North Fined $20,000 - Ridiculous

[Underdog]

The fine is not about that as such. It is moreso about tardiness from the club in responding to the AFL directly and the perceived attitude the North were giving off to the AFL about the whole investigation. North were stupid for not giving the investigation the respect the AFL wanted them to. I am sure you are aware that face is very important to the AFL and even though there was no case to answer re the concussion of Hansen, or lack thereof, North paid the price, a small one, for being petulant about being questioned on this. There was significant displeasure at the AFL questioning the call of the doctors decision on the scene but North should have been wise enough to to the line and make all the right noises.

So why are you and Kangaroos fans getting your knickers in a twist and arguing semantics about how busy the doctor is or isn't when you acknowledge that far more issues caused the fine?

Additionally, why use an emotive and unfounded defence of the doctor as a defence to suggest you're getting screwed when his involvement was only allegedly one facet of the larger problem?

To me it sounds like some Kangaroos fans are trying to deflect from the real causes of the fine by using this doctor argument.

 

[GarnerSmash]

Failing to cooperate with an investigation

But he did cooperate with the investigation.

 

[GarnerSmash]

So why are you and Kangaroos fans getting your knickers in a twist and arguing semantics about how busy the doctor is or isn't when you acknowledge that far more issues caused the fine?

Additionally, why use an emotive and unfounded defence of the doctor as a defence to suggest you're getting screwed when his involvement was only allegedly one facet of the larger problem?

To me it sounds like some Kangaroos fans are trying to deflect from the real causes of the fine by using this doctor argument.

Kangaroos supporters. Well, I can now say all West Coast supporters think that the doctor in question should have cancelled work, at the expense of his patients and hospital, to meet with the AFL when they wanted and how they wanted.

 

[mufassa]

That is incorrect.

Joseph copped the hit late in the 2nd quarter and played on until half time. During the break Jospeh complained of concussion like symptoms and the Dr diagnosed as delayed concussion and he was subbed out of the game and didn't play any part in the 2nd half.

Of course the old delayed concussion. Gets a hit continues to play and when he finally gets his crap together finds out he is not at Movieworld riding the Superman ride so he is subbed out. Walker was subbed out of the game.

Hanson passes all concussion tests. He was fine to play - he actually played better after the knock so maybe he was really badly hurt.

 

[Underdog]

Kangaroos supporters. Well, I can now say all West Coast supporters think that the doctor in question should have cancelled work, at the expense of his patients and hospital, to meet with the AFL when they wanted and how they wanted.

Well, at the bottom I did clarify it as being SOME Kangaroos fans...

But sure, keep deflecting..

I've seen a number of posts from Kanagroos fans that have accepted they stuffed up.

 

[blueboy25]

Of course the old delayed concussion. Gets a hit continues to play and when he finally gets his crap together finds out he is not at Movieworld riding the Superman ride so he is subbed out. Walker was subbed out of the game.

Hanson passes all concussion tests. He was fine to play - he actually played better after the knock so maybe he was really badly hurt.

My mistake Walker was subbed with a calf injury in the first quarter, Joseph was hit in the second and didn't come back on after halftime.

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-match-centre/live-afl-north-melbourne-v-carlton-20120713-220xj.html

 

[Underdog]

But he did cooperate with the investigation.

Cooperate fully.

 

[GarnerSmash]

Well, at the bottom I did clarify it as being SOME Kangaroos fans...

But sure, keep deflecting..

I've seen a number of posts from Kanagroos fans that have accepted they stuffed up.

Deflecting? I'm not: http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/north-fined-20-000-ridiculous.980364/page-5#post-26379196
I'm just calling you out on the absurd notion that the AFL have the right to be pissed off when a doctor needs to reschedule a meeting with the AFL because of hospital commitments and that there should be no room for negotiation when being called in to see their investigators. That is a ludicrous and daft thought.

 

[Underdog]

Deflecting? I'm not: http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/north-fined-20-000-ridiculous.980364/page-5#post-26379196
I'm just calling you out on the absurd notion that the AFL have the right to be pissed off when a doctor needs to reschedule a meeting with the AFL because of hospital commitments and that there should be no room for negotiation when being called in to see their investigators. That is a ludicrous and daft thought.

Who said there wasn't room for negotiation?

By the strict interpretation there doesn't need to be but that doesn't mean they were unwilling.

 

[GarnerSmash]

Who said there wasn't room for negotiation?

No one has.

Except you.


http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/north-fined-20-000-ridiculous.980364/page-5#post-26378703

By the strict interpretation there doesn't need to be but that doesn't mean they were unwilling.

Stop deflecting.

 

[Underdog]

No one has.

Except you.

No I haven't.

The rule says they don't need to allow for negotiation and I have argued on that basis. The clubs must FULLY cooperate.

However, that doesn't mean that the investigators didn't allow negotiation.

The difference is that you are taking a risk if you are hiring someone based on what MAY occur due to goodwill over what CAN occur according to the rules.

 

[n4nirvana]

the AFL and their fines over time

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salary_cap

• [*]Breaches
  The breaches of the salary cap and salary floor regulations outlined by the AFL are exceeding the TPP, falling below the salary floor, not informing the AFL of payments, late or incorrect lodgement or loss of documents relating to player financial and contract details, or engaging in draft tampering. Trading cash for players and playing coaches, formerly common practices, are also prohibited in order to prevent wealthier clubs from evading the salary cap and salary floor regulations.
  Penalties for players, club officials or agents include fines of up to one and one half times the amount involved and/or suspension. Penalties for clubs include fines of up to triple the amount involved ($10,000 for each document that is late or incorrectly lodged or lost), forfeiture of draft picks and/or (since 2003) deduction of premiership points; the latter penalty has never been implemented. As of 2012, no club has been penalised for breaches of the salary floor regulations.
  Documented breaches of the salary cap regulations are as follows:
  [*]

  • In 1987, Sydney were fined the maximum of $60,000 and forfeited their first round pick in the National Draft after a VFL investigation found that they had exceeded the salary cap by $1.15 million during the season.
  • In 1992, Sydney were fined $50,000 after it was found that they had failed to disclose payments made to former player Greg Williams during the 1990 season; Williams was suspended for six matches and fined the maximum of $25,000 for accepting the payments.[27]
  • Hawthorn was fined $28,500 in 1992 for a minor breach in relation to benefit payments.
  • Three clubs were fined for minor breaches in 1993: Melbourne ($13,450), Carlton ($9,750) and Footscray ($2,700).[28]
  • In 1994, Carlton were fined $50,000 after it was found that they had exceeded the salary cap by $85,000 during the 1993 season.[29]
  • In 1995, Sydney were fined $20,000 after key documents relating to player financial details and star full-forward Tony Lockett's contract details were lost in the post by club officials, forcing the club, who had won the last three wooden spoons, to scratch from the 1995 pre-season draft and play the season two players short.[30] The club officials responsible were fired by the Swans one week later.
  • In 1996, Essendon were fined a record $638,250 ($250,000 in back tax and penalties, $112,000 for draft tampering and $276,250 for breaching the salary cap regulations), forfeited their first, second and third round picks in the National Draft and were excluded from the 1997 rookie and pre-season drafts after a joint Australian Tax Office and AFL investigation found that they had committed serious and systematic breaches of the salary cap regulations totalling $514,500 between 1991 and 1996.[31]
  • Ten other clubs were fined in 1996 for minor breaches in a crackdown following the Sydney incident the year before: Fitzroy, St Kilda and North Melbourne ($30,000 each), Richmond ($20,000), and Brisbane, Collingwood, the Western Bulldogs, Fremantle, Hawthorn and the West Coast Eagles ($10,000 each).
  • In 1997, Port Adelaide was fined $50,000 for late lodgement of documents relating to the contract and financial details of five players.[32]
  • In 1998, the West Coast Eagles were fined $100,000 and forfeited their third round pick in the National Draft after it was found that they had exceeded the salary cap by a total of $165,000 during the 1997 and 1998 seasons.
  • Geelong were fined $77,000 in 1998 and excluded from the 1999 pre-season draft after it was found that they had exceeded the salary cap by $154,000 during the 1997 season.
  • Four other clubs were fined in 1998 for minor breaches after an AFL investigation: Collingwood ($47,500), Hawthorn ($45,000), Richmond ($21,000) and the Western Bulldogs ($5,300). Collingwood and Richmond were also excluded from the 1999 pre-season draft.[33]
  • In 1999, Melbourne were fined $600,000 and forfeited their first, second and third round picks in the National Draft for two years after it was found that they had committed serious and systematic breaches of the salary cap regulations totalling $810,000 between 1995 and 1998. Fremantle were handed Melbourne's first round pick for the 1999 National Draft as compensation for losing ruckman Jeff White to Melbourne.
  • Two other clubs were fined in 1999 for minor breaches: Carlton ($43,800) and Geelong ($20,000); Carlton were also excluded from the 2000 pre-season draft.[34]
  • In 2000, Fremantle were fined $54,400 and excluded from the 2001 pre-season draft for a string of minor breaches. Fremantle's poor 2001 season (in which it won the wooden spoon) has been put down to this penalty.
  • Four other clubs were fined in 2000 for minor breaches: North Melbourne ($35,000), Richmond ($10,000), Brisbane ($7,500), and Melbourne ($5,000).[35]
  • In 2001, Carlton were fined $125,150, forfeited their second and third round picks in the 2001 National Draft and were excluded from the 2002 pre-season draft after it was found that they had failed to disclose payments totaling $239,900 to captain Craig Bradley and incorrectly lodged an additional services agreement document during the 1998 and 1999 seasons.
  • Three other clubs were fined in 2001 for minor breaches: Richmond and North Melbourne ($20,000 each) and Melbourne ($5,000).[36]
  • In 2002, Carlton were fined a record $987,500 and forfeited their priority picks in the National Draft, their first and second round picks in the National Draft for two years and were excluded from the 2003 pre-season draft after an AFL investigation found that they had committed serious and systematic breaches of the salary cap regulations totaling $1.37 million between 1998 and 2001; ruckman Matthew Allan was suspended for five matches and fined $10,000 for accepting undisclosed payments from club officials. Carlton struggled for seven years as it recovered both on and off the field from these significant penalties, finishing no higher than 11th in 2004 and winning their first-ever wooden spoons in 2002, 2005 and 2006. After the draft ban expired, Carlton received a multitude of priority and first round draft picks.[37]
  • Fremantle were fined $80,000 in 2002 for late and incorrect lodgement of documents relating to the financial and contract details of four players.
  • In 2003, Brisbane were fined $260,000 for late lodgement of documents relating to the contract and financial details of 26 players, and the Western Bulldogs were fined $30,000 for late lodgement of documents relating to the contract and financial details of three players after a crackdown in light of the Carlton scandal the year before.
  • Essendon were fined $85,000 in 2003 but did not have any points deducted after it was found that they had exceeded the salary cap by $106,000 during the 2002 season.[38]
  • In 2004, Melbourne were fined $30,000 for incorrect lodgement of documents relating to the contract and financial details of three players.[39]
  • In 2005, St Kilda were fined $40,000 for a minor breach in regards to minor sponsor Xbox providing players with the game machines.[40] Brian Waldron, Matt Hanson and Cameron Vale, the club's CEO, CFO and Financial Officer at the time, are currently under investigation by ASIC, the Australian Tax Office, and the Victorian State Revenue Office in relation to the Melbourne Storm salary cap scandal in the NRL.
  • In 2006, St Kilda were fined $40,000 for late lodgement of documents relating to the contract and financial details of four players.[41]
  • Richmond was fined $10,000 in 2007 for late lodgement of a document relating to the contract and financial details of a player.[42]
  • Two clubs were fined in 2008 for minor breaches: Adelaide ($20,000) and St Kilda ($10,000).[43]
  • In 2011, Richmond were fined $10,000 but did not have any points deducted after it was found that they had exceeded the salary cap by $13,000 during the 2010 season.[44]
  • In 2012, Collingwood were fined $20,000 for late lodgement of documents relating to the contract and financial details of two players

  
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salary_cap

 

[mufassa]

My mistake Walker was subbed with a calf injury in the first quarter, Joseph was hit in the second and didn't come back on after halftime.

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-match-centre/live-afl-north-melbourne-v-carlton-20120713-220xj.html

So he played 20 minutes with concussion? That is ok - I won't tell Vlad.

 

[AM]

Stop whining you Shinboners. You're beginning to sound like Hawthorn.

 

[Collingwoodity]

The AFL gives north $20,000 for no good reason and takes back $20,000 for no good reason.

Modernfiscalworld.jpg

nothing to see here

 

[Slattery_20]

Deflecting? I'm not: http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/north-fined-20-000-ridiculous.980364/page-5#post-26379196
I'm just calling you out on the absurd notion that the AFL have the right to be pissed off when a doctor needs to reschedule a meeting with the AFL because of hospital commitments and that there should be no room for negotiation when being called in to see their investigators. That is a ludicrous and daft thought.

I'd love to see some evidence, or a direct quote, that it was as trivial as one meeting not happening purely due to inevitable scheduling issues. I've only heard that from a small handful of other North punters on here.

Particularly since you admitted on the previous page that North were being petulant, and Brayshaw admitted they had screwed up.
To me, I wouldn't be surprised if Daw was right, about it being some issue at the top of the footy dept (cough, Donald).
Almost implied, given they've absolved the doc, the coach, the player, and made a clear statement that an administrator will be handling this stuff from now on.

 

[Slattery_20]

Doctor found to have done the right thing - Yes

Did the NMFC handle it in the correct manner? No

Works out to be a ten grand fine. Pay it, move on & don't ******* let it happen again.

Tend to agree with this.
The actual issue at North was, as it turns out, trivial. But the issue of concussion is very, very serious and just has to be treated as such.

North huffed and puffed but you're never going to beat a massive beauracracy. Regardless of whether it makes sense or not. May as well argue with the ATO. Just do what they bloody say, ask how high, fill out their forms, and move on.

 

[shintemaster]

Underdog?

That's kind of an ironic name considering you're playing the part of the devil's advocate in this thread.

On topic. Who really cares? $20k fine because we didn't say how high when told to jump. Hardly news story of the year.

 

[jacko57]

Tend to agree with this.
The actual issue at North was, as it turns out, trivial. But the issue of concussion is very, very serious and just has to be treated as such.

North huffed and puffed but you're never going to beat a massive beauracracy. Regardless of whether it makes sense or not. May as well argue with the ATO. Just do what they bloody say, ask how high, fill out their forms, and move on.

Agreed, and agreed.