Hawthorn's Premeirship tally - A result of zoning and nothing else

[Frankston Rover]

I believe they were growth areas, not boom areas. They were doubling/tripling their populations.

Karingal Football Club was founded in 1969. If a young family moved to Frankston in 1970 by the time their child was old enough (say 17) to play AFL they would be able to play in 1987 - after zoning was abolished.

Morwell + Traralgon + Moe, 1966 = 49000 1981 = 59000

They weren't growth areas, when the boundaries were drawn up in the mid to early sixties, all clubs were basically drawing upon an equivalent population base, by the time it had finished Hawthorn had double the population base and more importantly a population base in the right demographic for recruiting footballers.

As TWITA showed, country leagues such as Geelong, Ovens and Murray, Ballarat had very good sides. Maybe it was the culture of your club and the players you employed that are to blame...

I don't know, it wasn't due to massive country population growth that's for sure, did their metro zone include the northern growth areas? Keilor etc?

So now your saying Essendon's 84/85 flags were the result of Metro Zones... Geez, either other clubs were extremely lucky and St. Kilda, Footscray, Melbourne unlucky or these clubs just didn't recruit the right player.

were they competing in the metro championship?

I'm an amateur demographer, not an expert on the politics of the VCFL's . Which leagues pay the best? Do the local VFA teams suck out the best players?

Up until 1986 Mornington Peninsula League and Nepean League were seperate entities. They merged in 1986 to form the MPNFL.

I am of the understanding that due to the fact these leagues were considered too small to enter the VCFL championships they were unable to compete - hence the merger but I can't find anything on the net.

 

[thatswhatimtalkinabout]

I am of the understanding that due to the fact these leagues were considered too small to enter the VCFL championships they were unable to compete - hence the merger but I can't find anything on the net.

http://www.mpnfl.com.au/

Pretty good link which confirms your position - MPFL combined with the SWGFL, YVFL & NFL leagues at various times prior to 1980 to compete before being known as the MPNFL at state level.

The more you look at it, you realise what a fantastic job they did to get so much out of such a small league.

 

[Frankston Rover]

http://www.mpnfl.com.au/

Pretty good link which confirms your position - MPFL combined with the SWGFL, YVFL & NFL leagues at various times prior to 1980 to compete before being known as the MPNFL at state level.

The more you look at it, you realise what a fantastic job they did to get so much out of such a small league.

Yeah, the MPL and Nepean merger took place in '86.

SWGL is now the Cardinia Division of the MPNFL which didn't happen until around late 90's/early 2000's iirc. I know Pakenham, Berwick, Narre joined first with Tooradin only coming on board recently.

When you look at our 'leagues' compared with organisations like Ovens and Murray, Bendigo, Ballarat, Geelong etc, we may have had the 'potential' but there is no doubt those other leagues provided much better structure, competition and were very well established even in the 60's and 70's.

I wonder how many clubs requested the mish mash tin pot leagues of the Peninsula when the zones were handed out?

 

[Falchoon]

Karingal Football Club was founded in 1969. If a young family moved to Frankston in 1970 by the time their child was old enough (say 17) to play AFL they would be able to play in 1987 - after zoning was abolished.

That would be a couple.

If a family moved they'd be older. I'm tipping Karingal Football Club were founded in 1969 because they had demand at u7's, u12's etc, not because the kids were being born.

 

[Mcchawk]

This thread reeks of a bitter StKilda support and an obsessed Essenscum fan sitting on his shoulder goading (was he also a Saints pick ) him on

In all rubbish of the highest order.

 

[Frankston Rover]

That would be a couple.

If a family moved they'd be older. I'm tipping Karingal Football Club were founded in 1969 because they had demand at u7's, u12's etc, not because the kids were being born.

Geez getting picky now aren't we? I was born in 1977. My parents bought in Karingal 7 years before I was born. I'm the perfect example of why your 'theory' is so flawed. If our zone was so good, Hawthorn should have had a team of guns well into the 90's and early 00's - given I turned 18 in 1995.

That said we:

Still haven't seen the multitute of MPNFL premiership players we had at Hawthorn.

Still haven't seen a reason why the MPNFL isn't the second highest level of football in Australia.

Still haven't seen a reason why, despite having access to one of the VCFL's best competitions, St. Kilda couldn't crack it for another flag.

Any time you want to address these questions, I'll be here.

 

[Frankston Rover]

That would be a couple.

If a family moved they'd be older. I'm tipping Karingal Football Club were founded in 1969 because they had demand at u7's, u12's etc, not because the kids were being born.

Actually, do you know the best player (in terms of AFL games played) Karingal have produced is?

While you're at it, do the same for the Pines and Seaford.

I think you'll find they all played for St.Kilda.

 

[Hodgepodge]

Some had far better access than others making only 3 teams competitive i.e. Hawthorn, Richmond and carlton.
All those flags are tainted.

North won two premierships in that time and played off in 4(?) Grand Finals. Their best era yet.

Uncompetitive?

Please provide some information as to the 'far better access' that sides like Carlton and Hawthorn had.

Thanks.

 

[Gene Simmons]

Leigh Matthews played for Chelsea Football Club, Chelsea Football Club played in the MPNFL, the MPNFL was one of Hawthorns zones.

http://www.chelseafc.com.au/Publication History 1968.pdf

So what is St Kilda's excuse..how many draft pick concessions have you got in your team over the past decade and they still can't win a premiership....

 

[Falchoon]

Actually, do you know the best player (in terms of AFL games played) Karingal have produced is?

While you're at it, do the same for the Pines and Seaford.

I think you'll find they all played for St.Kilda.

No doubt, and if country zoning wasn't abolished they'd all be yours, didn't I address that in post #38

 

[Falchoon]

Geez getting picky now aren't we?

I thought we had been for a while

I was born in 1977. My parents bought in Karingal 7 years before I was born. I'm the perfect example of why your 'theory' is so flawed.

I was born in 1971, my parents bought their house in 1981. I'm sure that limited sample size points to something.

just for you, Frankstons population
1954 - 15,478
1961 - 26,722
1966 - 42,042
1971 - 59,410
1976 - 71,899
1981 - 78,808

now you can use the same argument about those who moved to Frankston in 1954, just to be consistent.

If our zone was so good, Hawthorn should have had a team of guns well into the 90's and early 00's - given I turned 18 in 1995.

the system was wound up in 1985-1986, not sure how you make the proverbial leap to that conclusion.

Still haven't seen the multitute of MPNFL premiership players we had at Hawthorn.

a quick scan of draft days reveals from MPNFL/SWGFL

cream

Pick 1 Jeff White
pick 1 Travis Johnstone
pick 3 Trent Croad
pick 7 Kris Massie
pick 12 Adam Ramanauskas
Pick 7 Laurence Angwin
Pick 6 Steven Salopek
Pick 5 Jarrad Grant
Pick 11 Andrejs Everitt
Pick 12 Nathan Jones
Pick 1 Tom Scully

Late gems
Brendan Fevola
Aussie Jones
Justin Leppitsch
Matthew Boyd
Chris Newman
Aaron Edwards
Chad Morrison

GOP's
Lonie Bros.
Toby Thurstans
Paul Johnson
Adam McPhee
Tuck Bros.

Jeez, the old production line keeps on rolling, sorry, Hawthorn has continued to develop its zone well, that's not even including Gippsland or the old metro area, nor any interstate recruits attracted to success.

Still haven't seen a reason why the MPNFL isn't the second highest level of football in Australia.

How many other "country" leagues had 3-4 VFA teams on their doorstep?

Still haven't seen a reason why, despite having access to one of the VCFL's best competitions, St. Kilda couldn't crack it for another flag.

ye olde bigfootie deflectione, clap clap

I dunno,
maybe a lack of the right demographic,
maybe Leigh Matthews could have swapped sides in 1971.
Maybe country zoning could have been demolished a couple of years earlier and we could add to Harvey/Loewe/Burke
Maybe we could have had the Peninsula/Dandenong and won half a dozen.

Any time you want to address these questions, I'll be here.

You here? any more fluff you want to throw?

 

[PoidaCat]

It's Official.

Tasmania's (Ex Hawthorn) Premership Tally has been reset to 0.

Cheers to all those who have helped clear this up.

 

[Falchoon]

It's Official.

Tasmania's (Ex Hawthorn) Premership Tally has been reset to 0.

Cheers to all those who have helped clear this up.

I'd give them 2.

 

[Rioli magic]

 

[Pessimistic]

It's Official.

Tasmania's (Ex Hawthorn) Premership Tally has been reset to 0.

Cheers to all those who have helped clear this up.

not like geelong, who set own count from 89-95 back to zero

 

[dymmot]

North won two premierships in that time and played off in 4(?) Grand Finals. Their best era yet.

Uncompetitive?

Please provide some information as to the 'far better access' that sides like Carlton and Hawthorn had.

Thanks.

Go back and re-read the thread you moronic flog. I think all the information is there for you.
Especially about lists.
North's best period was definately the 90s and 2000. 3 Grand Finals, missed out on a 4th due to us winning a game we didn't deserve to win after the siren in 1994. Stuffed up in 2000 after finishing in the top 4 and not to mention their other consistent performances during this time.

not like geelong, who set own count from 89-95 back to zero

At least the Tasmania comment has some merit/relevance. This doesn't!

 

[Rioli magic]

This thread makes no sense. Either we scrap all flags until zoning was abolished - in which case Hawthorn are currently leading the flag count with 4 or you stop whinging because your team is located in a dirty old hole.

 

[Frankston Rover]

No doubt, and if country zoning wasn't abolished they'd all be yours, didn't I address that in post #38

Really?

Harvey was recruited from St Kilda's then VCFL zone, from Seaford and played his first senior game for St Kilda on 6 August 1988 against Footscray at the Western Oval in Round 19 of the 1988 VFL season.

Link

Burke was recruited from the Pines.
Loewe was recruited from Mount Eliza.

I think you'll find the zones shifted during the 80's with St.Kilda getting the top part of the MPNFL thanks to their connection with Moorabbin.

Frankstons population
1954 - 15,478
1961 - 26,722
1966 - 42,042
1971 - 59,410
1976 - 71,899
1981 - 78,808

now you can use the same argument about those who moved to Frankston in 1954, just to be consistent.

Relevence? Please, just give me the names of the players from the MPNFL that won flags with Hawthorn.

You'll be lucky to get 6 or 7 over the 30 years.

the system was wound up in 1985-1986, not sure how you make the proverbial leap to that conclusion.

Because if a kid/family moved to Frankston in the Great Population Stampede of the 70's like you say, then these kids would all be around 18 in the years 1977-1986. Given a career lasts 10-12 years, a player taken at 18 in 1983 would still be playing in 1995. If he was picked up in 1985, he could still be playing in 1997.

Can you tell me how many flags we won between 1992 and 1998 with all these Mornington Peninsula 'super footballers'?

a quick scan of draft days reveals from MPNFL/SWGFL

cream

Pick 1 Jeff White
pick 1 Travis Johnstone
pick 3 Trent Croad
pick 7 Kris Massie
pick 12 Adam Ramanauskas
Pick 7 Laurence Angwin
Pick 6 Steven Salopek
Pick 5 Jarrad Grant
Pick 11 Andrejs Everitt
Pick 12 Nathan Jones
Pick 1 Tom Scully

Late gems
Brendan Fevola
Aussie Jones
Justin Leppitsch
Matthew Boyd
Chris Newman
Aaron Edwards
Chad Morrison

GOP's
Lonie Bros.
Toby Thurstans
Paul Johnson
Adam McPhee
Tuck Bros.

Laurence Angwin is cream? Half those guys aren't playing anymore.

Compare that list to the Geelong Falcons:

Current AFL Listed Players
Jonathan Brown - Brisbane Lions - 184 games
Gary Ablett, Jr. - Geelong Cats - 168 games
Jimmy Bartel - Geelong Cats - 151 games
Mark Blake - Geelong Cats - 58 games
Ben Bucovaz - Fremantle Football Club - 0 games
Patrick Dangerfield - Adelaide Crows - 21 games
Adam Donohue - Geelong Cats - 0 games
Simon Hogan - Geelong Cats - 0 games
Cameron Ling - Geelong Cats - 182 games
Matthew Scarlett - Geelong Cats - 206 games
Leigh Harding - North Melbourne Kangaroos - 111 games
Travis Boak - Port Adelaide Power - 31 games
Nathan Foley - Richmond Tigers - 70 games
Will Schofield - West Coast Eagles - 12 games
Jordan Jones - West Coast Eagles - 0 games
Lachlan Henderson - Brisbane Lions - 8 games
Steven Baker - St Kilda Saints - 154 games
Matt Maguire - St Kilda Saints - 99 games
Jack Steven - St Kilda Saints - 1 game
Tom Simpkin - St Kilda Saints - 0 games
Tim Callan - Western Bulldogs - 30 games
Shaun Higgins - Western Bulldogs - 52 games
Guy O'Keefe - Western Bulldogs - 0 games
Ayce Cordy - Western Bulldogs - 0 games
Clint Bartram - Melbourne Demons - 44 games
John Meesen - Melbourne Demons - 2 games
Jordie McKenzie - Melbourne Demons - 0 games
Brent Moloney - Melbourne Demons - 69 games
Tim Boyle - Hawthorn Hawks - 31 games
Luke Hodge - Hawthorn Hawks - 132 games
Jordan Lewis - Hawthorn Hawks - 83 games
Jaxson Barham - Collingwood Magpies - 0 games
Nick Maxwell - Collingwood Magpies - 95 games
Danny Stanley - Collingwood Magpies - 4 games
Luke Rounds - Collingwood Magpies - 0 games
Amon Buchanan - Sydney Swans - 108 games
Daniel O'Keefe - Sydney

Pretty handy list of players there.

And I don't seem to recall Warrnambool, Port Fairy or Anglesea having their population double over the last 20 years?

Maybe is just a silly little coincidence...

Jeez, the old production line keeps on rolling, sorry, Hawthorn has continued to develop its zone well, that's not even including Gippsland or the old metro area, nor any interstate recruits attracted to success.

Have a look at this:
MPNFL Team of the Century (VFL/AFL)

Geez, you'd think it would be full of Hawthorn guns, yet we only have 4 players that we drafted. 4 out of 22. Only four? Geez, that can't be right?

How many other "country" leagues had 3-4 VFA teams on their doorstep?

Really, which ones?

I dunno,
maybe a lack of the right demographic,
maybe Leigh Matthews could have swapped sides in 1971.
Maybe country zoning could have been demolished a couple of years earlier and we could add to Harvey/Loewe/Burke
Maybe we could have had the Peninsula/Dandenong and won half a dozen.

Culture. Plain and simple.

 

[Gene Simmons]

It's Official.

Tasmania's (Ex Hawthorn) Premership Tally has been reset to 0.

Cheers to all those who have helped clear this up.

Pfft...Geelong can't even win back to back premierships... 2 premierships in 50 years isn't that great... compared to 10 premierships

 

[dymmot]

Pfft...Geelong can't even win back to back premierships... 2 premierships in 50 years isn't that great... compared to 10 premierships

Coming froma a Dawks Flog this is about the funniest thing (winning Back to Back Premierships) I've read since CP07 bandwagoner thread. We are just as successful as it as you are . 9 illigitimate premierships.

 

[mess]

Coming froma a Dawks Flog this is about the funniest thing I've read since CP07 bandwagoner thread. We are just as successful as it as you are . 9 illigitimate premierships.

You have my pity....

 

[Gene Simmons]

Coming froma a Dawks Flog this is about the funniest thing (winning Back to Back Premierships) I've read since CP07 bandwagoner thread. We are just as successful as it as you are . 9 illigitimate premierships.

Compared to 5 illigitimate Runners Up Geelong earned over the past 20 years

 

[dymmot]

Compared to 5 illigitimate Runners Up Geelong earned over the past 20 years

At least you're willing to admit 2008 was a bradbury .

 

[Mcchawk]

At least you're willing to admit 2008 was a bradbury .

Only if you admit 2007 and 2009 were. We would've killed you in both

 

[Booo!]

Dad, why can't we have a premiership too?
Well, you see son, it's a question of demographics, urban planning, and a great man called Lethal Leigh- who didn't want to play with us. Let me get out my graphs and I'll tell you all about it....