Life After Zionist Summer Camp

[Toriola]

This article by Allison Benedikt has generated some heated debate in recent weeks and I think reflects a disturbing (from an Israeli POV) trend. Young American Jews, a generally liberal bunch, are finding it increasingly difficult to support Israel c. 2011 due to the intense moral clash this creates with their internal belief system. Fewer and fewer young American jews today are Zionists, and fewer and fewer American Zionists today are liberal. The liberal diaspora deserting the country would be a nightmare for Israel and would eventually lead to an othodox-dominated diaspora being their main public supporters... this is kind of already happening I think. Unfortunately I see no sign of this reversing in the future.

http://www.theawl.com/2011/06/life-after-zionist-summer-camp#more

 

[Hawkamania!]

Some of the most vocal anti-zionist Jews are Orthodox.

http://www.nkusa.org/

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/

 

[RisingPhoenix]

Fewer and fewer young American jews today are Zionists,

[YOUTUBE]k1WPX9o_oHA[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

A very interesting article. As an outsider I've always found the 'God promised this land to US and to nobody else. To hell with you all'aspect of Zionism very hard to take. I think that any state that is set up along a single ethnic nationalist is fundamentally wrong - but then again, I am outside the Jewish religious/ethnic psyche.

I understand that Jewish history is full of pogroms against them, social exclusion and the horror of what the Nazis did to them. I can understand the need for a safe haven for Jews from these sorts of persecutions. But the thing is, with the setting up of this safe haven, the people already living there were displaced. They had no say. They had no voice.

This is what makes Israel less appealing to the Jewish kids growing up now. This negative view of Israel, which is in no way helped by their political and military actions, will only continue to grow.

How hard can it be for people to live among each other peacefully? This is what should be taught from birth. Kids in the playground are taught not to fight, tease or steal from each other. They are taught manners. How bloody hard can it be not to carry this forward into adult life?

 

[Toriola]

Some of the most vocal anti-zionist Jews are Orthodox.

Naturie Karta are a batshit crazy wild fringe who oppose zionism due to messianic reasons. They represent about 0.001% of the othodox community.

re. Portman, she was born in Jerusalem and it's hardly unusual for people to be fond of their country of birth, in fact it's highly unusual if they're not.

 

[Toriola]

How hard can it be for people to live among each other peacefully?

Arabs and Jews it's virtually impossible. Culturally it's like oil and water, which is why the one-state solution (I think this is looking increasingly likely) will be an unmitigated disaster.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

^^It's a crying shame, is what it is. With the rise and rise of the extremists on both sides shouting in the loudest voice, the moderates in the middle have much less chance of being heard.

You can be proud of who you are and where you come from and what you've achieved. But when that pride stats butting heads with all around you it's time to pull that head in. Goes for Hamas. Goes for Yisrael Beiteinu.

 

[Toriola]

Yisrael Beiteinu may be racists but they have by far the hottest member of the knesset.

 

[Admiral Byng]

^^It's a crying shame, is what it is. With the rise and rise of the extremists on both sides shouting in the loudest voice, the moderates in the middle have much less chance of being heard.

The moderates tend to migrate to somewhere else they can live a quiet life. Leaving the extremists behind.

 

[rayven]

Arabs and Jews it's virtually impossible. Culturally it's like oil and water,

Actualy thats wrong....they got on ok for alot longer before the war than they have not got on afterwards...

Lots of Russian jews went there before the war to excape persecution.
The germans went there in the 30's to stir up the arabs and there shieks for future military action in that area after control of the oil and s**t......now the Americans have been doing the stirring for 60 years....for control of the oil and s**t

take away that influence and you'll find some beautiful communities of all religons.

 

[blackcat]

Arabs and Jews it's virtually impossible. Culturally it's like oil and water, which is why the one-state solution (I think this is looking increasingly likely) will be an unmitigated disaster.

errrr

wrong

milennia proves you wrong.

Convivencia in Andalucia.

mizrahrim sephardim.

When the Herzl Ashkenazim displaced the natives, the conflict started.

The Judeo Christian culture is the biggest load of hogwash as talking point. Who put the Jews to the sword in Europe, ok, some Greek Orthodox, but the christians commited the pogroms. Not the arabs and muslims.

Hebron was far later. And there would have been minor conflicts in the ME and Ottoman empire.

But it was the christians who put the jews to the sword, not the arabs. Not the Jewish-Christian hegemony in the ME under puppet gov't to DC, are putting arabs to the sword. Has not yet come full circle, but it is time the Christians got their commuppance.

50 years, before David Hume, Jews were not aloud entry or residency in Britain.

OK, 100 years after his death, Britain did have a Jewish PM, Benjamin Disraeli http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Disraeli

 

[blackcat]

Yisrael Beiteinu may be racists but they have by far the hottest member of the knesset.

she from Moldova too?

Did the D Generation not do a Lonely Planet Travel Guide on Moldova?

How many non-Jewish Russians are part of the Israel is Our Home party. Risible

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

She IS cute though

 

[blackcat]

Sarah Silverman for mine. funny and sexy

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

That's true too

 

[Toriola]

errrr

wrong

milennia proves you wrong.

Convivencia in Andalucia.

mizrahrim sephardim.

When the Herzl Ashkenazim displaced the natives, the conflict started.

The Judeo Christian culture is the biggest load of hogwash as talking point. Who put the Jews to the sword in Europe, ok, some Greek Orthodox, but the christians commited the pogroms. Not the arabs and muslims.

Hebron was far later. And there would have been minor conflicts in the ME and Ottoman empire.

But it was the christians who put the jews to the sword, not the arabs. Not the Jewish-Christian hegemony in the ME under puppet gov't to DC, are putting arabs to the sword. Has not yet come full circle, but it is time the Christians got their commuppance.

50 years, before David Hume, Jews were not aloud entry or residency in Britain.

OK, 100 years after his death, Britain did have a Jewish PM, Benjamin Disraeli http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Disraeli

Culture =/= Religion. Judaism is a religion which has been practiced and accepted for centuries in the ME and North Africa... Jews are a tribe whos ancestors descended from biblical Eretz Yisrael, well that's the narrative at least. Israel is a largely secular (for now at least) country, don't think the annual gay pride parade in Tel Aviv would be a hit in a binational state.

The Jewish-Christian alliance is hilarious, at least the Phalange and Israelis were fighting a common enemy... Christian Zionists are using Israel and Jews for armageddon. John Hagee's name is plastered all over the Ariel settlement. When you're as friendless and isolated as Israel you'll take anyone.

On the heels of Glenn Beck’s visit to the Knesset last week and ahead of his keynote speech this week at the 2011 Christians United for Israel (CUFI) Washington summit, +972 magazine commissioned a poll on Israeli attitudes towards the Rapture and the role of Jews in the event of Jesus’ return.

The poll, conducted by Dr. Tina Kemach, shows that a majority of Israeli Jews, 74.3%, have no intention whatsoever of accepting Jesus as the Messiah, despite the fact that after the Rapture, those who do not convert to Christianity will be incinerated.

20% of the people asked were too angry/shocked/confused to answer, and the remaining 5.7% said they would consider conversion if they could get Jesus’ autograph.

Out of the 74.3% who opposed conversion, Dr. Kemach asked how they intend on avoiding their certain death in the dungeons of hell. 90% said they would look for the cheapest deal to Anatalya, Turkey, despite strained relations. If indeed the end of times is near, as Pastor John Hagee claims, this could be great news for the Turkish tourism industry. Unfortunately, those Jews heads would be chopped off upon their return to Ben Gurion airport.

Another question that was asked was, “what do you believe is the reason for the Christian’s right bear hug of Israel?”. 90% chose option a) Because they know we’re right and the rest of the world can go … themselves; 9% chose option b) because they think it’ll get them a cheaper deal for their next baptizing tour on the Jordan River; and only 1% chose the correct answer c) because they believe that for the Rapture to occur, Israel must rule the biblical land and Jews must be protected, right until the battle of Armageddon. After that they’re cooked meat.

Israeli politicians had mixed reactions to the poll. Michael Ben Ari, who during the meet at the Knesset offered Glenn Beck his seat in parliament , felt duped and said: “That bastard! He was looking at me and smiling! And all the while he knew I was going to die in Armageddon?!?! Get him back here right now, I’ll show what happens to people who mess with a Kahanist!”

http://972mag.com/poll-majority-of-israeli-jews-will-refuse-to-accept-jesus-as-messiah/

 

[Toriola]

How many non-Jewish Russians are part of the Israel is Our Home party. Risible

Dunno, there's Michaeli but she converted. I thought ethnic nationalism was a bad thing though.

Anyway, take a walk around Haifa and the number of blonde-haired, blue-eyed, non-Jewish Ruskies is startling. Forged documents galore.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

The Jewish-Christian alliance is hilarious, at least the Phalange and Israelis were fighting a common enemy... Christian Zionists are using Israel and Jews for armageddon. John Hagee's name is plastered all over the Ariel settlement. When you're as friendless and isolated as Israel you'll take anyone.

Take a look at this article detailing the 2005 'rift' between the Anti-Defamation League and the U.S Christian Right;

http://mediamatters.org/research/200512090002

Donald E. Wildmon, founder and chairman of the American Family Association (AFA), used the occasion of the December 5 broadcast of AFA Report, his daily program on AFA-operated American Family Radio (AFR), to suggest that some members of the religious right would withdraw support for Israel if a prominent activist against anti-Semitism did not cease his criticism of it.

During the broadcast, Wildmon stated that Anti-Defamation League (ADL) President Abraham H. Foxman "got himself kind of in a bind" by criticizing the religious right. "The strongest supporters Israel has are members of the religious right -- the people he's fighting," Wildmon said. "The more he says that 'you people are destroying this country,' you know, some people are going to begin to get fed up with this and say, 'Well, all right then. If that's the way you feel, then we just won't support Israel anymore.'

Wildmon's remarks came after Foxman, in a November 3 address to an ADL meeting, listed AFA among a group of conservative religious organizations whose "goal is to implement their Christian worldview. To Christianize America." Salon.com reported Foxman's remarks on November 29. On December 5, Foxman and Rabbi Eric Yoffie, president of the Union for Reform Judaism, convened a meeting of American Jewish leaders to discuss what Foxman termed the religious right's effort to "Christianize America..."

Another good, but longer, article is found here;

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/07/AR2006010701267.html

 

[Empire_Persian]

Dunno, there's Michaeli but she converted. I thought ethnic nationalism was a bad thing though.

Anyway, take a walk around Haifa and the number of blonde-haired, blue-eyed, non-Jewish Ruskies is startling. Forged documents galore.

Haifa is gorgeous, probably the most multicultural city in Israel. You can find people from every ethnicity roaming Mount Carmel.

 

[Hawkamania!]

Naturie Karta are a batshit crazy wild fringe who oppose zionism due to messianic reasons. They represent about 0.001% of the othodox community.

re. Portman, she was born in Jerusalem and it's hardly unusual for people to be fond of their country of birth, in fact it's highly unusual if they're not.

I was just providing examples that opposition to zionism isn't just reserved for "liberals". Both sides of the political spectrum have their opponents and supporters of zionist Israel.

 

[blackcat]

Arabs and Jews it's virtually impossible. Culturally it's like oil and water, which is why the one-state solution (I think this is looking increasingly likely) will be an unmitigated disaster.

let me return to this, because this is just so wrong. A great example of begging the question. The accepted consensus on Jews=/= Arabs is fundamentally flawed and ignorant of history.

Al Andalus, Cordoba, Maimonides, Jews under Moorish rule, had it better than pogroms on Continental Europe and the Pale of Settlement in Central/Eastern Europe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maimonides
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Andalus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Córdoba,_Spain#History
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Convivencia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Egypt#Arab_Rule_.28641_-_1250.29

perhaps the Zionists have no friends in the region, not because they are Jewish, because that is the psychological projection of guilt ridden Westerners and Europeans, but because they have engaged in ethnic cleansing writ large, and conflict, and refuse the Peace Agreement, I think Nasser first offered in 72, on behalf of the Arab League, which was the return to 67 borders. No other nation, indeed in the UN law charter, has been able to change its borders like Israel did post partition, with the UN's endorsement, under the gerrymandering diaspora lobbying, where the West commandeered votes to the council.

If you accept 48War of Independence as necessary, and I dont, because of Stern Gang, Irgun terrorism which was expelling natives en masse, not to mention the patently unjust partition allocations, if you even concede allocation as just, which I dont either, because cant give a land for self-determination, by denying self determination of natives can you. It sort of is based on contravening the ethic of self-determination.

Israeli historian Zeev Maov: every war Israel has engaged in, with the possible exception of 1948, has been a war of choice.

Other Israelis have agreed with this premise.

 

[Hawkamania!]

I found this essay an interesting read.

http://www.kinghussein.gov.jo/kabd_eng.html

"As the Arabs see the Jews"
His Majesty King Abdullah,
The American Magazine
November, 1947

Summary
This fascinating essay, written by King Hussein’s grandfather King Abdullah, appeared in the United States six months before the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. In the article, King Abdullah disputes the mistaken view that Arab opposition to Zionism (and later the state of Israel) is because of longstanding religious or ethnic hatred. He notes that Jews and Muslims enjoyed a long history of peaceful coexistence in the Middle East, and that Jews have historically suffered far more at the hands of Christian Europe. Pointing to the tragedy of the holocaust that Jews suffered during World War II, the monarch asks why America and Europe are refusing to accept more than a token handful of Jewish immigrants and refugees. It is unfair, he argues, to make Palestine, which is innocent of anti-Semitism, pay for the crimes of Europe. King Abdullah also asks how Jews can claim a historic right to Palestine, when Arabs have been the overwhelming majority there for nearly 1300 uninterrupted years? The essay ends on an ominous note, warning of dire consequences if a peaceful solution cannot be found to protect the rights of the indigenous Arabs of Palestine.

 

[Toriola]

It is unfair, he argues, to make Palestine, which is innocent of anti-Semitism

errr....

 

[Hawkamania!]

errr....

Errr... read the whole letter.

 

[blackcat]

errr....

err, that was one mufti, not democratically elected.

I thought we had a mature discourse, and in comes the hasbara.

The Zionists were indeed inhibiting Jewish emigration to the UK and USA, they would prefer a dead jew in Europe, than a jew selecting UK/USA and new world nations, over Eretz Yisrael.

So dont give us the mufti of Jerusalem, when he was puppet of the installed by the British mandate when there had already been the Balfour declaration, Herzl, Jabotinsky.

The mufti did not represent the anti-semitism of Hitler and the reich.
You need to raise your mufti, with the 1930's and 40's Zionist anti-semites, who were inhibiting jewish emigration from Nazi Germany and Europe.

Jews who are zionists, have indeed been anti-semites who have caused more deaths to jews than the mufti ever could.

He took a political action, when the Empire had endorsed the Balfour, and the League of Nations gerrymandering by a jewish and zionist diaspora was underway.

Your hasbara cannot deny the patent injustice of partition, like Bertrand Russell said.

If you wish, I could find and list all the details of the Jewish plans to evict the natives, of the Jewish terrorism, of their cut throat and racist tactics and politics. But my beef is with Israel the state. Perhaps you may wish to extend a humanity to the Pali's.