Opinion Our problems run deeper than Cloke

[speedytiger]

I watched the game on TV and all night Darcy was blabbing on about Cloke and Dawes.

I watched the replay and I reckon 90% of his words were exactly that, bagging Cloke and Dawes. Sydney game was the same, even when Cloke kicked the match winner he was still trying to bag him.

 

[larrikan]

Free agency doesn't work that way...there exists an option to match any offer and then he can only leave via trade or the draft. If the players are annoyed at him it will be because he has not carried himself well over the season.

For those who haven't worked it out:
Young players = inconsistency. We still have Sinclair, Elliott, Seedsman, Mooney (and even Clarke) in the side. If and when we get back Toovey, Johnson, Krakouer, Goldsack and of course Swan, some of that inconsistency will disappear.

Free agency doesn't work what way?...thanks for explaining half the free agency puzzle. The fact is "when we don't match the million dollar offer, he will leave and the AFL will give us a compensation pick if we don't pick up an equivalent player ourselves"... What I said was we will have at least half a million to chase someone ourselves....and young players equal tired bodies at this time of the year. And I say the players would be annoyed at him for NOT doing what most of them have done - sign for less than there market value to stay together.

Thanks for clarifying my post. I just love the post police here.

 

[SuperSub17]

Free agency doesn't work what way?...thanks for explaining half the free agency puzzle. The fact is "when we don't match the million dollar offer, he will leave and the AFL will give us a compensation pick if we don't pick up an equivalent player ourselves"... What I said was we will have at least half a million to chase someone ourselves....and young players equal tired bodies at this time of the year. And I say the players would be annoyed at him for NOT doing what most of them have done - sign for less than there market value to stay together.

Thanks for clarifying my post. I just love the post police here.

What I was saying is that he can't have agreed to go somewhere else. This is because we can match the offer and he can't leave. Now, I'm not saying that we would do that, in fact we would have rocks in our head if we did, but the point is that the option is still there. It's not like what happened with Scully, Ablett etc. as ultimately we have the final say as to whether he goes or not.

 

[larrikan]

What I was saying is that he can't have agreed to go somewhere else. This is because we can match the offer and he can't leave. Now, I'm not saying that we would do that, in fact we would have rocks in our head if we did, but the point is that the option is still there. It's not like what happened with Scully, Ablett etc. as ultimately we have the final say as to whether he goes or not.

I am only saying the effect on the team. He can informally have agreed to go elsewhere if the Pies have told him say $750,000 is our max due to salary cap and he knows he can get 1.1 million elsewhere then he may have agreed to that. Sure we can match it but those inside the club must know the deal. Team morale seems low. Maxy and shaw we're extra volatile Saturday night. Bucks has a job on his hands to keep the team focused and motivated. It can change in a week. Cloke takes big contested marks this weeks, kicks four goals we win, flag favs again...

This is a bit like a golf major this season. You only have to be in a position to win the flag like the weekend of the golf tournament. Syd, haw and Adel could yet slip. Let's hope the team can pull it together.

 

[jmac70]

I am only saying the effect on the team. He can informally have agreed to go elsewhere if the Pies have told him say $750,000 is our max due to salary cap and he knows he can get 1.1 million elsewhere then he may have agreed to that. Sure we can match it but those inside the club must know the deal. Team morale seems low. Maxy and shaw we're extra volatile Saturday night. Bucks has a job on his hands to keep the team focused and motivated. It can change in a week. Cloke takes big contested marks this weeks, kicks four goals we win, flag favs again...

This is a bit like a golf major this season. You only have to be in a position to win the flag like the weekend of the golf tournament. Syd, haw and Adel could yet slip. Let's hope the team can pull it together.

I don't agree with this. After the win against Sydney the team was being lauded for it's ability to stick together against adversity. One bad loss and suddenly moral is low? A lot of players copped knocks during a very physical game against Sydney and it showed against North. We will have a fresh Swan back into the side not to mention Goldsack, Toovey and possibly Johnson. I give us a great chance against the Eagles however if we do lose we should still finish 4th as the Hawks will beat West Coast in rd23. Given our horrific run with injury I think a 16-6 finish is a great effort. (assuming we beat the Bombers).

 

[rose jam]

Hawks also have the Swans this week in Sydney, so if they lose to the Swans, then we only need to beat essendon to guaranteed 4th since WCE play Hawks in the last round.

And if Hawks win, well Swans should fall out because they play the Cats in round 23 at Skilled.

So really we only need to beat Essendon to get 4th, but a win this week will seal it.

As said, a 16-6 H&A record with our draw and injuries is pretty good.

 

[Pera]

Team lacks pride and have forgotten how to gut run. They get tired and straight away run for the bench. I saw Ben Reid on Saturday night have an 80m sprint in the second quarter, and then just ran straight off the ground. He's our full back, we were small down back compared to the North backs but he needed a breather. Dafuq?

Our losing margins this year: 22, 60, 23, 47, 30.

This side hates it when the going gets tough. There is no plan B. There is no structure going forward. They don't know how to fight like the great sides e.g Geelong, Brions 01-03 etc. Arizona doesn't look like it adds anything late in the year.

We are getting by purely on talent at the moment.

 

[doppleganger]

We are getting by purely on talent at the moment.

???

The talent was either ordinary, or off the park on Sat night.

Because we were able to grind out wins and be challenging for top 2 people seem to forget the outs...

L.Ball missing is starting to hurt, guys like Sidebottom haven't had full seasons as mids yet...so he was never going to be able to sustain his form all year. Pendles hasn't found form since coming back from injury and to add insult to injury Swan wasn't on the park. Our midfield is basically Beams at the moment, with Thomas trying to impose himself.

To further exacerbate problems, two of our best runners and link players - B.Johnson and Didak - have given nothing due to injury so far.

To the OP, Jolly had been just behind Beams as our best player in the St.K and Sydney games....his great work in the ruck sealing the game last Sat night.

Way too many reactionary people on these boards, we will head West beat West Coast, Cloke may kick 5 (like last time) and all of a sudden people are back slapping again.

 

[Pera]

???

The talent was either ordinary, or off the park on Sat night.

Talent can only get you so far. They'll shine one week, play poorly the next without a solid gameplan. That's what I was hinting at.

Because we were able to grind out wins and be challenging for top 2 people seem to forget the outs...

Every teams has outs at this time of the year. Lack of depth due to these injuries is maybe an excuse but we should still be performing at a higher standard.

L.Ball missing is starting to hurt, guys like Sidebottom haven't had full seasons as mids yet...so he was never going to be able to sustain his form all year. Pendles hasn't found form since coming back from injury and to add insult to injury Swan wasn't on the park. Our midfield is basically Beams at the moment, with Thomas trying to impose himself.

When our midfield is firing, no one in the competition can match it. But they too are guilty of fiddling with the ball and over possessing week after week. They also don't seem to have a plan when moving the ball forward, which has been one of our major downfalls this season.

To further exacerbate problems, two of our best runners and link players - B.Johnson and Didak - have given nothing due to injury so far.

These two are getting on, but have experience. I doubt they'll have much of an impact come September.

Way too many reactionary people on these boards, we will head West beat West Coast, Cloke may kick 5 (like last time) and all of a sudden people are back slapping again.

Not so. I have been calm and collected all year. I have been expecting us to build towards September but we are struggling, even in some of our wins. I have no doubt this side has the capabilities to go all the way this season, probably why so many are getting frustrated with our fluctuating form. But the gameplan, or lack there of, is really going to be tested in the next few weeks, and we desperately need a win this week against West Coast if we are any chance of a top four birth. We can then launch from there.

 

[doppleganger]

Every teams has outs at this time of the year. Lack of depth due to these injuries is maybe an excuse but we should still be performing at a higher standard.

It is our 'talent' which isn't performing though.

Cloke, Pendles these two have biggest upside atm.

It aint the top end which is getting us across the line, it is Beams with big contributions from Jolly against the Saints and Swans that have seen us win.

When our midfield is firing, no one in the competition can match it. But they too are guilty of fiddling with the ball and over possessing week after week. They also don't seem to have a plan when moving the ball forward, which has been one of our major downfalls this season.

That first sentence is what Buckley is banking on....that comes finals Pendles, Swan, Thomas, Beams, Sidebottom, Blair, Wellingham will simply be too good....problem is that we aint had them all up and going at any stage yet, and the defensive pressure has been terrible.

These two are getting on, but have experience. I doubt they'll have much of an impact come September.

I am much more optimistic....B.Johnson will push out Clarke, and he is a much better player

Didak, perhaps I am too optimistic with him...but I see him being the bloke who gets 15-20 quality touches and pin points Trav a few times to get his confidence up. A big role to play IMO.

Not so. I have been calm and collected all year. I have been expecting us to build towards September but we are struggling, even in some of our wins. I have no doubt this side has the capabilities to go all the way this season, probably why so many are getting frustrated with our fluctuating form. But the gameplan, or lack there of, is really going to be tested in the next few weeks, and we desperately need a win this week against West Coast if we are any chance of a top four birth. We can then launch from there.

Not many teams have this magical 'Plan B'. MM certainly never had one.

Fluctuating form has hit all sides this year, but all that matters is finishing top 4 and having as many fit players as possible.

In 2012 we are 1 more win from top 4, and we now have more players available than earlier in the year. Sure a home final would be great first up, but we have already won in both Adel and Syd, so no reason why we couldn't go and do it again.

Crazy how despite sitting equal 2nd that so many people are happy to basically throw the season away because of a poor game.

 

[Old Spice]

Have to say the addition of Didak was huge last week, even getting spanked. He's not a 30 pos player now, but he knows how to let traffic run past him and damage with his kicking. BJ, the ultimate crab boy, knows how to kick it from the HB line or to run sideways to break the lines. A great attribute you forget about.

With BJ and Heater running from defence, we have some great escape options.

 

[Chief Ten Beers]

I watched the game on TV and all night Darcy was blabbing on about Cloke and Dawes. I mean, did he or anyone actually watch this game? Sidey, Blair, and Pendles in particular kicked the ball about 2 metres short of the leads constantly. It was terrible. They had no chance to get any fluency and impact the game. It was like the players suddenly lost their pereption of depth at Etihad.
Clear pattern has emerged for us though, if we use the ball long forward we're toast because our smalls aren't good enough and the opposition kill us on the switch. Teams that use the short kick through the field are smashing us because we've got the wrong defensive press going.
Our backline defense is holding up well (despite the unbelievable decision to keep Brown in the team and not have Taz back there) but our run is missing.

Dane Swan will actually fix a lot of this, his presence alone would have made a huge difference as either a midfielder or forward.

Here lies the problem.

You cane rely on one man to fix a team problem. Will never win another flag again off a few individual's backs.

Something drastic needs to be done about the forward line and the bottom players like Marty Clarke.

 

[sloth6]

Strong whisper Taz is announcing is retirement today

 

[Krueger]

Talent can only get you so far. They'll shine one week, play poorly the next without a solid gameplan. That's what I was hinting at.

Every teams has outs at this time of the year. Lack of depth due to these injuries is maybe an excuse but we should still be performing at a higher standard.

When our midfield is firing, no one in the competition can match it. But they too are guilty of fiddling with the ball and over possessing week after week. They also don't seem to have a plan when moving the ball forward, which has been one of our major downfalls this season.

Not so. I have been calm and collected all year. I have been expecting us to build towards September but we are struggling, even in some of our wins. I have no doubt this side has the capabilities to go all the way this season, probably why so many are getting frustrated with our fluctuating form. But the gameplan, or lack there of, is really going to be tested in the next few weeks, and we desperately need a win this week against West Coast if we are any chance of a top four birth. We can then launch from there.

About time others are starting to see the problems we face. Been saying this for months. The warning signs were there long ago. The players are frustrated, the supporters are frustrated and Im sure the coaches are too.

I dont think the players fear or rerspect Buckley as they did Malthouse and are not s well drilled. We were a machine with every player knowing there role and putting everything on the line for their teamates. The 2nd qtr last week proved how bad things have become - we were a mess matchup wise and lost all control.

 

[jmac70]

About time others are starting to see the problems we face. Been saying this for months. The warning signs were there long ago. The players are frustrated, the supporters are frustrated and Im sure the coaches are too.

I dont think the players fear or rerspect Buckley as they did Malthouse and are not s well drilled. We were a machine with every player knowing there role and putting everything on the line for their teamates. The 2nd qtr last week proved how bad things have become - we were a mess matchup wise and lost all control.

I respect your view that we should have kept Malthouse but there is no going back now. The decision to appoint Bucks has been made and he deserves our full support. I believe the majority of supporters are very happy with Buck's performance to date and I have seen no evidence to suggest that the players are not behind him.

 

[Lord of the Pies]

Imo the teams form is the sum of individual performances. So the team as a whole can be judged with one Question:

How many players are having a career best year?

Obviously Beams has been great, and I think cases could be made for Sidebottom, Blair and Toovey. Outside these four, individual form has been inconsistent either due to injury, fitness or in some cases general shitness.

All is not lost though, each week our side looks better "on paper". And at the end of the home/away season we will be be in a position to have a real crack at it. To win, or even make the Granny, the form of a lot of players needs to improve. Hope it can happen.

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

Imo the teams form is the sum of individual performances. So the team as a whole can be judged with one Question:

How many players are having a career best year?

Obviously Beams has been great, and I think cases could be made for Sidebottom, Blair and Toovey. Outside these four, individual form has been inconsistent either due to injury, fitness or in some cases general shitness.

All is not lost though, each week our side looks better "on paper". And at the end of the home/away season we will be be in a position to have a real crack at it. To win, or even make the Granny, the form of a lot of players needs to improve. Hope it can happen.

I like your username.

 

[cleomenes]

As it was in the last grand final, forward delivery is our problem. It is compounded by having two young half forwards who are not great goal kickers at present. They do chase, get the ball and pressure very well, and it is hard to consider the forward line without either of their efforts, but we need the likes of the two easy goals that Sinclair missed from them.
Cloke and Dawes are not the centre of our problems, they will play well at times, and averagely at others. They always contribute. Jolley does all that is asked of him. The defence does well.
Both North and Hawthorn have better kicking skills than us. To beat them in the finals will require a fanaticism that was absent last week, perhaps as a reaction to the great win the week before.
We did need to react to the Shaw mismatch more quickly last week. I thought that we got Rodney Eade for just that purpose.
This week against west Coast will tell us a lot. If Jolley and Dawes can hold the two champion rucks, but particularly Cox, we should win. If we do, we have a chance in the finals, but as possible upset winners, not favorites. If West Coast beat us, we won't win in September.
As supporters, we have to look at this year as one in which our players have overachieved. The ACL's at the start of the year cruelled our hopes for the flag in any practical assessment, and here we are still with a chance, if only a rough one. Remember that our defence has been shuffling the key figures all year, so that confidence has been hard to build. We have been favoured with a good year when a very average one was the most realistic expectation. Any finals success will be a bonus.