Strategy A BIG.. BIG.. ISSUE.

[lukiuslion]

There has been a fair bit of sporadic discussion on various threads as to what we do about our Key Position concerns and even a KPP watch thread. This discussion could arguably continue in the Trade/ Free agent thread, but it is such a unique/ unprecedented area of intrigue at our club that I think its worthy ATM, this isn't only about the sort of players available, but the direction we take in obtaining them and when .

Our midfield is ready to go, we have the kids in place (GENERALLY SPEAKING) but we lack, have basically zero, KPP's in the 25+ age range. Merrett, Staker, McGuane, McGuire will not feature in our next finals team, I only see Merrett on the list next season.

Do we have 3-5 years to wait until Freeman, Paps, Clarke, Close, Gardiner are genuine main stays? Are they all going to make it, will they develop getting flogged by and average of 50 points over the next 2 years?

Do we?

- Continue on our way, develop these Guys and put our faith in them, hope to kick enough from the midfield and as Leppa mentioned - keep our picks for the draft from now on, stay the course and continue to go young.

- All picks are on the table (potentially pick 1), our midfield is ready now, lets go ham for Carlisle, Henderson, Rance, we need two top tier Key's, the lisle thing doesen't work and is a waste of time, they must be A-grade or it's nothing..

- It's unlikely that we will land a big fish, so lets keep our picks and fill the void with B-grade players like Tayte Pears and Walker from the cats - they are not A-grade, but they won't cost much, get 3-4 of them in ASAP to fill the void. It's better than nothing.

- Lets top up with some older players that are potentially on the fringe, example Andrew Mackie, to come in and help the young Guys while they develop.

- A mix of the above

- It's not really that important, it's part of a cycle, we will be right - let nature take it course.

What comes with each option, can we pull any of them off? I am not sure how we ended up here so quickly, as Leppa's main focus was to balance the list, the influx of mids has perhaps thrown even more chaos into the mix. I feel we are in serious need of a serious solution.

 

[dlanod]

Nice range of options detailed, and I'm going to be interested to see which way the club goes. After the Ryder rumours last year (and Hogan, and Franklin, and J. Riewoldt, and Tippett) I do think we're shopping in the top tier but with no success so far. Instead we've fallen back on fringe players to plug the gap until we do succeed.

I do think part of my preference for the top tier shopping is because of the subliminal message in your post...

- All picks are on the table (potentially pick 1), our midfield is ready now, lets go ham for Carlisle, Henderson, Rance, we need two top tier Key's, the lisle thing doesen't work and is a waste of time, they must be A-grade or it's nothing..

...LET'S GO HAM!!!

 

[cheekyLionsFan]

Nice range of options detailed, and I'm going to be interested to see which way the club goes. After the Ryder rumours last year (and Hogan, and Franklin, and J. Riewoldt, and Tippett) I do think we're shopping in the top tier but with no success so far. Instead we've fallen back on fringe players to plug the gap until we do succeed.

I do think part of my preference for the top tier shopping is because of the subliminal message in your post...



...LET'S GO HAM!!!

I like the look of Ham and I am unsure if i want to give it up for a key forward.

 

[James North]

 

[lukiuslion]

Did you have anything you wanted to add to the discussion mate?

 

[jjami15]

Good thread and it is actually a lot that I have thought about as you and others here have. My choices would be;

• Continue on our way, develop these Guys and put our faith in them, hope to kick enough from the midfield and as Leppa mentioned - keep our picks for the draft from now on, stay the course and continue to go young.

• It's unlikely that we will land a big fish, so lets keep our picks and fill the void with B-grade players like Tayte Pears and Walker from the cats - they are not A-grade, but they won't cost much, get 3-4 of them in ASAP to fill the void. It's better than nothing.

A combination of those two for me. Finals are a pipe dream at the moment and are at least 5 years away minimum and the sooner we realise this the better. Our
Midfield is ready but that's it and sadly and I don't put them in the highly rated midfields either e.g. Freo, swans, Hawks. Getting some of the B graders would stem the flow of pain whilst we try to get as much talent into the club ASAP via the draft. Over the next 2/3 years I would actually let 2/3 of our best older players go for first round picks to accelerate this as well. This year it looks likely Aish and I would let Luey go via FA giving us hopefully 4 picks in the top 25. Not going to discuss the Keays machinations here and I tell us what, if, if God forbid we don't win a game (yes, very pessimistic) then I would be expecting a compo pick as well. Yep, dreaming I know.

 

[Kevvo]

There has been a fair bit of sporadic discussion on various threads as to what we do about our Key Position concerns and even a KPP watch thread. This discussion could arguably continue in the Trade/ Free agent thread, but it is such a unique/ unprecedented area of intrigue at our club that I think its worthy ATM, this isn't only about the sort of players available, but the direction we take in obtaining them and when .

Our midfield is ready to go, we have the kids in place (GENERALLY SPEAKING) but we lack, have basically zero, KPP's in the 25+ age range. Merrett, Staker, McGuane, McGuire will not feature in our next finals team, I only see Merrett on the list next season.

Do we have 3-5 years to wait until Freeman, Paps, Clarke, Close, Gardiner are genuine main stays? Are they all going to make it, will the devalop getting flogged by and average of 50 points over the next 2 years?

Do we?

- Continue on our way, develop these Guys and put our faith in them, hope to kick enough from the midfield and as Leppa mentioned - keep our picks for the draft from now on, stay the course and continue to go young.

- All picks are on the table (potentially pick 1), our midfield is ready now, lets go ham for Carlisle, Henderson, Rance, we need two top tier Key's, the lisle thing doesen't work and is a waste of time, they must be A-grade or it's nothing..

- It's unlikely that we will land a big fish, so lets keep our picks and fill the void with B-grade players like Tayte Pears and Walker from the cats - they are not A-grade, but they won't cost much, get 3-4 of them in ASAP to fill the void. It's better than nothing.

- Lets top up with some older players that are potentially on the fringe, example Andrew Mackie, to come in and help the young Guys while they develop.

- A mix of the above

- It's not really that important, it's part of a cycle, we will be right - let nature take it course.

What comes with each option, can we pull any of them off? I am not sure how we ended up here so quickly, as Leppa's main focus was to balance the list, the influx of mids has perhaps thrown even more chaos into the mix. I feel we are in serious need of a serious solution.

I think this is a good thread to have.

In general, I think we're fairly committed to developing the kids we have, and I reckon that's the right call. I expect that we'll throw a lot of money at Rance, since as a free agent he costs us no picks (which we'd want to keep) and only salary cap space (which we have a glut of).

Leppa has said a few times that he's not really interested in mid-tier KPP additions, and I expect they're probably serious about that. No doubt a senior player would ease the pressure on the kids a bit, so I guess its an educated gamble on whether more games or fewer games with less pressure is better for those kids.

Looking at how the keys at GC and GWS have developed makes me think that it's not totally unviable to rely primarily on getting games into them.

 

[pulpdriver]

I'd like to a substantial offer to Rance and then push in all our trade chips for the best key forward we can bring in. I don't think we can afford to wait for one of our forward options to develop into the player we need now and we've had little success with B tier targets. There's already enough question marks and we potentially miss the prime years of our mids. Rance and Henderson would be my targets and they will both have other suitors. We have money to offer, a list that on paper looks like it could rise up the ladder with the right spinal pillars and in Rance's case, a friend and mentor as coach. Go hard. Our list doesn't have as many holes as it did prior, we can afford to trade a fair bit for the forward we need.

 

[lukiuslion]

Nice range of options detailed, and I'm going to be interested to see which way the club goes. After the Ryder rumours last year (and Hogan, and Franklin, and J. Riewoldt, and Tippett) I do think we're shopping in the top tier but with no success so far. Instead we've fallen back on fringe players to plug the gap until we do succeed.

I do think part of my preference for the top tier shopping is because of the subliminal message in your post...



...LET'S GO HAM!!!

lol I knew the Ham reference would gain some interest. Yeah that's where I am at, whilst the Lisle + Paine approach hasn't worked so far, I feel its still our only realistic choice.

 

[dlanod]

lol I knew the Ham reference would gain some interest. Yeah that's where I am at, whilst the Lisle + Paine approach hasn't worked so far, I feel its still our only realistic choice.

I will note that the "big fish" and "mid tier" aren't mutually exclusive. We keep striking out on big fish, but we don't actually give up anything until we succeed. I definitely hope we keep trying, even if the backup plan (and we should definitely have one, even if it's "develop our current guys") is otherwise.

 

[lukiuslion]

I will note that the "big fish" and "mid tier" aren't mutually exclusive. We keep striking out on big fish, but we don't actually give up anything until we succeed. I definitely hope we keep trying, even if the backup plan (and we should definitely have one, even if it's "develop our current guys") is otherwise.

That's it. that's why I think a mix is a good scenario. TBH - as an example (and I know this wouldn't be easy or likely), if we could bring in Rance, Pears, Mackie, a second tier tall, mature age (VFL - NEAFL), and obtain another through the draft, I would be happy. We should be able to do that and keep our first round pick in theory, I think the 'mix' is the most likely and possible way to go. Then if Rance or something similar falls through, at least we arn't in the exact position we are now, next year.

 

[Quigley]

I think it is important to look at what we have and what we have coming through the academy as well.

Personally I do not go with the tier 2 guys. We have tried that and had no luck. Further we have quite a few guys coming through who should be as good or better than those types.

I also do not worry about our KPD. Clarke and Gardner look to be top shelf options and they will be young and developed enough after another offseason or two. Merrett plays another year as the other KPD and between them they are a good trio. Andrews is a bit behind the other two body wise but long term he should be a backman and I have a lot of confidence in him. Beasley is probably a third tall type but has good athleticism and as he develops strength could easily be a Patfull type. Watts is a wait and see. The other one who I have been advocating for a move into defense is Close and he has a good body shape and excellent endurance which should allow him to go with most CHFs. All up I do not think we need to spend a heap of money on the defensive side of the ball.

Up forward is where the problem is. We have quite a few young options already in place and another in Hipwood coming through this year. I would be confident that we should at least be able to get a 2nd and 3rd tall forward option out of that group. Whether we have a number 1 option remains to be seen. I would throw our number 1 pick this year at GWS and ask for Patton. He has had two knee recos and McCarthy and to a lesser extent Stewert have stepped up and are very good number 2 options to Cameron. Patton is gettable and his age profile fits nicely with what we need. He is a legitimate number one option that would be there for both the Rocky generation and the generation after. Hawkins I am less enthused about. He has had serious back issues and I think he wears down each year. I would not be wanting to rely on him come finals time and be paying him a heap for the privilege.

The other area which we should be looking at is an inside mid. We have very few clearance specialists and the ones we do have tend to be playing other roles. Over the next two years we have Keays, Wagner, Allison and Rolls all of whom look to be decent prospects and all of whom are outside in players. If we are looking like losing guys like Aish I would not be against coming up with a package to get a good inside player into the group. For example this year I would throw a heap of money at Sloane and package Aish to Adelaide (with other things) and see if that gets us anywhere. Sloane would definately fill a need in that midfield group.

 

[SizeMatters]

Throw the sink at Rance and trade in Walker from the Cats. We have the young forward talent that is 3 or 4 years away what we do need is a bloke that can crash packs and throw his weight around. Lisle and Paine aren't those types and were never going to be those types. From what I have seen of Walker he knows how to use his body. He won't be an A grader but he provides a contest whilst still being able to kick 3 goals a game.

Takes the heat off Freeman and McStay as well and allow them to play as the 2nd and 3rd tall forwards.

 

[pulpdriver]

Throw the sink at Rance and trade in Walker from the Cats. We have the young forward talent that is 3 or 4 years away what we do need is a bloke that can crash packs and throw his weight around. Lisle and Paine aren't those types and were never going to be those types. From what I have seen of Walker he knows how to use his body. He won't be an A grader but he provides a contest whilst still being able to kick 3 goals a game.

Takes the heat off Freeman and McStay as well and allow them to play as the 2nd and 3rd tall forwards.

If he can average 3 goals a game he's an A grader but I'm wary: Cats have needed a second foil for Hawkins for a while before they got Clark and he didn't manage to get games.

 

[Kevvo]

..Snip...

Up forward is where the problem is. We have quite a few young options already in place and another in Hipwood coming through this year. I would be confident that we should at least be able to get a 2nd and 3rd tall forward option out of that group. Whether we have a number 1 option remains to be seen. I would throw our number 1 pick this year at GWS and ask for Patton. He has had two knee recos and McCarthy and to a lesser extent Stewert have stepped up and are very good number 2 options to Cameron. Patton is gettable and his age profile fits nicely with what we need. He is a legitimate number one option that would be there for both the Rocky generation and the generation after. Hawkins I am less enthused about. He has had serious back issues and I think he wears down each year. I would not be wanting to rely on him come finals time and be paying him a heap for the privilege.

This is an interesting suggestion. I was thinking a bit about Patton, when GWS were going so well on the weekend. As you say, he seems like he could be gettable. I just worry about the recurrence of ACLs. I really have no idea whether the risk factor increases substantially if you've done them once (or twice), but it seems like a big gamble.

 

[lions2010]

I will note that the "big fish" and "mid tier" aren't mutually exclusive. We keep striking out on big fish, but we don't actually give up anything until we succeed. I definitely hope we keep trying, even if the backup plan (and we should definitely have one, even if it's "develop our current guys") is otherwise.

I would go hard on Rance (as he is free agent), and trade in Sam Reid. Sam Reid can play the forward role while we develop the other key forwards around him

 

[Eons]

Pattons knees are an issue, would happily give GWS the pick we get for Aish if it's around that 8-12 mark, not sure he's worth pick 1 based on his injury history. Whether they accept that or not is another story, maybe a swap of later picks to get the deal done.

With our first pick who would you take Quigley if we did get Patton?

 

[Quigley]

Pattons knees are an issue, would happily give GWS the pick we get for Aish if it's around that 8-12 mark, not sure he's worth pick 1 based on his injury history. Whether they accept that or not is another story, maybe a swap of later picks to get the deal done.

With our first pick who would you take Quigley if we did get Patton?

I doubt we will end up with pick 1. Somewhere in the top 5 sure. Parish is a guy I like and has a bit of all around quality. Mathieson might be one who suits us with his ball winning ability. Schache still not out of the question if we wanted to load up on forward talent and if we did not make any moves I suggest he would be the one I would pick.

 

[Elixuh]

I think the time for recruiting tier 2s and club offshoots is now over if we want a decent forward line within the Rocky/Rich etc generation. We don't have the time to risk another failed development cycle. The age profile of our team is concerning with the lack of the forward line because if we don't remedy it THIS year (idk if next year is the latest possible time or if its this year) then I'm afraid we won't have time.

IMO getting Rance at this stage is secondary to getting in a proper forward line. Won't matter if we have Rance but no forward line.

 

[Schache It Off]

How much would Pears and Walker cost? 3rd round? Would really need to hold onto that 2nd round for Keays.

 

[lukiuslion]

How much would Pears and Walker cost? 3rd round? Would really need to hold onto that 2nd round for Keays.

Yeah I believe both would require 3rd rounders. A second rounder would be obvious overs IMO. I would happily take both if it meant that's all we had to part with. I think Walker, if given license, could be a good option. He will never be A grade but he could provide an option and has strength.. I think by the time he is 28 he could be at a level just under Cremeri now. I don't mind Pears game, Dons are just too stacked with talls and he can't get a look in. I would take both, if we also got Rance or Carlisle.

 

[Schache It Off]

Yeah I believe both would require 3rd rounders. A second rounder would be obvious overs IMO. I would happily take both if it meant that's all we had to part with. I think Walker, if given license, could be a good option. He will never be A grade but he could provide an option and has strength.. I think by the time he is 28 he could be at a level just under Cremeri now. I don't mind Pears game, Dons are just too stacked with talls and he can't get a look in. I would take both, if we also got Rance or Carlisle.

Rance, Carlisle/Dixon, Walker and Pears.
Would make up the bad start to the year.

 

[jonnobackpocket]

Ask Rance what he wants- give it too him. Trade for Sam Ried and he plays up forward along with tradeing Luey and a pick to Freo to get Taberner and later pick. Have a chat to Courtney Dempsey let him know he can play every week if he comes up here. Aish for Jeanch.

 

[Balony_pony16]

actually think our midfield is becoming a concern as much as our forwards... you always need 8 quality mids to take you deep into finals and atm the only guys I see truely be of top quality are Rich, Beams, Rockliff, Bundy and Taylor... guys like redden & Mayes are stalled or going backwards. Other fringe players I just cant get excited over. I am now thinking our midfield isnt "Ready to Go" and will still need a A graders to take us forward. So far our whole season has been bottom down due to our inept midfield & HB/HF rotations.

 

[carnthemlions]

Pears hasn't played in the AFL since 2013. Has had injury issues, but would surely be a good chance to be de-listed anyway.
We will need an experienced defender as depth next year as Maguire looks done, but I think there will be better players available.