ASADA relied on 'vague' accounts - The Australian 27/12/13

[Chameleon75]

Interesting. Are you able to give a summary of the applicant's arguments under article 8 and/or a link to the case? I've tried the ECHR database and google but can't find any cases to do with the WADA code.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2011/06/news/the-explainer-whos-in-charge_180672
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/tennis/8449900.stm
http://m.espn.go.com/general/tennis/story?storyId=4741249&src=desktop
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2009/apr/21/drugs-wada-european-union
http://legalperspectives.blogspot.com/2009/10/wada-whereabouts-clause-exploring.html?m=1

A few articles I've dug up, there quite old and I'm not sure what all the outcomes are. I guess the point I was making was that the wada code is increasing been straying into areas of civil rights and as such have opened it up to being challenged in civil courts in some instances. European court being one, breaching indian constitution another. Thats what prompted wada to pursue the harmonisation policy having each country enact specific legislation.

 

[teagueyubeauty]

That's not a good argument, and makes the point I do about s0 not being overly restrictive in that its a bare minimum approach. The drugs you take only need to be approved in an obscure foreign land its not exactly a highly set bar.

I think WADA should safely assume people would only use drugs that are available in their own country for therapeutic use.

They're not assuming anything for gods sake, they're a doping agency not a medical fraternity. What each country does with the status of the legality of the drugs is completely not their concern and never will be.

 

[Boxhead_31]

Any chance that the regulatory approvals could be pushed along - Think of the Easten Bloc in the 70's/80's and 90's.

You do understand once it has been approved it then becomes subject to S2-S9 don't you?

 

[Boxhead_31]

Not that bit specifically. The page 17 accusation of "doping" that goes on to say it was possibly against the code (therefore possibly not) gets us no further than the fact aod is being debated.

The flow of money in connection with the sales of the supplements is what I'd be concerned about. Did dank simply try to draw people from the club further into his web, or were they actually part of the whole thing?

I'd still be surprised, and horrified, if it was the latter. But if I was a HTB foamer type, sickly hoping something untoward did happen so I could feel better about myself, that'd be the place I'd be looking at now to find it.

You asked that if an investigation was to find anything the ACC investigation would be more likely to find any wrong doing to wit I stated like pg17 of the ACC report where it tells of a team that has a bit to be worried about a team that was confirmed by Gillion as being Essendon

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

Ok if you are going to be pedantic with the appeals time ok then. I was just trying to say it will be lodged ASAP with the main point being if it is against usual procedure then the appeal will likely be successful.

No I wasn't being pedantic just consistent as you are the one talking about legal procedure. It would take days and even a week or two to lodge an appeal.

The appeal will be lodged by lawyers representing the people who had blood in those bags because surely they would know there is a chance they are going to be called to give evidence because the blood in some of the bags is theirs and would have sought legal help before the case went to court.

And by appealing they expose themselves because individuals have to bring the action in their name not in the lawyers name.

AFAIK the SADA/UCI has appealed that decision by the judge and I have not heard of any further developments and the blood bags wont be destroyed until that is heard. I would be surprised if it was successful and would probably require that law being passed that they keep mentioning in the articles.

Its more than WADA and UCI who are appealing. Spanish legal authorities are appealing.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2013...ts-to-hear-nine-appeals-in-puerto-case_297547

SAN SEBASTIAN, Spain (VN) — The doping scandal that just keeps giving, Operación Puerto still has legs.
Court officials in Madrid confirmed Wednesday that there are no less than nine appeals to the two-month trial that ended in April with Puerto ringleader Dr. Eufemiano Fuentes landing a one-year sentence.
Officials said a Madrid appeals court would hear the appeals. There was no indication of how long or when that might occur, but with the slow hands of Spanish justice, it could drag on for months.
Among those appealing were defendants Fuentes and former Kelme sport director José Ignacio Labarta, who was condemned to four months in jail.
Others appealing were the Spanish prosecutors office, the state’s attorney’s office, the Italian Olympic Committee (CONI), the World Anti-Doping Agency, the Spanish cycling federation, a lawyer representing former rider Jesus Manzano, and cycling’s world governing body, the UCI.
One major point of contention among the prosecutors was the ruling judge’s decision to destroy up to 200 bags of plasma and blood that were confiscated in the May 2006 police raids.
WADA, the UCI, and others want to have access to the blood bags to try to link them to other possible Fuentes clients.
The Puerto trial ran from late January through early April, with a parade of former Fuentes clients outlining the macabre details of the international blood doping ring. Among those testifying were Tyler Hamilton and Jörg Jaksche.
Fuentes and Labarta were the only defendants found guilty. Ex-Kelme sport director Vicente Belda, ex-Once boss Manolo Saiz, and Fuentes’ sister, Yolanda, were found not guilty of charges of endangering public health.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2013...ts-to-hear-nine-appeals-in-puerto-case_297547

What gives the judge the right is procedure. What do you think they would do with 100's of blood bags that have been used in a case and completed? Store them some where, where in a case like this they could be innocent people duped by a doc? They would destroy them bar someone (who has a right to them) wanting them back. Now I am pretty sure the owners of that blood will be pretty happy for the court to destroy them.

What do they do in criminal case? They keep the evidence in storage for years after the cases. Why can't they keep the blood bags for years? They have done so for 7 years already whats another couple of decades. It isn't the blood thats evidence its the name of who the blood bags belong to.

The blood bags were to store the blood for transfusions later on. They aren't evidence of containing steroids, hgh, epo etc. Its evidence of blood doping a banned method not evidence of banned substances.

There are 200 blood bags so its somewhere between 70 and 200 individuals involved. There is one reason why the blood was in the bags. Dr Fuentes wasn't a department or sub branch of the Red Cross or the Spanish equivalent. The judge should rule that the sports people could have their blood bags bag but they would have to have the blood transfused back into their bodies in front of court officials. A bit of innovative sentencing wouldn't hurt anyone. I bet there is nothing in Spanish law stopping the judge from making that sort of ruling.

Bottom line - the blood is in the bag for transfusions so let what was initially intended happen in full view of the court.

Nobody bothers to look up what would happen in a case where blood bags are involved but they don't belong to anybody famous or that might have repercussions with a anti doping authority do they?
Why would they keep innocent parties to a criminal trial blood?

I have no idea what you are getting at here. How is anyone innocent? They haven't been tried. There is only one reason why Fuentes had blood bags for sports people. If they aren't sports people then its all above board. But come on, how many doctors keep blood bags of their clients, where there clients are not sportsmen and women trying to get some edge.

 

[yodellinhank]

You asked that if an investigation was to find anything the ACC investigation would be more likely to find any wrong doing to wit I stated like pg17 of the ACC report where it tells of a team that has a bit to be worried about a team that was confirmed by Gillion as being Essendon

And I said page 17 says a team which was using supplements intravenously which may or may not have been against the code. It says they may or may not have been at a higher dosage level than wada approves for iv.

That means less than what we have learnt from the subsequent asada investigation. You can take it as essendon using aod. I'm not concerned over the use of aod itself as much as I am the question that the club may have been enticed into using it by people who stood to gain financially by a spike in its use. People involved in that regard should be looked at and that includes hird and evans.

The whole aod = banned seems more of a lame duck the longer this goes on. And if asada need to rely on selective evidence to make a case against, then it only makes the whole thing look lamer.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

the Fuentes ones in MAdrid?

They basically swept aside everything on tennis players(see:Nadal) and the Real Madrid and Barca footbol teams.

They did not test the bags of the cyclists, they just gave away the codenames for cyclists, then forums/fora had a field day, trying to match the codename to the rider.

birillo was basso. birillo his dog! amigo de birillo was giovanni lombardi, his domestique and cipollini's former leadout rider.

forgot cancellara, now, remember it, supposedly classicomano was cancellara.

was quite funny, such laffs, the cycling fora i contributed to had much funs

Ok so the names werren't officially released, but it got out. So why not the same ffor the other athletes??

 

[blackcat]

Ok so the names werren't officially released, but it got out. So why not the same ffor the other athletes??

shit. i was supposed to answer this before. because it is the most salient factor MaddAdam

from top down. re: Spain, domestic politics, Primera Leaga

sports minister and justice minister. think tony abbott credlin executive decision. this came from the top.

why do we get wylie and fitzpatrick calling rank on demetriou. demetriou is still talking to the pleb v the top end of town. i concede, demtriou holds alot of sway, perhaps, pro rata, more than other domestic sports administrators. north american included

 

[blackcat]

First week of 2014 over - no infractions.

see: Wylie and Fitzpatrick

see also, Ahmed Saad. hung out to dry. sacrifice of old testament proportions, not not really, he was just a lemming easily excised. Little could give him some Toll stock

 

[The Dodger]

No I wasn't being pedantic just consistent as you are the one talking about legal procedure. It would take days and even a week or two to lodge an appeal.

And by appealing they expose themselves because individuals have to bring the action in their name not in the lawyers name.

Its more than WADA and UCI who are appealing. Spanish legal authorities are appealing.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2013...ts-to-hear-nine-appeals-in-puerto-case_297547


http://velonews.competitor.com/2013...ts-to-hear-nine-appeals-in-puerto-case_297547


What do they do in criminal case? They keep the evidence in storage for years after the cases. Why can't they keep the blood bags for years? They have done so for 7 years already whats another couple of decades. It isn't the blood thats evidence its the name of who the blood bags belong to.

The blood bags were to store the blood for transfusions later on. They aren't evidence of containing steroids, hgh, epo etc. Its evidence of blood doping a banned method not evidence of banned substances.

There are 200 blood bags so its somewhere between 70 and 200 individuals involved. There is one reason why the blood was in the bags. Dr Fuentes wasn't a department or sub branch of the Red Cross or the Spanish equivalent. The judge should rule that the sports people could have their blood bags bag but they would have to have the blood transfused back into their bodies in front of court officials. A bit of innovative sentencing wouldn't hurt anyone. I bet there is nothing in Spanish law stopping the judge from making that sort of ruling.

Bottom line - the blood is in the bag for transfusions so let what was initially intended happen in full view of the court.

I have no idea what you are getting at here. How is anyone innocent? They haven't been tried. There is only one reason why Fuentes had blood bags for sports people. If they aren't sports people then its all above board. But come on, how many doctors keep blood bags of their clients, where there clients are not sportsmen and women trying to get some edge.

We are on different tangents. You seem to think I don't think they are doping. I do, I am just saying I don't like how it is reported that the destruction of the bags is somehow definitely corrupt.

The timeframe of the appeal means nothing to what i am saying. Forget time frames they will lodge an appeal and it will be heard then. They won't be able to do anything with the bags until that is heard.
You are correct they will be named but I am uncertain to as that will help WADA/SADA as I assume what they were able to act upon was evidence given in court by cyclists that named names and admitted doping/seeing other dope.
I also wrote SADA not WADA so that is the Spanish authorities that have appealed as I said, in answer to your how come they can't appeal? From your previous post
"And talking of appeals this is a minor court ie not the highest in the land so what gives a judge the right to say evidence must be destroyed before an appeal to a highet court by the Spanish authorities who wanted access to the blood bags."

So they have appealed AFAIK the blood hasn't been destroyed and based on your argument you think it will be successful, I don't... unless they get that new legislation passed that they keep talking about.

Well of course they kept the bags until trial my point being what do they usually do with biological evidence no longer required? If they don't usually destroy it then the appeal might be successful, however I believe they do destroy it. I use the term innocent as that is how the court sees them. They weren't on trial, their doctor was... so for all intense and purpose they are innocent party in a criminal trial…as I said if doping was criminal it would go further but why does a criminal court have to consider the implications of athletes in a private contract between the athlete and their sporting body?

He was given a suspended sentence for endangering the health of the public, or thereabouts. It was nothing relating to specifically helping people dope. Who was he endangering you ask??? The public…i.e. athlete no. 3 (who happens to be a member of the public) who was convinced that it be a good idea to have blood taken stored unprofessionally and injected later by a doctor facing trial.

I will say it again…you and I know they were doping…what the court can / can't do is not tied up in anti-doping legislation (yet) so unless she is behaving in a manner that is unconstitutional (in Spain) she is doing nothing wrong. The only reason why she may have decreed the evidence be destroyed is that someone (who has no right to it) was asking for it and she let them know what happens to it. It is not a symbol of corruption unless Spanish authorities usually keep 3rd party criminal evidence after a trial is completed and the appropriate appeals have been heard.

I would love for the court to hand them over and names named but i don't like the fact people are using this as a sign of corruption I am saying it is the normal procedure and it is WADA that are hoping for something unusual to be granted.

 

[The Dodger]

They're not assuming anything for gods sake, they're a doping agency not a medical fraternity. What each country does with the status of the legality of the drugs is completely not their concern and never will be.

You obviously didn't read my other posts…that is what I was saying…I used the qualifier "should" assume in that as a side it is ok for them to make legislation based around the fact you shouldn't use drugs that aren't approved in your country.

 

[The Dodger]

yeah, but it is not even about civil liberties and plausible deniability and 7am wake-up calls from the ASADA piss testers collectors.

its about a pure hypocrisy. the players are enabled, and sponsored to win on saturday or each olympiad. when they sacrifice to achieve performance, albeit, there is/are some significant rewards, and all the playing corp will concede, that they are allowed to take gear for performance, as long as there is no blow-back or hurt to the competition by being so egregious or failing tests. the fans want a win, and want a spectacle, and want performance.

Was just in reference to the publics behaviour as enablers and then if you dare get caught doping then "off with your head... forget procedure in a criminal trial we want blood (and the names on each bag)"

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

....

I will say it again…you and I know they were doping…what the court can / can't do is not tied up in anti-doping legislation (yet) so unless she is behaving in a manner that is unconstitutional (in Spain) she is doing nothing wrong. The only reason why she decreed the evidence be destroyed is that someone (who has no right to it) was asking for it and she let them know what happens to it. It is not a symbol of corruption unless Spanish authorities usually keep 3rd party criminal evidence after a trial is completed and the appropriate appeals have been heard.

I would love for the court to hand them over and names named but i don't like the fact people are using this as a sign of corruption I am saying it is the normal procedure and it is WADA that are hoping for something unusual to be granted.

I don't want to go on and on, but I have never said or implied the judge is corrupt, but this case has been interfered with for political reasons because Fuentes tentacles stretch far and wide and restricting this to cycling has been very convenient.

The court has wide discretion both in civil and common law systems. I am skeptical not because WADA want the info but because the Spanish Guarda Civil - ie federal police investigations were restricted by political interference, the whole investigation and court case has been restricted to cyclists, Fuentes has threatened to name names outside of court, blood bags are only there for one reason - Fuentes isn't a sub branch of the Red Cross, there is no need to destroy evidence and the application of common sense seems to be ignored to protect legal procedure.

The appeals might well get to the real truth.

 

[The Dodger]

I don't want to go on and on, but I have never said or implied the judge is corrupt, but this case has been interfered with for political reasons because Fuentes tentacles stretch far and wide and restricting this to cycling has been very convenient.

The court has wide discretion both in civil and common law systems. I am skeptical not because WADA want the info but because the Spanish Guarda Civil - ie federal police investigations were restricted by political interference, the whole investigation and court case has been restricted to cyclists, Fuentes has threatened to name names outside of court, blood bags are only there for one reason - Fuentes isn't a sub branch of the Red Cross, there is no need to destroy evidence and the application of common sense seems to be ignored to protect legal procedure.

The appeals might well get to the real truth.

Yeah I am talking about the way the case is reported. You were arguing that way as well so I assumed. I have no doubt there may be bigger people involved I just don't think the destruction of the bags is a sign that WADA don't have teeth and that the judge is dodgy.
If the judge did something that is unusual in saying that the bags will be destroyed then the appeal by SADA/UCI will be successful. IMO its the other way.

I am unaware of a criminal hearing taking into account civil/common contracts as part of the hearing (bar a contract that requires the contractee to commit crime which is a criminal matter in itself). Particularly for 3rd parties to the trial.

As for the need to destroy evidence from what I understand its what is done. Its not protecting legal procedure its following it something they are obliged to do.

 

[swans2014]

http://velonews.competitor.com/2011/06/news/the-explainer-whos-in-charge_180672
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/tennis/8449900.stm
http://m.espn.go.com/general/tennis/story?storyId=4741249&src=desktop
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2009/apr/21/drugs-wada-european-union
http://legalperspectives.blogspot.com/2009/10/wada-whereabouts-clause-exploring.html?m=1

A few articles I've dug up, there quite old and I'm not sure what all the outcomes are. I guess the point I was making was that the wada code is increasing been straying into areas of civil rights and as such have opened it up to being challenged in civil courts in some instances. European court being one, breaching indian constitution another. Thats what prompted wada to pursue the harmonisation policy having each country enact specific legislation.

No worries, cheers for the links.

The ECHR connection seems to come from the ban given to Belgian tennis player Yanina Wickmayer in 2009 for not reporting her whereabouts.

In the end the ban was overturned, but some of the news reports at the time stated that her lawyers would be launching an application to to ECtHR, which seemingly never happened, and also seems unlikely given the Court's admissibility criteria.

 

[Jock]

you are going to have to close your account down if there are ever infractions.

Hopefully none through the NAB cup either and then bang on the eve of the season would be spot on.

 

[kelvin_sheedy]

Hopefully none through the NAB cup either and then bang on the eve of the season would be spot on.

Well the xmas stocking never came filled with infractions ruining the festive period for lots of people on here.

You keep hoping though.

 

[SunshineBoy]

A bit more on Werner Reiterer.

Bad News Bearer

Read more: Bad News Bearer - TIME http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2056102,00.html#ixzz2pPhfKlmH

Smacks of We Are Australians how dare anyone say we are drug cheats doesnt it....

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

Smacks of We Are Australians how dare anyone say we are drug cheats doesnt it....

To be fair, announcing this a few months before the Olympics, where several billion dollars had been committed, was always going to get AOC and others sports officials back up.

 

[Laphroaig]

Well the xmas stocking never came filled with infractions ruining the festive period for lots of people on here.

You keep hoping though.

You forgot to put the grand final season and the syringe activity in there.

You keep believing against all reason that a longer investigation equals a better result though.

 

[yaco55]

WADA have zero interest in keeping illegal drugs out of sport.

WADA's interest remains keeping prohibited drugs out of sport. Have you been studying at the Little school of legal terms?

According to the WADA, SO code, if a country has given a substance therapuetic approved its right to go. So in other words a tin pot country gives approval WADA is unconcerned. WE are discussing the application of the SO Code in a general sense, we are not discussing Hirs/Dank/Armstrong etc.

 

[BigJoeD_]

You forgot to put the grand final season and the syringe activity in there.

You keep believing against all reason that a longer investigation equals a better result though.

You gotta admit though, that's a lot of 'I's and a lot of 'T's

 

[yaco55]

If its approved in an eastern block country then anyone can use it. As I was saying they are not trying to even go as far as the law hence not over reaching.
Level playing field.

The prescribing doctor might face trouble from your local authorities if its not approved in your country but no problem with WADA.

But its not a level playing field if the substance is banned by Governments in many countries. And to use this approved product, you must source it from overseas, and of course, you could be stopped by customs. And of course you open up the ' Black Market '.

And if the Eastern Bloc was still a force, they would have exploited the SO code.

 

[yaco55]

Yep. Corcoran has been a mentor to Hird for a long time. Being a true believer was one of the things Danny mentored young Jim in.

Corc, the ex athletics man, was also Footy Director at Melbourne in the year Woewodin found his way to Shane Charter.

Some sense in this post.

Charter only had 20 or 30 AFL players on his books.

 

[Laphroaig]

You gotta admit though, that's a lot of 'I's and a lot of 'T's

Ah another throw away line. With no meaning.

Do you really believe that a longer investigation = a lesser likelihood of bad news?

Or are ASADA a part of the global conspiracy against Essendon too? "Nothing to see here" is easy, and clears your desk for something else. If there's nothing to see, there's no reason at all to delay saying so.