Changes for 4th test

[jhong]

Watson was always an all rounder , i think he was put up the top of the order for the 50 over game and some bright spark thought it would be a great idea to do it at test level. At first it worked but it seems most other countries have worked him out at test level . He is not a test match quality opener any more (if ever he was ) so down at 6-7 is where i would prefer to see him now. I get the feeling he thinks bowling is a chore now , never looks anything more than underwhelmed to be bowling (from what i have seen this tour)

 

[what did you say]

watson has falling out with coach cose he wanted to open,fast foward 3 test now he will bat anywhere, drop the spud bring cowan in,may look ugly batting but atleast cares, like a afl team rebuilding next/this summer drop spuds like watson an warner an back in doolan an burns,smith,maddy, an give them time,there players we can build a team around for the nxt 5 years

i do laugh,i was rogers biggest fan an thought he should of played in india,funny how now he is seen as a soild batsmen an one of our best so wrapped for him

 

[bluespooner]

What a crock.

Swann took five in the first innings, sure. But Australia were looking to force the pace so Swann got lucky with Siddle (heaved across the line), Smith (just trying to smash him) and Warner (chasing runs).

Warner played a defensive shot in getting caught out at first slip. Smith played a shot that had a one in hundred like chance of succeeding, straight bat swing across the line (comical from someone occupying a specialist batting position) given your defence of Smith as a batsman.

Lyon only took one in the first innings, but England were batting super conservatively in that innings, and in the second innings Lyon only got to bowl 3 overs.

If you watched it, you'd know he bowled beautifully.

The reality is that the English batsmen are comfortable playing off-spinners, this is helped by the fact that the majority happen to be right-handed. Nor did Lyons bowl beautifully, he spun the ball significantly less than Swann and nor did he show the control of flight that Swann has mastered; whilst, this is no disgrace I fail to see what Lyon brings to the table for the next test match on a seamer's deck.

It is important for the next test match the bowlers selected are those that are going to make survival as difficult as possible for the English batsmen, with this to date achieved mainly by Harris and Siddle. The way forward should be to include more seamers so there is no respite, by bringing in Bird and Faulkner at the expense of Lyon and Starc.

 

[Vanstead]

watson has falling out with coach cose he wanted to open,fast foward 3 test now he will bat anywhere, drop the spud bring cowan in,may look ugly batting but atleast cares, like a afl team rebuilding next/this summer drop spuds like watson an warner an back in doolan an burns,smith,maddy, an give them time,there players we can build a team around for the nxt 5 years

i do laugh,i was rogers biggest fan an thought he should of played in india,funny how now he is seen as a soild batsmen an one of our best so wrapped for him

Agree 100%. Just wrote this in another thread. With Warner opening again, in three tests so far we've replaced Cowan (ave 31) with Rogers (ave 25) and lost the Ashes in the process. Aren't we lucky Watson has offered to "bat anywhere" now his campaign to open has failed. I cant wait to see what team his mate Uncle Fester serves up.

 

[LukeParkerno1]

If an offspinner doesn't get a chance to bowl in the 3rd/4th innings, how can you say he should have got 3 wickets min?

How is he inaccurate? He's very accurate.

His drift, flight, turn and spin were spot on in that last test. Bowled beautifully.

On that pitch he should have got 3+ in the first innings, Swann did that comfortably. He is very inaccurate as an off spinner, he rarely bowls on the same spot and way too many bad balls down leg. I hope he is dropped, Smith is a better spinner and that is saying something!

 

[courtjester]

Time will tell. I'm a fan. He is our best spinner, and by a significant margin.

 

[LukeParkerno1]

If he is our best spinner, don't play one. He isn't that good. Would rather play Agar or Ahmed.

 

[frankrizzo]

So what bowling figures would agar and ahmed have to put up to make you happy bombers?

For most of his test career lyon has been taking 3-4 wickets a test at an average between 30-34, obviously you think somebody else can put up superior numbers so what figures are a pass mark for our test spinner?

 

[Howard Littlejohn]

If he is our best spinner, don't play one.

Fair enough. Trent Bridge and Chester-le-Street were always the ground where this would be an option. For me the default position is to play a spinner. What would a fourth seamer offer that Lyon doesn't? Especially once batsmen are set.
Spinners often have a harder time sieply because they come on against set batsmen so often. The really good spinners become weapons in their own right and gets a crack earlier, the regular Test match spinner has no such luck and will normally not get the figures of a quick even if they bowl as well simply because of when they bowl. Would a fourth seamer really provide anything else? The one thing a fourth seamer might so is allow for the deserved dropping of Watson.

He isn't that good. Would rather play Agar or Ahmed.

He isn't "that good" compared to Swann or oher top line spinners. He also isn't that bad. He's a useful Test match spinner; nothing much more and certainly nothing less. He is also still the best option.
I do wish he would give the ball a bit more air more often. Not necessarily slowing down his stock ball as most people want, but bowling more of the slower flighted ones to mix in with the stock ball.

 

[The Speaker]

Yep, let's just leave him at 6 for the rest of his career. His bowling is great and quick 40s (or more) will be pretty handy to go along with that.

He'd want to improve his bowling too. His last 12 Tests have garnered him seven wickets at 58.43.

 

[BluesMan]

Rogers
Warner
Watson
Kawa
Clarke
Smith
Haddin
Starc
Siddle
Harris
Lyon

 

[frankrizzo]

He isn't "that good" compared to Swann or oher top line spinners.

he's also nearly 10 years younger than swann, traditional offies who actually have to bowl the ball tend to improve with age.

Swann had played just a single one dayer when he was lyon's age, if we want instant results from our offies well then somebody needs to tell john inverarity to remove his ban on them bowling the doosra as nearly all the instant impact young offies are pelting it.

 

[The Speaker]

Swann had played just a single one dayer when he was lyon's age, if we want instant results from our offies well then somebody needs to tell john inverarity to remove his ban on them bowling the doosra as nearly all the instant impact young offies are pelting it.

 

[Carbine Chaos]

He'd want to improve his bowling too. His last 12 Tests have garnered him seven wickets at 58.43.

I think the importance of his bowling isn't reflected in those stats. Definitely a vital part of our attack.

 

[Kram]

Rogers
Warner
Khawaja
Clarke
Smith
Watson
Haddin
Starc
Siddle
Bird
Lyon

Rest Harris

 

[LukeParkerno1]

So what bowling figures would agar and ahmed have to put up to make you happy bombers?

For most of his test career lyon has been taking 3-4 wickets a test at an average between 30-34, obviously you think somebody else can put up superior numbers so what figures are a pass mark for our test spinner?

My honest answer is this...we pick our best 4 bowlers, whether they be quicks or spinners. They are quicks. Be honest would any spinner be in the top 10 bowlers in Australia? Quick answer- NO. You won't win tests playing average bowlers- that is exactly what Lyon is. Agara has potential though, and that is why I would get him back in the team. Lyon won't cut it, stop persisting with a guy who has failed to bowl out sides in the 4th dig.

 

[LukeParkerno1]

Fair enough. Trent Bridge and Chester-le-Street were always the ground where this would be an option. For me the default position is to play a spinner. What would a fourth seamer offer that Lyon doesn't? Especially once batsmen are set.
Spinners often have a harder time sieply because they come on against set batsmen so often. The really good spinners become weapons in their own right and gets a crack earlier, the regular Test match spinner has no such luck and will normally not get the figures of a quick even if they bowl as well simply because of when they bowl. Would a fourth seamer really provide anything else? The one thing a fourth seamer might so is allow for the deserved dropping of Watson.

He isn't "that good" compared to Swann or oher top line spinners. He also isn't that bad. He's a useful Test match spinner; nothing much more and certainly nothing less. He is also still the best option.
I do wish he would give the ball a bit more air more often. Not necessarily slowing down his stock ball as most people want, but bowling more of the slower flighted ones to mix in with the stock ball.

Steve Smith has got 3 times the amount of wickets this series. I can safely say, I don't want to play a spinner for the sake of it. Is Smith really much of a downgrade...no. At least he turns the ball for starters, at least he flights the ball, and at least he has variations. Where is Lyon's doosra? Every successful offie has a doosra, Lyon has been way too stubborn to even try one. A fourth seamer would at the very least keep the runs down, and you could even have that as James Faulkner and drop Watson (probably bringing in Burns/Maddinson or Doolan, etc). I would rather line up having an attack at full fitness of James Pattinson, Patrick Cummins, Peter Siddle, Ryan Harris or Mitchell Starc with Faulkner to bat 6 or 7. That is much better thyan having some random spinner just for the sake of it. Khawaja bowls offies, Smith bowls, Warner bowls. That is ebnough spinners, even if you state that Clarke won't bowl.

 

[frankrizzo]

My honest answer is this...we pick our best 4 bowlers, whether they be quicks or spinners. They are quicks. Be honest would any spinner be in the top 10 bowlers in Australia? Quick answer- NO. You won't win tests playing average bowlers- that is exactly what Lyon is. Agara has potential though, and that is why I would get him back in the team. Lyon won't cut it, stop persisting with a guy who has failed to bowl out sides in the 4th dig.

Well we won't play 4 quicks often, not on flatter tracks anyway not unless we want clarke suspended for over rates every second test.(even with spinners he's behind every test)

Ok it's agar then what figures would he need to put up for you to call him a successful test spinner?

 

[LukeParkerno1]

Well we won't play 4 quicks often, not on flatter tracks anyway not unless we want clarke suspended for over rates every second test.(even with spinners he's behind every test)

Ok it's agar then what figures would he need to put up for you to call him a successful test spinner?

Well he is 19, so I would be happy for him to average 2 wickets a test for the next 12 months, but I would want that to steadily increase as he adds more variations. I would play Agar as the spinning all-rounder though (i.e. instead of Watson at 6), bat him at 7. You could then still have your 4 quicks as I put as your main bowlers. Have Agar, Warner/ Smith/Khawaja as spin options

 

[frankrizzo]

Well he is 19, so I would be happy for him to average 2 wickets a test for the next 12 months,

So you're willing to accept mediocrity from him as he learns his craft but a still learning lyon has to roll teams to keep his spot?

 

[LukeParkerno1]

So you're willing to accept mediocrity from him as he learns his craft but a still learning lyon has to roll teams to keep his spot?

Mainly because I don't see Agar as a straight out spinner. He is like Starc where he has his batting as an extra bow. Plus with Haddin he could easily bat 6 or 7 anyway. Lyon has had chances after chances to bowl sides out on dead set raging turners and has failed. How often do we persist with a guy who fails to recognise you need a doosra!

 

[western royboy]

Mainly because I don't see Agar as a straight out spinner. He is like Starc where he has his batting as an extra bow. Plus with Haddin he could easily bat 6 or 7 anyway. Lyon has had chances after chances to bowl sides out on dead set raging turners and has failed. How often do we persist with a guy who fails to recognise you need a doosra!

Does Graeme Swann have a Doosra?

 

[frankrizzo]

Mainly because I don't see Agar as a straight out spinner. He is like Starc where he has his batting as an extra bow. Plus with Haddin he could easily bat 6 or 7 anyway. Lyon has had chances after chances to bowl sides out on dead set raging turners and has failed. How often do we persist with a guy who fails to recognise you need a doosra!

mate you have been calling for lyon to be dumped long before agar came on the scene so using his potential batting as the reason you expect so little from him compared to lyon doesn't wash.

As for the doosra, as i mentioned earlier our chairman of selectors has banned our young offies from bowling it.

 

[LukeParkerno1]

mate you have been calling for lyon to be dumped long before agar came on the scene so using his potential batting as the reason you expect so little from him compared to lyon doesn't wash.

As for the doosra, as i mentioned earlier our chairman of selectors has banned our young offies from bowling it.

Yes and now we have found the person with potential for Lyon to go out for. At least before there wasn't anyone better. Now there is- Agar and Ahmed to name two options. The doosra should be bowled and who cares what the chairman says.

 

[LukeParkerno1]

Does Graeme Swann have a Doosra?

Has a variation of one, rarely bowls it though. Is quite a lethal arm ball variation. Lyon doesn't even really have that, and that isn't that difficult.