No Oppo Supporters CAS hands down guilty verdict - Players appealing - Dank shot - no opposition - (cont in pt.2)

[EnolaGay]

Agree and have done for 12+ months.. there is simply no evidence available in the public (and most of it appears to be 'out' anyway) that suggests that ASADA can even put TB4 at EFC.. let alone in a needle for a specific player.

I find it incredible that this farce has gone on this long.

This image captured of a vehicle in the recovery pool at Windy Hill has me very concerned.

Clearly TB4 was on site at EFC.

 

[cymarak]

The AFL tribunal's "comfortable satisfaction" standard of proof doesn't fill me with confidence tbh. Are there precise requirements for this standard of proof? The term just sounds a bit subjective and flaky and a long way from "beyond reasonable doubt" that's all.

There are no precise requirements for 'comfortable satisfaction', and I don't think there could be.

There's no way to objectively measure probability in these sorts of scenarios, so even if there were some specified confidence level required - e.g. minimum 75% probability - how on earth do you actually work out what the actual number is ? In other words, if ASADA has to 'get' 75%+ to get a conviction, how does the tribunal look at the evidence and work out what percentage ASADA has actually got ?

I don't know that there are any precise requirements for 'beyond reasonable doubt' either - I think the principle is just that each juror / judge decides for themselves what that means in reality.

It's a subjective area, and there's no way around it.

 

[rines]

There are no precise requirements for 'comfortable satisfaction', and I don't think there could be.

There's no way to objectively measure probability in these sorts of scenarios, so even if there were some specified confidence level required - e.g. minimum 75% probability - how on earth do you actually work out what the actual number is ? In other words, if ASADA has to 'get' 75%+ to get a conviction, how does the tribunal look at the evidence and work out what percentage ASADA has actually got ?

I don't know that there are any precise requirements for 'beyond reasonable doubt' either - I think the principle is just that each juror / judge decides for themselves what that means in reality.

It's a subjective area, and there's no way around it.

Yeah.. tricky in criminal law vs contract law vs civil law too..

But I do know that you need a case that doesn't even one 'maybe potentially'.. let alone having the 3-4 that ASADA seem to.

 

[VelvetSledge]

This image captured of a vehicle in the recovery pool at Windy Hill has me very concerned.

Clearly TB4 was on site at EFC.

Greatest thing I've seen all day.

 

[60sbomber]

The massive hole in the Charters text and emails, is Dank doesn't mention Essendon. The story unravels pretty quickly after that.

ASADA would have pored over every email and text hoping to find some reference to Essendon. The fact that it isn't there says a lot. Our lawyers at the tribunal should stress this.

 

[boncer34]

Or, you know, they're waiting for Hird's appeals to be exhausted like they said from the get go.

.

When?

 

[Run and carry]

There are no precise requirements for 'comfortable satisfaction', and I don't think there could be.

There's no way to objectively measure probability in these sorts of scenarios, so even if there were some specified confidence level required - e.g. minimum 75% probability - how on earth do you actually work out what the actual number is ? In other words, if ASADA has to 'get' 75%+ to get a conviction, how does the tribunal look at the evidence and work out what percentage ASADA has actually got ?

I don't know that there are any precise requirements for 'beyond reasonable doubt' either - I think the principle is just that each juror / judge decides for themselves what that means in reality.

It's a subjective area, and there's no way around it.

Na I understand. Just love to minimize the "subjective" as we have been the constant victim of the "subjective" the last couple of years. 'Comfortable satisfaction" just seemed like a casual term but knowing now that is close to "beyond reasonable doubt" makes me feel better.

 

[The Dustbin]

ASADA would have pored over every email and text hoping to find some reference to Essendon. The fact that it isn't there says a lot. Our lawyers at the tribunal should stress this.

It was a paper receipt (trail) that led the ACC to EFC. Up until then the investigation was initiated to look in illegal activities of bikies and bikie gangs. It was pure fluke the ACC stumbled across what they did.

 

[scottmclaren]

It was a paper receipt (trail) that led the ACC to EFC. Up until then the investigation was initiated to look in illegal activities of bikies and bikie gangs. It was pure fluke the ACC stumbled across what they did.

Wasn't it Carlton spies

 

[The Dustbin]

Wasn't it Carlton spies

No. Carlton didn't tip the ACC off.

 

[yaco55]

I firmly felt at the time, and still do, that ASADA have not collected a heap of 'new' evidence.. they are merely pursuing a weak case as it is better than being seen to be doing nothing.

If the reports are correct and ASADA have recorded answers like "yeah maybe, that sounds familiar" as 'positive response' then it is highly likely the case falls over. I am surprised the players weren't more circumspect with their answers, and I think that falls into why we took the legal action we did.

Really the players should have been more prepared to deflect answers and ensure there was no ambiguity. I would also imagine that is why ASADA has not been keen to give them second interviews. I suspect that by the time it makes a tribunal, the players answers will be more like "no, at no time was I give TB4". Going to be very hard for ASADA to prove otherwise.

That is why I would be interested to see if it makes it through an ADRVP.. as I would imagine that most responses to the SCN are going to be very clear cut "I did not receive TB4" and thus ASADA may struggle to prove that last part (as Lance explained) to 'beyond comfortable satisfaction'.

Remembering that the ONLY burden of proof required to issue a SCN (which is all ASADA have done thus far) is "doping may have, potentially, maybe, possibly occurred"

So SCN, in a case without a positive test, does not = automatic ROF.

My take is that the AFL/AFLPA/ASADA telling players that they would be OK,led to players not being circumspect enough with their interviews - For this I hold the AFL accountable.

And ultimately the AFL is the key determinant - They do an NRL ( stand down players ) and the players will run for deals.

 

[yaco55]

If SC is issued, is their is time limit that a RoF entry must be made in?

I want to see if McDonut has brass balls like J Hird and pushes for RoF entry before federal court appeal. He may end up with 34 athletes suing for RoF entry made from an unlawful investigation.

This is why I am suprised that ASADA is re-issuing the SC's before the completion of the Federal Court. Especially when the next Fed Court hearing is November 10 and there may be no decision on the appeal this year. And this is another reason why i don't understand Hird's appeal.

 

[Aussie Assault]

View attachment 86788

Greatest thing I've seen all day.

I save that quote each day for when I've just stepped out of the shower

 

[yaco55]

No. Carlton didn't tip the ACC off.

My understanding is that Carlton spoke to the AFL - Hence the secret ASADA tests of 2012.

 

[yaco55]

If players only miss 3 games then i see no point in getting rid of Hird.

This post is another in the delusional thread - One game or two years is the same - Club will have a clause in his contract.

 

[BOMBERS 4 LIFE!!!!]

This post is another in the delusional thread - One game or two years is the same - Club will have a clause in his contract.

What if the players still want to keep him?

imo the players still hold the belief that the club and Hirdy did nothing wrong and it's all Danks fault.

 

[yaco55]

What if the players still want to keep him?

imo the players still hold the belief that the club and Hirdy did nothing wrong and it's all Danks fault.

A clause in the contract will over-ride everything - And if the players still want Hird after they are suspended, then say are more stupid, then I can ever imagine.

 

[Zephyr Effekt]

http://m.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/asada-says-showcause-notices-wont-be-rushed-20141013-115e07.html

The Australian Sports Anti-Doping Authority appears determined to ensure its evidence against the 34 Essendon players is bullet proof, declaring it won't be rushed into re-issuing show-cause notices.

While the anti-doping body said on Monday its intention was to "fast-track" the distribution of the show-cause notices, its primary objective remained "thoroughness".

This is just mind boggling.

ASADA won't rush to reissue SCN's because they want to ensure their evidence is bullet proof & their primary objective is thoroughness.

So the evidence for the original SCN'S that were issued wasn't bullet proof, & their primary objective wasn't thoroughness?

Sounds like ASADA didn't have faith in the evidence collected & their primary objective was to go fishing for deals.

Deals would have resulted in ASADA not having to provide any of the so called bullet proof evidence, how convenient.

 

[The Scales]

While the anti-doping body said on Monday its intention was to "fast-track" the distribution of the show-cause notices, its primary objective remained "thoroughness".

This is just mind boggling.

Sounds like ASADA didn't have faith in the evidence collected & their primary objective was to go fishing for deals.

This is why I am so wary of "splintering" amongst the players. One dodgy deal to fast track a resolution will cast a pall on all the other players determination to plead innocent of any breach of the ASADA/WADA code(s).

50+ pages of individualised "evidence" in an amended SCN would have to be intimidating. I'm hoping like hell the players recognize the "overkill" aspect of ASADA's newest gambit, and stick to their guns.

Make ASADA prove you were tainted, don't give them the gun and the ammo in the hope of quick relief. Let ASADA show the public the value for $$$'s invested - by making them present their iron-clad case.

 

[CBombers17]

A clause in the contract will over-ride everything - And if the players still want Hird after they are suspended, then say are more stupid, then I can ever imagine.

How about we just cross that bridge if we come to it.

At some stage (now) we have to move forward and set our path around what is our current situation.

Leave the it's buts and maybes to the "media" and the sanctimonious on the HTB.

 

[The Dustbin]

My understanding is that Carlton spoke to the AFL - Hence the secret ASADA tests of 2012.

That's different to the ACC.

The ACC were originally investigating the bikies.

 

[cymarak]

Maybe ASADA are simply stalling to try to increase pressure on the players to take deals ?

 

[Mercurial89]

A clause in the contract will over-ride everything - And if the players still want Hird after they are suspended, then say are more stupid, then I can ever imagine.

Wow...so if the players want Hird as coach even if they accept a deal to get this over with they are stupid? I get that you think Hird should go if a player misses a game (yes i know you do there are about 10 posts in the last 3 pages from you stating it, no need ot repeat it) but you cant honestly think you are in any position to call them stupid when you know two fifths of f**** all about what happens between the players and him?
If they support him they have a reason too and since its their lives/careers you calling them stupid for possibly wanting a say in who is their coach is utterly ridiculous.

 

[rines]

Maybe ASADA are simply stalling to try to increase pressure on the players to take deals ?

This x 10000

How funny that again we are facing 'delays'.. how much farking time do they need to make something 'bulletproof' that should have been 'bulletproof' before they issued the first lot of SCN's in June ffs!

I have no doubt they are making sure this is delayed to just before the start of next season.. so ensure the pressure for deals is ramped up because no player wants to be 'provisionally suspended' pending a tribunal.

Dirty tactics by a corrupt and filthy organisation. Disgusting at every level.

I would suggest that if you haven't found 'bulletproof' evidence in 18 months.. there isn't a lot out there you arseclowns.

 

[rumply]

ASADA’s star witness won’t play ball on Essendon allegations

• CHIP LE GRAND
• THE AUSTRALIAN
• OCTOBER 14, 2014 12:00AM

THE Australian Sports Anti-Doping Authority is yet to convince its star witness, peptide importer Shane Charter, to provide testimony against 34 current and former Essendon players accused of taking a banned substance.

The Australian understands discussions are continuing between Mr Charter and ASADA, which has agreed to fast-track its anti-doping proceedings against the 34 AFL players following a request from their lawyers for a speedy resolution to the supplements saga.

Mr Charter is ASADA’s most important witness. Its circumstantial case that Thymosin Beta-4, a banned peptide, was administered to Essendon players during the 2012 season relies heavily on documents, emails and text messages provided by Mr Charter to ASADA investigators last year.

In May, detectives arrested Mr Charter and questioned him about drug-related allegations. They also executed search warrants at his Sunbury home, north of Melbourne, and seized computers and documents.



The 45-year-old, self-styled anti-ageing expert was released without charge. He has since had no access to any of the documents on which his previous evidence to ASADA is based.

Without access to files held by police or ASADA, Mr Charter may be unwilling to testify and expose himself to cross-examination by lawyers for the current and former Essendon players. He has asked ASADA to provide him with a brief of the evidence before he agrees to testify.

Police sources yesterday confirmed that computers seized from Mr Charter were still awaiting analysis.

A senior ASADA source expressed confidence that Mr Charter would testify.

Lawyers for the players are eager to question him about peptides he imported from China in December 2011 and whether he provided others to Melbourne compounding pharmacist Nima Alavi.

ASADA’s case is that raw materials for Thymosin Beta-4 imported by Mr Charter from a large Chinese peptide manufacturer were compounded by Mr Alavi and provided to Essendon sports scientist Stephen Dank.

Chip Le Grand ‏@Melbchief 51m51 minutes ago
Headline not quite right. Charter probably will testify but intriguing that ASADA hasn't locked in its key witness.