The Suns and their recruiter

[immortalmike]

And yet there are people going nuts when its suggested that Cordy be left out as Boyd would be the only tall, and others who want Stringer playing midfield. Crameri doesn't take contested marks and is clearly not KP. Look I think you are literally stretching our players to prove your point. I think you are incorrect.

And being specific, I'd swap all of our big blokes for all of GCS' in a microsecond. And no, I don't count Crameri, Bont or Stringer, or Macrae or Libba or Dalhaus as big blokes.

We should of course move on...

I'm not sure I'm stretching anything, look up their official heights if you like. People go nuts about everything on this board, you have a discussion going on about turfing Wood after he tweaked a hammy FFS. We also seemed to look better in both games when Cordy and Redpath were subbed out and Crameri played as a tall, funny that. It's a pretty simple I don't agree with you and think in time our spine wil prove objectively superior to theirs.

 

[BRWB]

I'm not sure I'm stretching anything, look up their official heights if you like. People go nuts about everything on this board, you have a discussion going on about turfing Wood after he tweaked a hammy FFS. We also seemed to look better in both games when Cordy and Redpath were subbed out and Crameri played as a tall, funny that. It's a pretty simple I don't agree with you and think in time our spine wil prove objectively superior to theirs.

I do agree with you that we look better when Redpath and Cordy go off, of course that might just be due to them being quite shit, and any team looks better when their shit players go off....but that would just reinforce the view that our talls are largely shit in comparison to GCS', wouldn't it..

We've done this to death. Let's agree to disagree again. I think GCS' big blokes are and will be better than ours as a collective unit, you don't. (And no I don't include Stringer or Crameri in the discussion, because, I'm sorry they simply just aren't KPPs despite what you might think, well today anyway)

Stringer will be a midfielder that rests forward, he has all the insticts of an attacking, clearance getting, goal kicking, beast mid.
To not play him there would be a travesty. He even plays forward like a mid in that he's more likely to goal from a stoppage or general play than a lead and mark.

I'm not saying he should play there full time next year. But he should start building up to it.
His long distance running is definitely a weakness now, but I don't think it'll be a problem long term. He's only had one AFL preseason ffs.
I have seen very little evidence that he is a great contested mark as you keep saying. He's good one on one but in pack situations he's better roving. Further his stoppage ability will be more of a weapon following the ball than stuck freezing his arse in the forward line.
Respectfully disagree that he hasn't shown much as a mid, he was touted as a future no 1 when playing midfield as a junior and dominated earlier this year as a mid in the VFL.

His tank will get better as he ages, if it doesn't sure his best bet is as a forward. But I see no reason why this would be the case.

Superstar mids are not a dime a dozen. All of Voss, Ablett and Ruciutto could've been 50 goal a year forwards but they were played in the most important part of the ground. Why? Because that's where you can influence the game most. I'd rather Stringer get it 25 to 30 times a game than ten or so. I think 70:30 mid:forward split is what he ends up and I think people will understand why when he plays there.

Respectfully disagree on Johnno. Could've been one of the greatest wingmen of all time. Instead he was forced to be a six foot tall forward. The fact that he was still a superstar is a testament to the player he was.

Because there's diminishing returns. For example there's probably only 5 mids in the league who can run like Daniel Cross but you'd hardly say the players who play on him are liabilities.
Further Stringer is almost wasted as a full time forward. I want him to get the ball more not less, top three in our side for disposal and has an awesome burst. Natural mid for mine.
Let's not waste him like we did Johnno.

That's why many of us want Stringer in the middle. Elite burst.

 

[Mutt]

I've seen Lynch hyped on our board by many posters on this Board alone. Guess we will find out if its going to be the very players you are dissing that may well stop us winning a premiership!!

An eg from 2010 redo draft thread...

Fair go - I wasn't dissing the GC players. I said they are better than ours but, with the possible exception of May, are not elite. Some on here were fawning over them and I just feel they haven't really delivered yet. Had they, Gold Coast would have been playing finals last year and wouldn't have lost to StKilda and Melbourne thus far this season.

 

[BRWB]

Fair go - I wasn't dissing the GC players. I said they are better than ours but, with the possible exception of May, are not elite. Some on here were fawning over them and I just feel they haven't really delivered yet. Had they, Gold Coast would have been playing finals last year and wouldn't have lost to StKilda and Melbourne thus far this season.

Some comparisons for you between Lynch and Jarryd Roughead (hint very similar numbers), and further below, Kurt Tippet (who he kills). What does Lynch have to do for you to rate him??

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/...85&type=A&fid1=P&fopt1=2014&fid2=P&fopt2=2014

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/...50&type=A&fid1=P&fopt1=2014&fid2=P&fopt2=2014

 

[Mutt]

Some comparisons for you between Lynch and Jarryd Roughead (hint very similar numbers), and further below, Kurt Tippet (who he kills). What does Lynch have to do for you to rate him??

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/...85&type=A&fid1=P&fopt1=2014&fid2=P&fopt2=2014

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/...50&type=A&fid1=P&fopt1=2014&fid2=P&fopt2=2014

I'm not wanting to be disrespectful because I think you are a well reasoned and thoughtful contributor to our board, however I'm not really interested in a never ending argument about a team that I detest and really don't care about. Sorry. I've given you my opinion and have better things to do with my life on a Friday night (such as chicken burritos and Corona.)

 

[immortalmike]

I do agree with you that we look better when Redpath and Cordy go off, of course that might just be due to them being quite shit, and any team looks better when their shit players go off....but that would just reinforce the view that our talls are largely shit in comparison to GCS', wouldn't it..

We've done this to death. Let's agree to disagree again. I think GCS' big blokes are and will be better than ours as a collective unit, you don't. (And no I don't include Stringer or Crameri in the discussion, because, I'm sorry they simply just aren't KPPs despite what you might think, well today anyway)

Not sure what those quotes were getting at when I've already acknowledged in this thread that I want Stringer to be a long term mid and that I'd prefer we find someone else to play CHF. Fair low blow actually, smacks of someone who'd rather win a point than have a discussion.

 

[maddog37]

Settle down folks.

 

[fronkalicious]

Said it before, but does Steven may remind anyone else of a young Roughead (not ours)??? Rate that kid so highly.

Part of me also wonders whether there's more playing out behind the scenes around the Karmichael hunt stuff than has been made public.

 

[Yojimbo]

Said it before, but does Steven may remind anyone else of a young Roughead (not ours)??? Rate that kid so highly.

Part of me also wonders whether there's more playing out behind the scenes around the Karmichael hunt stuff than has been made public.

Jarryd Roughead and Steven May could be related, size, weight and body
shape as well as physical attributes. Jarryd strikes me as more of a Taylor
Swift fan though.

I am a Karmichael Hunt fan his full body cramps were a testament to how
hard it is to convert a power athlete to an aerobic athlete. You don't
want to open pandoras box on the other issue that octopus has tentacles
and they are far reaching.

 

[Dogsman16]

Prefer Stringer in the forward line to be totally honest. I know this subject has been done to death but Stringer and T.Boyd can be the best 1 - 2 punch in the game. I haven't looked at the stats exactly but the reason Stringer is kicking more goals from general play/stopppages etc is because at the moment he simply isn't nailing the set shots. In the past 11 games at AFL level he would have doubled any of dogs player for inside 50 marks, contested marks inside 50 etc. He is superb at finding space inside 50 and he is a wonderful leadup target not to mention the damage he can do when the ball hits the ground.

IMO Stringer probably will never have the tank like Johnno (laughable that people think he was wasted in the forward line) did to play and long minutes in the midfield. But his touches mean more than anybody else because A) he kicks goals and B) is very good at setting them up and his forward pressure his also great.

Stringer doesn't have the tank to run two ways in the midfield which is so important with our zone coverage/tendancy to be cut open through the corridor on occasion. Fit and Healthy he will kick 50+ this year, and would kick even more if he was a better set shot. Can't move him away from the forward line.

 

[Some Idiot]

I couldnt say - Finey lauded Prestia, but he said Bennell and Swallow not reaching potential - alluding to consistency of performance I guess.

Theres no doubt they have picked a fair few players with talent - how could they not, with a shotgun approach to draft picks, but at some point talent has to translate to performance.

Swallow won their best and fairest last year ahead of Prestia for reference. Bennell is definitely too inconsistent at this stage.

 

[paul scholes]

Gotta say Clayton's been given the keys to a Lamborghini and he's driven it into the surf on the golden strip. Far to many skinny skilful types and not enough grunt . The issue for them is the heavy reliance on Ablett, its allowed to many of their younger to have an easy way out. The whole "Gazza will get us out of this" seems to filter through to their players.

 

[paul scholes]

Swallow won their best and fairest last year ahead of Prestia for reference. Bennell is definitely too inconsistent at this stage.

Guys like Bennell and Matera and a few others play on their own terms, and even Harbrow does as well.

 

[Anja_Nees]

He is better than most, his longevity in the industry proves that.
Besides how easy is it to make a future prediction on a 17yo effort in years to come?
If we judged Bontempelli on effort advice from his coaches, he wouldn't be at the club.

I spoke to an official at the club at one of our Canberra games. While they thought Clayton was exceptional at spotting talent on the footy field, the consensus was that he wasn't that big on evaluating their character. Some recruiters (thankfully Dalrymple included) take a lot of time to get to know the players and their families and speak to, for example, coaches, school teachers etc.

I note what you say about Bont (I haven't heard that but I'm sure you've got it from somewher) but this is why I think we had some many blokes on our list who appeared to be quite talented but just didn't do it. Clayton apparently picked on talent solely and thought the rest would take care of itself. His record outside of first round picks from 2003-2008 is very poor. Even Morris, a rare rookie list highlight, wasn't his choice. I think he should take some of the blame for 2011-2014's slump.

I've heard that he has the best eye for talent going a number of times. I don't think he's a hack and there's no doubt he picked some gems. I also accept its hard to pick on 17 year olds' form and some duds are absolutely inevitable. I just think someone with his lofty reputation should have a better record and frankly the Suns have had every advantage they could have (including, now, a coach who we know can get the best out of a list) but are struggling.

 

[ErnieSigley]

I spoke to an official at the club at one of our Canberra games. While they thought Clayton was exceptional at spotting talent on the footy field, the consensus was that he wasn't that big on evaluating their character. Some recruiters (thankfully Dalrymple included) take a lot of time to get to know the players and their families and speak to, for example, coaches, school teachers etc.

I note what you say about Bont (I haven't heard that but I'm sure you've got it from somewher) but this is why I think we had some many blokes on our list who appeared to be quite talented but just didn't do it. Clayton apparently picked on talent solely and thought the rest would take care of itself. His record outside of first round picks from 2003-2008 is very poor. Even Morris, a rare rookie list highlight, wasn't his choice. I think he should take some of the blame for 2011-2014's slump.

I've heard that he has the best eye for talent going a number of times. I don't think he's a hack and there's no doubt he picked some gems. I also accept its hard to pick on 17 year olds' form and some duds are absolutely inevitable. I just think someone with his lofty reputation should have a better record and frankly the Suns have had every advantage they could have (including, now, a coach who we know can get the best out of a list) but are struggling.

Again how do you judge a person's character at 16/17yo? They are kids.
Lance Franklin needed a Buddy. Cooney was supposedly arrogant.
You would have thought the recruiter role is spotting talent first and foremost, the club afterwards plays more a role defining their character.

 

[Anja_Nees]

Again how do you judge a person's character at 16/17yo? They are kids.
Lance Franklin needed a Buddy. Cooney was supposedly arrogant.
You would have thought the recruiter role is spotting talent first and foremost, the club afterwards plays more a role defining their character.

I don't subscribe to the idea you can't tell anything about a kid at 16/17. You absolutely should do your due diligence. Yes, 'good' kids can stuff up and people with questionable attitudes can reform but generally I would think kids that are solid citizens who are completely dedicated to footy (ie Cross, Boyd and Morris) are pretty safe bets in terms of character and I don't think any club had a culture that could have dragged Dayle Garlett into line. They're at the extreme end and most players probably fall in the middle somewhere but I don't think you can assume a footy club will belt players into shape. I think character, to the extent you can assess it, is relevant. If you think Richmond don't regret taking Troy Taylor and Ben Cousins you're kidding yourself.

More to the point some kids are difficult and won't listen to criticism and some absorb feedback like a sponge. I would think you can at least get a sense of this by speaking to people who have dealt with them and while it's not like they can't improve I think you should at least consider it when drafting. This was a criticism levelled at Clayton. Reportedly Dalrymple takes it very seriously. Time will tell if he measures up. On current form I think he's doing very well.

Either way a lot of his drafts after 2001 were very poor. Take out first rounders and there ain't much quality left. I don't think he's terrible but he had a lofty reputation which I dont think was justified. I think it's taken a bit of a beating since.

 

[ErnieSigley]

I don't subscribe to the idea you can't tell anything about a kid at 16/17. You absolutely should do your due diligence. Yes, 'good' kids can stuff up and people with questionable attitudes can reform but generally I would think kids that are solid citizens who are completely dedicated to footy (ie Cross, Boyd and Morris) are pretty safe bets in terms of character and I don't think any club had a culture that could have dragged Dayle Garlett into line. They're at the extreme end and most players probably fall in the middle somewhere but I don't think you can assume a footy club will belt players into shape. I think character, to the extent you can assess it, is relevant. If you think Richmond don't regret taking Troy Taylor and Ben Cousins you're kidding yourself.

More to the point some kids are difficult and won't listen to criticism and some absorb feedback like a sponge. I would think you can at least get a sense of this by speaking to people who have dealt with them and while it's not like they can't improve I think you should at least consider it when drafting. This was a criticism levelled at Clayton. Reportedly Dalrymple takes it very seriously. Time will tell if he measures up. On current form I think he's doing very well.

Either way a lot of his drafts after 2001 were very poor. Take out first rounders and there ain't much quality left. I don't think he's terrible but he had a lofty reputation which I dont think was justified. I think it's taken a bit of a beating since.

I never said you can't tell anything about a kid but you certainly know a lot less about them than mature adults.

Many the examples you've given are as adults. Who knew Cousins was of bad character at 17yo? Who knew of Cross, let alone that he was a manic trainer at the same age, etc.

Cross Boyd Morris, Taylor and Cousins to Richmond were taken later in the draft and therefore we missed by many recruiters.

Gcs recruited 30 so kids and has a leadership hole from older players its would did you expect. Not sure how you can claim from this that can their recruiter gets soft players.

 

[go you pups]

Gotta say Clayton's been given the keys to a Lamborghini and he's driven it into the surf on the golden strip. Far to many skinny skilful types and not enough grunt . The issue for them is the heavy reliance on Ablett, its allowed to many of their younger to have an easy way out. The whole "Gazza will get us out of this" seems to filter through to their players.

Yep agreed

While GWS have had way more concessions than GC mainly due to the stupid mini drafts racking up all the draft picks those years, they have gone for players with grunt, like Mumford, Shaw and Ward.

GC have blokes like Stanley and Broughton but they offer bugger all to that team and Hallahan is a bit slow. They really need one or two 6 foot 2/3 mids who can win clearances and throw their weight around.

 

[GetDimmaBack]

Again how do you judge a person's character at 16/17yo? They are kids.
Lance Franklin needed a Buddy. Cooney was supposedly arrogant.
You would have thought the recruiter role is spotting talent first and foremost, the club afterwards plays more a role defining their character.

If the family and the education system haven't built some character in a kid, why would you expect the club to be able to do it?

 

[Doggies_13]

I think the suns problem is not enough hard nuts just a ton of spoon fed midfielders their one inside is Lonergan who they aren't playing

 

[paul scholes]

Again how do you judge a person's character at 16/17yo? They are kids.
Lance Franklin needed a Buddy. Cooney was supposedly arrogant.
You would have thought the recruiter role is spotting talent first and foremost, the club afterwards plays more a role defining their character.

Usually by speaking to their parents id guess, and also school teachers (not P.E) things like keeping a tidy room. Not saying it's a panacea of a good footballer.

 

[paul scholes]

Yep agreed

While GWS have had way more concessions than GC mainly due to the stupid mini drafts racking up all the draft picks those years, they have gone for players with grunt, like Mumford, Shaw and Ward.

GC have blokes like Stanley and Broughton but they offer bugger all to that team and Hallahan is a bit slow. They really need one or two 6 foot 2/3 mids who can win clearances and throw their weight around.

Gold Coast recruited fringe hardmen, where GWS made it a recruiting policy. Put it this way you'd put the house on GWS to win a final before them.

 

[paul scholes]

I don't subscribe to the idea you can't tell anything about a kid at 16/17. You absolutely should do your due diligence. Yes, 'good' kids can stuff up and people with questionable attitudes can reform but generally I would think kids that are solid citizens who are completely dedicated to footy (ie Cross, Boyd and Morris) are pretty safe bets in terms of character and I don't think any club had a culture that could have dragged Dayle Garlett into line. They're at the extreme end and most players probably fall in the middle somewhere but I don't think you can assume a footy club will belt players into shape. I think character, to the extent you can assess it, is relevant. If you think Richmond don't regret taking Troy Taylor and Ben Cousins you're kidding yourself.

More to the point some kids are difficult and won't listen to criticism and some absorb feedback like a sponge. I would think you can at least get a sense of this by speaking to people who have dealt with them and while it's not like they can't improve I think you should at least consider it when drafting. This was a criticism levelled at Clayton. Reportedly Dalrymple takes it very seriously. Time will tell if he measures up. On current form I think he's doing very well.

Either way a lot of his drafts after 2001 were very poor. Take out first rounders and there ain't much quality left. I don't think he's terrible but he had a lofty reputation which I dont think was justified. I think it's taken a bit of a beating since.

He F***** our first rounders up . That's what can win you flags. Cannot bugger up your first round like he did