Which has more influence in a game......

[Dan]

Aaron Sandilands with 16 disposals and 34 hit outs

Or

Lance Franklin with 16 disposals and 7 goals

 

[Vinnie Vegas]

7 goals >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 34 hitouts.

7 of Franklin's disposals are goals, but there's every chance that the other 9 are better than Sandilands' 16 as well.

 

[the distributer]

id go for buddy in that scenario, but remember sandles is more than capable of providing goals or goal assists himself, sandles is also more consistant.

 

[Dan]

7 goals >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 34 hitouts.

7 of Franklin's disposals are goals, but there's every chance that the other 9 are better than Sandilands' 16 as well.

Those 34 hitouts are from the most damaging Ruckman in the competition though..........still a 7 goal game from Franklin is damaging too

 

[Sir Eddie Menuek]

Franklin, no doubt about it.

Goalkickers win finals not hitouts.

 

[invinciBlues]

7 goals >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 34 hitouts.

7 of Franklin's disposals are goals, but there's every chance that the other 9 are better than Sandilands' 16 as well.

Franklin, no doubt about it.

Goalkickers win finals not hitouts.

Which entire forward line is better supplied with more opportunities from having a monster dominate the ruck? Because its not like "goals from stoppages" is a telling factor

 

[Swans120]

Buddy's.

Sandilands wins those stats every other week but every time he does, the Dockers don't win the game. Every time Buddy has kicked 7 goals or more, the Hawks have won the game (6 from 6). In fact, when Buddy has kicked 6 goals or more the Hawks have won 14 times out of 16.

Of course you can make the argument that Sandilands wins his stats more often and is therefore more reliable, but as the question is which has more influence, you'd have to say 7 goals from Buddy.

 

[Simmonds2Hislop]

The AFL really need to ditch overall hitout stats and just record "HO's to advantage" and "HO's to disadvantage".

Sandilands would have the best ratio but most would be around the 1:1 mark.


To answer the question, Franklin.

 

[Dan]

2010 season.....

In 16 H&W games last season Sandilands had 30+ hitouts........out of those 16 games 11 of em were wins for Freo.

In 64 goal season for Franklin their were 7 games when Franklin kicked 5+ goals......out of the 7, 4 were wins for the Hawks.


However, Sandilands best season so far being 2010 isn't as good as Franklin's 2008.

 

[Frothies Mcveigh]

In that scenario I'd prefer Franklin.

 

[Asgardian]

The hitouts may result in goals, but there is nothing maybe about goals on the board

 

[Sir Eddie Menuek]

The hitouts may result in goals, but there is nothing maybe about goals on the board

Exactly. Score on the board means everything in finals

 

[Dan]

Exactly. Score on the board means everything in finals

When it comes to finals, they do tend to be low scoring games....so I would take Franklin's game over Sandilands. But ya gotta remember Sandilands hitouts are not just your standard ruckmen getting first tape....he brings his midfielders into the game and creates goals from stopages

 

[Vinnie Vegas]

Those 34 hitouts are from the most damaging Ruckman in the competition though..........still a 7 goal game from Franklin is damaging too

Aaron Sandilands only averaged about 27% of his hitouts to advantage in 2010, which means that of the 34, only 9 would be to advantage.

The team would then have to convert 7/9 of those hitouts to advantage into goals for that stat to match Franklin's 7 goals.

 

[Dan]

^^^ 7 goals.....yeah.

But who would you take out of last season?

 

[Sin City]

Franklin

 

[Vinnie Vegas]

^^^ 7 goals.....yeah.

But who would you take out of last season?

Franklin.

Every day of the week and twice on match day.

Ruckmen are overrated - You need a competent one, but beyond that, they're just not as valuable as star midfielders or KPs.

 

[Dan]

Thanks Newbie

Franklin way ahead with a 7 goal game....I should of put it 4-5 goals V Sandilands.

 

[willoblue]

most probably Franklin of course, unless the team is kicking over 20 goals & winning by 10 goals, & Sandi is getting his usual hard ball gets, shepherding his little men, creating space for his team & being BOG in a 12 point win.
i'm sure we would all agree
stats are just stats after all, but in all likelihood I would take Buddy at the original criteria, but i hope i have shown that it is not black & white.

 

[invinciBlues]

Franklin.

Every day of the week and twice on match day.

Ruckmen are overrated - You need a competent one, but beyond that, they're just not as valuable as star midfielders or KPs.

You would neither have been in a position to challenge for the flag, nor to win it without Jolly.

Do you honestly think you'd be where you are today with Fraser as the number 1 ruck still?

A star ruckman is both a star midfielder and star KPP.

 

[Vinnie Vegas]

You would neither have been in a position to challenge for the flag, nor to win it without Jolly.

Do you honestly think you'd be where you are today with Fraser as the number 1 ruck still?

A star ruckman is both a star midfielder and star KPP.

I said that you have to have a competent one, which Josh Fraser isn't.

Jolly is a good solid ruckman, but he's no star of the competition. He's never been AA, never won a B&F and never polled more than 3 Brownlow votes in a season.

That is the only level of ruckman that is required.

A guy like Dean Cox, Aaron Sandilands or whoever else is nice, but not really required to be a great side - Look at all the great sides who had just "above average" ruckman, rather than stars.

Look at our game against Freo in Rd 8 - Aaron Sandilands had 25 disposals, 43 hitouts and 2 goals, basically rucking the whole game by himself. Darren Jolly and Cameron Wood combined for 20 disposals, 30 hitouts and 2 goals, which was basically enough to neutralise the production of Sandilands.

We won the game by 6 goals, and were up by as much as 55 points by 22 minutes into the last quarter before Freo pegged it back. In that game, Travis Cloke's 17 possession, 5 goal effort was much, much more damaging than what Sandilands did.

 

[Slattery_20]

Franklin.

Every day of the week and twice on match day.

Ruckmen are overrated - You need a competent one, but beyond that, they're just not as valuable as star midfielders or KPs.

Could make just as reasonable an argument about tall forwards.
You won with Dawes/Cloke... guessing they kicked ~60 between them the year.
Cats with Mooney/Hawkins ~ 80 for the year.
Hawks 2, kicked 180 or whatever
Cats with Nab/Mooney ~85 for the year

 

[invinciBlues]

I said that you have to have a competent one, which Josh Fraser isn't.

Agreed.

Jolly is a good solid ruckman, but he's no star of the competition.

Disagree. Watching him play for you, he was a massive inclusion. He and Ball were the "missing pieces". If you wont give him a "star" rating, you'd at the very least say he's an elite ruckman.

He's never been AA, never won a B&F and never polled more than 3 Brownlow votes in a season.

The "never been AA" has me a bit miffed. But I think most will agree the AA selection is a contentious one every year. As for the Brownlow... the last time a ruckman won it, Jimmy Stynes held the medal.

I think a decade of Josh Fraser has led you to somewhat underrate the importance of a quality ruckman. First use of the pill for your mids is not something to be written off. Especially when you've got guys like Ball, Pendlebury, and co who can capitalised and really damage the opposition.

 

[Vinnie Vegas]

As for the Brownlow... the last time a ruckman won it, Jimmy Stynes held the medal.

Goodes won it playing full time in the ruck as well, but the point is that he's never polled more than 3 VOTES in a season, which many ruckmen have done.

I think a decade of Josh Fraser has led you to somewhat underrate the importance of a quality ruckman. First use of the pill for your mids is not something to be written off. Especially when you've got guys like Ball, Pendlebury, and co who can capitalised and really damage the opposition.

I don't underrate the importance of a DECENT ruckman - I just don't think that the difference between a good solid ruckman like Jolly and a superstar ruckman like Sandilands is really all that big a deal.

 

[StillWaiting5689]

Jolly is a good solid ruckman, but he's no star of the competition. He's never been AA, never won a B&F and never polled more than 3 Brownlow votes in a season.

Underrating Jolly a bit. Has consistently been in the top few rucks for a few years now. Whilst not an elite player of the AFL he is clearly one of the star ruckmen. He started the season slow but his second half the year was as good if not better then the other rucks with maybe one or two exclusions. Plus he was epic in the GF which was a welcome change to what happened in the ruck in our previous GF attempts.