Which has more influence in a game......

[invinciBlues]

I don't underrate the importance of a DECENT ruckman - I just don't think that the difference between a good solid ruckman like Jolly and a superstar ruckman like Sandilands is really all that big a deal.

[from wiki] "Jolly holds the record of most hitouts in a game by a current AFL player, amassing 53 against Collingwood on June 20, 2009. He beat his previous record of 49 and overall is ranked second since statistics have been kept (1987), one hitout behind Matthew Burton."

I'd honestly be surprised if most punters had didn't have Jolly in their top for the season. How does Jolly not qualify as an elite ruckman?

I also can't believe I'm singing the praises of a collingwood player, to a collingwood supporter who wont have a bar of it

 

[Higs]

Stupid poll. Goals win games of footy not hitouts which may or may not result in goals. 34 is below par for Sandilands anyway and 7 goals is way above par for Franklin.

 

[Dan]

Stupid poll. Goals win games of footy not hitouts which may or may not result in goals. 34 is below par for Sandilands anyway and 7 goals is way above par for Franklin.

Fair enough........what about Sandilands form last season V Franklin's?

 

[Vinnie Vegas]

[from wiki] "Jolly holds the record of most hitouts in a game by a current AFL player, amassing 53 against Collingwood on June 20, 2009.

And in that game, we beat Sydney comfortably...

What does that tell you about the value of hitouts?

 

[liam_13]

The AFL really need to ditch overall hitout stats and just record "HO's to advantage" and "HO's to disadvantage".

Sandilands would have the best ratio but most would be around the 1:1 mark.


To answer the question, Franklin.

Great post

I understand keeping total hitouts, but the ratio should be the more important stat in my eyes (however, does anyone know where you could find the ratio stats of advantage:disadvantage hitouts? Would like to know so can see if the higher ranked players are actually the best ruckman Sandilands, Cox, Hille, Mumford etc)

 

[HolyWars]

I think a fairer comparison if you are taking Goals vs Hitouts is a number of goals that Franklin often kicks.

Franklin kicking 5 goals vs Sandilands 34 hitouts.

Franklin: 32 times he has kicked 5 goals or more in a game.
Sandilands: 39 times he has had 34 hitouts or more in a game.

It would be better to have H.O to advantage though.

 

[Dan]

I think a fairer comparison if you are taking Goals vs Hitouts is a number of goals that Franklin often kicks.

Franklin kicking 5 goals vs Sandilands 34 hitouts.

Franklin: 32 times he has kicked 5 goals or more in a game.
Sandilands: 39 times he has had 34 hitouts or more in a game.

It would be better to have H.O to advantage though.

Thats the sorta comparison I should of started with in this thread. A 7 goal game from a forward is gonna get you the 4 points every time you'd think.

 

[invinciBlues]

And in that game, we beat Sydney comfortably...

What does that tell you about the value of hitouts?

You're adding two and two, and coming up with five. Look at the midfield surround the ruck... No doubt you've watched games from 2010 again, look at the influence of Jolly and how highly people are only now rating your midfield!

I'm not continuing this discussion with you. Its pointless, you seem to think one position is negligible because you haven't seen the impact of a dominate ruck for over a decade, and then when you finally have one you couldn't tell him apart from a pile of spuds!

 

[SA1NTER]

Buddy would have more of an influence. You don't know if those 34 hitouts are to a Dockers advantage or an opponents advantage.

 

[Partridge]

Exactly. Score on the board means everything in finals

It's fairly important in home and away games too actually.

Can't believe this is even a question. How can a guy taller than everyone else not win every hitout? Franklin by so far it's not funny.

 

[Vinnie Vegas]

You're adding two and two, and coming up with five. Look at the midfield surround the ruck... No doubt you've watched games from 2010 again, look at the influence of Jolly and how highly people are only now rating your midfield!

I'm not continuing this discussion with you. Its pointless, you seem to think one position is negligible because you haven't seen the impact of a dominate ruck for over a decade, and then when you finally have one you couldn't tell him apart from a pile of spuds!

I don't think one position is negligible - You're creating a straw man.

I think that the difference between a competent, skilled ruckman and an absolute "superstar" ruckman is virtually nothing.

I absolutely think Darren Jolly was a big factor in our success this year, but my point is that a Darren Jolly type is all you need - You don't need a Sandilands or a Cox.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

I don't think one position is negligible - You're creating a straw man.

I think that the difference between a competent, skilled ruckman and an absolute "superstar" ruckman is virtually nothing.

I absolutely think Darren Jolly was a big factor in our success this year, but my point is that a Darren Jolly type is all you need - You don't need a Sandilands or a Cox.

And truth be told, we won one with Campbell who was just a run of the mill average ruck and Renouf, in his 6th game, which proves the point.

 

[Bad Brain]

As mentioned by a few others, Sandi averaged 34.9 hitouts in 2010 while Franklin averaged 4.5 goals in his best year and 3.1 over his career.

So ignoring how lopsided those stats are, I'd say a dominant ruckman decides who wins the game, while the star forward decides by how much.

 

[Bad Brain]

I don't think one position is negligible - You're creating a straw man.

I think that the difference between a competent, skilled ruckman and an absolute "superstar" ruckman is virtually nothing.

I absolutely think Darren Jolly was a big factor in our success this year, but my point is that a Darren Jolly type is all you need - You don't need a Sandilands or a Cox.

For every team that has won a GF with skilled rather than "superstar" ruckman, there are two or three others who won one with a deadset potatoe of a CHF / FF.

 

[bzparkes]

For every team that has won a GF with skilled rather than "superstar" ruckman, there are two or three others who won one with a deadset potatoe of a CHF / FF.

Exactly, we won with with Hansen and Lynch as our KPFs.

 

[Vinnie Vegas]

Exactly, we won with with Hansen and Lynch as our KPFs.

And Hawthorn won with Campbell and Renouf as their ruckmen.

Brisbane won three with Keating/McDonald/Charman.

Essendon almost went undefeated in 2000 with an aging John Barnes as their primary ruckman.

All this shows is that no team is ever perfect, with superstars everywhere on the park - I can think of far more examples of a team's ruckman having a field day and still losing than I can of occasions when a KP has fired and his team still lost.

 

[Dangas]

I hate to break the news to you but the main purpose of aussie rules footy is you score/you win, although hitouts/disp are great for first possie, it doesn't get you the goods unless those hitouts resulted in goals directly,