Richmond - A patchwork of Ordinary

[Shatterpoint]

They weren't last week. Stood up when they needed to.

They didn't exactly stand up, Richmond very extremely lucky that we can't kick goals, or Carlton would have won by 4 goals.

 

[The Blue Baggers]

any team with grigg & hampson in their best team is going nowhere

 

[Barry_Badrinath]

I think they just need to tap Francis Jackson on the shoulder and go after a real gun when it comes to list management.

He's failed dismally IMO.

He took over as our main recruiter in 2006. Since then his early round picks have been Jack Riewoldt, Trent Cotchin, Alex Rance, Tyrone Vickery, Dustin Martin, Ben Griffiths, Reece Conca, Brandon Ellis and Nick Vlastuin. He's done extremely well with the high draft picks, in fact, he's probably been the best in the AFL in that department. He also had Scott Selwood (for pick 19 in 2007) and Rory Sloane (for pick 42 in 2008) lined up before Wallace went and traded them for Jordan McMahon and Adam Thomson.

The only trouble he's had has been those picks in the 25-50 range. We've had Shane Edwards (26), Post (26), Astbury (35), Dea (44), Batchelor (30), Helbig (44), McIntosh (31), McBean (33), McDonough (42). That list is pretty ordinary although McDonough is looking very promising.

The recruiting from other clubs has been very good (Houli, Chaplin, Maric, Hampson all valuable team members) but the club seem to have gone a bit overboard with the rookie draft players. Players that were drafted as depth are finding themselves getting regular games (Petterd, Thomas).

 

[chunkylover53]

They weren't last week. Stood up when they needed to.

Fell over the line and almost gave up a 6 goal lead - again. Garlett kicks his goal and Carlton win.

Anyway, its round 3. Stupid to write anyone off. 2012 Collingwood v Carlton round 3, Carlton won by 10 goals and rose to flag favourites and Collingwood were tipped to miss the 8. Collingwood made top 4 and Carlton missed the 8.

But their cloggers are concerning, not entirely Dimmas fault though, building decent bottom 6 players is tough when all the drafts are compromised. Need to nail the next few drafts.

I think the fact (it appears) almost every other club has improved this year is a factor too.

 

[Barry_Badrinath]

They didn't exactly stand up, Richmond very extremely lucky that we can't kick goals, or Carlton would have won by 4 goals.

Just found my new signature lol.

 

[Tiger_4_Life]

Do people realise that this approach was needed as all the young talent was taken away?

My assessment is that we are mental and definitely have deficiencies but i think this approach has been successful and made us competitive. But no where near a flag.

Grigg needs to go
Thomas has been great for a rookie pick
Hampson has been ok and is now injured
Maric has been great
Chaplin was very good last year and is now very much out of sorts. Wasn't a big fan
Stephenson is a rookie pick back up ruckman as our first two are injured
Houli has been great but is down this year
Petterd has been ok but needs to be replaced sooner rather than later.

No need to rebuild our list, we have plenty of youngsters tucked away and our core talent is still young.

My question marks are on Dimmas game day prowess

 

[Barry_Badrinath]

Fell over the line and almost gave up a 6 goal lead - again. Garlett kicks his goal and Carlton win.

Anyway, its round 3. Stupid to write anyone off. 2012 Collingwood v Carlton round 3, Carlton won by 10 goals and rose to flag favourites and Collingwood were tipped to miss the 8. Collingwood made top 4 and Carlton missed the 8.

But their cloggers are concerning, not entirely Dimmas fault though, building decent bottom 6 players is tough when all the drafts are compromised. Need to nail the next few drafts.

I think the fact (it appears) almost every other club has improved this year is a factor too.

If by "fell over the line" you mean "stood up in the final 10-15 minutes of the game and kicked the last 2 goals" then yes I agree.

 

[Sprout]

I'm really enjoying how people are trying to come up with alternative titles to what is essentially another 'where are they at' thread.

Haha..so true.

 

[jko'neal]

Mental short people is also a factor

Spot on, we played 25 mins of decent footy yesterday and in the previous 2 games not much more. And in the end yesterday after the Dogs played out of their skin all match, it was our mental meltdowns that got them over the line.

 

[Shatterpoint]

Just found my new signature lol.

Glad I could help.

 

[chunkylover53]

If by "fell over the line" you mean "stood up in the final 10-15 minutes of the game and kicked the last 2 goals" then yes I agree.

If you're genuinely happy with that win and consider it either "gutsy" or "standing up", then you didn't really watch the game.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Called this ages ago.

When they actively recruited Sam Lonergan and he got a game, I thought something's not right with this list.

It's just dripping with mediocrity.

 

[master bate]

So we know about their drafting mistakes in the mid 2000's. Since then they nailed the first round picks. They also did ok in 2009 with Martin, Griffiths, Astbury, Grimes with a few misses.

But consider the effect of expansion.

2010 - Finish second last - get:
1st round pick 6 (Conca). Should've got pick 2 and Harley Bennell
2nd round pick 30! (should be pick 18-20) - got Bachelor
3rd round pick 47 (traditionally would be mid 30's pick) - Helbig

2011 - Finish 12
1st round (Not until pick 14!) - Ellis
2nd round - trade for Maric (Good call)
3rd round - Arnot

Remember that prelisted players of significant talent like Zac Smith, Jeremy Cameron and Treloar have been taken out of these draft groups, further depleting the talent.

So Richmond brought together a young talented core of Cotchin, Deledio, Martin, Riewoldt, Grimes, Rance, Ellis, Conca etc but just when they needed to be adding fresh talented kids to develop with them they just didn't have the draft picks available. They almost had to go down the mature age path. The chances of finding a talented kid late in the 2010 or 2011 drafts were very low.

However they have now gone too far. Whilst trading for Hampson and having big O as back up ruck makes some sense as it's a specialist position and other moves like Chaplin for some veteran experience down back they have pushed it too far for ordinary players. Already this year they've seen injuries force them to use Astbury and Griffiths and they've proven better than giving games to battlers like Aaron Edwards or Stephenson. Now it's time to sort through Petterd, King, Thomas, Gordon etc and find who is actually of real benefit and who is just holding a spot with no real improvement to the team. Those who aren't giving much should be replaced by Helbig, Arnot, Dea, McDonough etc as the upside to the team to get guys with some unknow potential could be massive. This is a touch facetious but picking all these good ordinary footballers as Richmond are right now is a fast track to 9th.

 

[master bate]

Called this ages ago.

When they actively recruited Sam Lonergan and he got a game, I thought something's not right with this list.

It's just dripping with mediocrity.

Hibberd (pre 2013), Pears, Baguley down back. Howlett, Hocking and Lonergan in the guts. Davey, Kommer forward. Nathan Lovett-Murray. I think Essendon have carried more than a few over the last few years from the latter Knights to early Hird years but credit to them for pushing passed it and recognising who is and isn't quality and replacing them with some kids. Plus developing players who were on that cusp. Essendon probably face the same issue that the skinny 2010 and 2011 drafts have hurt their stocks of decent kids who should be cementing themselves now and hence a few injuries can really impact the bombers but they seem to have come through overall with a deeper spread of talent than Richmond.

 

[blitzer]

I think people are going a bit too early on this one. They've had 3 pretty close games so far, obviously losing 2 but its hardly panic stations at this stage of the season.

I thought it was a bit facetious of the OP to say they had Cotchin, when clearly the tigers top 5 is very good by any standard. I mean coming into this year my expectations were that they would aim to win a final - they can still achieve that. I still have confidence they will make finals at the least.

That said they probably do still need to turnover parts of their list before they become a premiership quality team - but nobody (not even their own supporters) have said they are there yet. I don't have that much confidence in Hardwick to take them there either, but I think that belongs in another thread.

 

[Chopperdave]

So we know about their drafting mistakes in the mid 2000's. Since then they nailed the first round picks. They also did ok in 2009 with Martin, Griffiths, Astbury, Grimes with a few misses.

But consider the effect of expansion.

2010 - Finish second last - get:
1st round pick 6 (Conca). Should've got pick 2 and Harley Bennell
2nd round pick 30! (should be pick 18-20) - got Bachelor
3rd round pick 47 (traditionally would be mid 30's pick) - Helbig

2011 - Finish 12
1st round (Not until pick 14!) - Ellis
2nd round - trade for Maric (Good call)
3rd round - Arnot

Many other teams were just as effected by expansion. Take Port for instance despite how terrible everyone claimed we have been over the past 5-6 seasons we only ever got picks 7, 6, 16, and pick 8. Not to mention the change in priority rules that helped Hawks and Collingwood both win Premierships. So all up we probably missed out on 5 top 5 draft picks if we used the old priority and uncompromised draft rules.

The difference being that through trading Port also added picks 8, 16 plus Ebert, Monfries and Polec who were also all first round picks rather than trading in rookies and mid level players like Richmond has.

 

[Belnakor]

King and S.Edwards are very average footballers.

Yup. Any team playing those two spuds on a regular basis will never make the top 4.

 

[tribey]

Chaplin's weekly brainfades at critical times sting a bit, hey. Still in therapy.

 

[master bate]

Many other teams were just as effected by expansion. Take Port for instance despite how terrible everyone claimed we have been over the past 5-6 seasons we only ever got picks 7, 6, 16, and pick 8. Not to mention the change in priority rules that helped Hawks and Collingwood both win Premierships. So all up we probably missed out on 5 top 5 draft picks if we used the old priority and uncompromised draft rules.

The difference being that through trading Port also added picks 8, 16 plus Ebert, Monfries and Polec who were also all first round picks rather than trading in rookies and mid level players like Richmond has.

I'm not saying it didn't effect other sides. And Port are like Richmond in that they nailed first round picks (even better than Richmond) along the way. Probably the timing of things post 2010 and 2011 you still weren't expected to do much in 2012/2013 so didn't panic and go for a bunch of mature players where Richmond had a side on the rise so had to supplement them.

Polec has been a very nice little boost for Port. It was mentioned Richmond were in to Tyson and Adams and it wouldn't surprise me to see them showing continued interest in GWS players. I can't be bothered looking it up but I bet Port just like a lot of sides would be looking at their second, third and forth round draft picks from 2010 and 2011 and seeing not a lot to look forward to.

 

[Ron The Bear]

If you're genuinely happy with that win and consider it either "gutsy" or "standing up", then you didn't really watch the game.

So Carlton's run ended 15 minutes from the end?

 

[Ron The Bear]

Chaplin's weekly brainfades at critical times sting a bit, hey. Still in therapy.

Most players changing clubs, if they're going to fire, will do it in their first year at their new club. As mentioned, Chaplin was terrific last year but this season seems to have gone back to mediocrity. He's one we're counting on to lift.

 

[Jobe Watson]

I was saying last year I thought it was a mistake for Richmond to continually keep topping up their list with D-grade depth players via the rookie and pre-season drafts. They were acting as if they were a shoe in for finals each year and only needed to add experienced depth players to push for a flag.

They've done alright with a few of them, but most of their pickups have been hacks that wouldn't last 2 years. Miller, Hislop, A.Maric, Lonergan. I never thought this was the route they should be taking and it's looking like being correct. Now, instead of having untried 20 year old kids who are full of potential and can be molded into potential future best 22 players as depth, they have spuds like Stephenson and Banfield who will take them nowhere and average players like Thomas and Petterd who aren't good enough to be there for their next premiership. These middle-age, low-quality players are not only stopping young Richmond kids like Lennon from getting a game (who have way more potential than any of these blokes), but they're also taking Richmond nowhere fast.

Look at Essendon for example. We're just as close if not closer to a premiership than Richmond and we still go for new kids in the rookie draft. I would have been very disappointed if we missed out on Patrick Ambrose, who looks a very lively type and is close to solidifying himself in our 22, by drafting some 26 year old AFL reject who has very little room for improvement. Ambrose has the potential to be a staple of our team for 7-8 years (if he continues with his great start to the year), whereas the AFL reject gives us 3 years of service at best.

 

[Goggin Our Best]

I think Richmond Carlton Nth Melb and Adelaide are stuck in quick sand -and aernt really improving - i think they are all unfortunate that the 2 expansion clubs came in (who got access to all the top talent)

If the 2 new clubs hadnt have come in - those clubs - not that far outside from the top ones - would have got access to some new talent -needed to improve

I think Pt Adelaide were lucky- in the sense - they bottomed right out -and at the right time- and got a stack of top 10 picks (and unlike Melbourne didnt waste them) and picked very well - Hartlett etc- and thus their team have improved out of sight.

Those 2 news teams coming in - are one of the reasons why Hawthorn and Geelong havent dropped off- because its put a hand brake on some other teams improving

 

[Barry_Badrinath]

I'd just like to remind everyone that Richmond have a 16-10 record since the start of last year. I wouldn't go saying they've failed based off one loss to a minnow with several key players out. Disappointing start for sure but the sky isn't falling just yet.

 

[bombermick]

They have picked up some very good players in recent drafts from their first-rounders, but they haven't picked a gun in a number of years. But it's their later round drafting that is the real worry; who is the last kid they picked late that excites?