and numerous others.

If Hardwick had a more negative opinion about the list, then he missed out on the job because he was wrong and misjudged where we are at.

I will reverse the question then... How do you know Hardwick was wrong...
And to the others, dont worry.. Boards dont always get everything right,
I know that for sure.. Thats why the current Essendon board certainly wont be the last board to be voted out for making silly mistakes..

 

[Lupton Warchild Pittman]

Lloyd was firing in the second half of the year after coming back from major injury.

Lloyd is not the player he was. He is 1 Hamstring injury away from being gone as a FF.

Can't be a FF is you base your game around explosive leading and you have iffy hamstrings.

 

[Big Blow Hard]

He had one obviously shocking Hamstring injury that kept him out 2006. He got through last year with very few problems. It no doubt took the first half season to regain confidence in his legs, same with a knee reco or any major injury. I would hardly put him in the Buckley, Rob Harvey dodgy hamstring basket just yet.

 

[Donstuie]

I will reverse the question then... How do you know Hardwick was wrong...
And to the others, dont worry.. Boards dont always get everything right,
I know that for sure.. Thats why the current Essendon board certainly wont be the last board to be voted out for making silly mistakes..

I've already been through this with them. Apparently their board is incapable of making mistakes

 

[Big Blow Hard]

I've already been through this with them. Apparently their board is incapable of making mistakes

No, I agree. The board did not handle the whole Sheedy or picking a replacement well at all, that is for certain.

However, it can not be judged as to whether they were mistaken for a year or two at least. In there comical, farcical way, they may have got it spot on in the end. They are a great board, and great businessmen. But even great businessmen make mistakes. Look at Donald Trump.. Billionaire, Bankrupt, Billionaire again.

 

[Donstuie]

No, I agree. The board did not handle the whole Sheedy or picking a replacement well at all, that is for certain.

However, it can not be judged as to whether they were mistaken for a year or two at least. In there comical, farcical way, they may have got it spot on in the end. They are a great board, and great businessmen. But even great businessmen make mistakes. Look at Donald Trump.. Billionaire, Bankrupt, Billionaire again.

You're the only Essendon person I've spoken to here who can recognise the difference. All the others I've talked to think that it was all part of some master-plan or something. Kudos for honesty

 

[Big Blow Hard]

Well quite frankly, I was embarassed by the way things went down.
But I do believe they have made the right decision in Matty Knights.
As for Hardwick, well, we will just never know..

 

[Tigersman]

Definitely Knights under more pressure.

He's got the bombers believing their good enough to do something when he should have sold the rebuild message like Hardwick.
There's not much going on in terms of young blokes at the bombers and I would like anyone who isnt a bombers fan to point out if there is. Not real standouts anyway.

Whats Knighter going to say if the injury list stays reasonable and the bombers still do nothing this year which is likely given their list.

At least at Carlton they know its going to take time.

 

[Big Blow Hard]

.
There's not much going on in terms of young blokes at the bombers and I would like anyone who isnt a bombers fan to point out if there is. Not real standouts anyway.

.

It's all about having cofidence in our draftees. We have it. We have addressed alot of areas in the past few drafts and fully expect to start seeing the results. As may ant club with its draftees. Just because the names are not recognizable to opposition supporters, does not mean much. Just look at Brisbanes latest offerings last year, that came on all of a sudden and impressed. Or Collingwoods "no - name" youngsters who came along in leaps and bounds last year also. We have confidence because we have watched them mature, noticing their fitness, weight, times improve constantly. Watchng what they do at Bendigo etc. Just as I am sure you do with your Richmond kids, who I can't rate because I don't know them well enough.

Self Belief and Unity bring results. .